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Igniz12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,494
Colossal weapons, sure. I'm more referring to 1.03 where they nerfed a ton of things to hell and back after I'd spent 50 hours respecing to a build that had become immediately useless.

The point is, there's no way of knowing whether or not the build you've been specing towards for 100 hours will be garbage tomorrow morning.
What build were you using? I'd argue the purpose of these patches have been to realign stuff that was out of wack and not nerfs outright.

Also, we got a ton of buffs to damn near every sorcery and incantation and a good amount of weapon arts, not just colossal weapons.
 

Reinhard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,651
Honestly people don't want to learn the game, they just want brain-dead easy mode. It's the only explanation I can find for these complaints.
Eh, I have very limited spell slots since Comet Azure and Ranni Dark Moon take up so much space, so I have to be very selective with what spells I pick for the remaining slots. Adula's Moonblade now offers nothing for me, might as well use my Ice Uchi or Ranni Dark Moon if I want to inflict freeze or Wing of Astel Nebula if I want to stagger + damage something.
 

brjuntinaar

Banned
Apr 23, 2018
447
Honestly people don't want to learn the game, they just want brain-dead easy mode. It's the only explanation I can find for these complaints.
Meh I don't agree with this, or the post you are quoting. I used Adula's quite a bit on my mage no-summon, no-ashes playthrough, and it seemed overall fairly balanced. It is primarily melee range (if you use it for the ranged attack, it pales in comparison to alternatives), has a long wind-up animation, and you have to commit very hard into magic in order to get the damage to the point where it is worth it. It also costs a fair amount of mana to cast, so unlike merely swinging a UGS where you can do so only stamina repercussions, you also have to buff your mana to a comfortable level to be able to use it consistently. In order to properly be compared with other weapons, it should be compared with other UGS's, and the high cost of + increasing both your magic and mana to be able to use it must be taken into account. UGS's on the other hand allow you to pump points into vitality and endurance, both of which also increase survivability.
 

tmdorsey

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,679
Georgia
I've seen a lot of people hate on the deathbird fights, but they're one of my favorite. What is it about the fights that people hate in particular? Or if it just the ones with the ghost flames? I feel like I'm fighting a Bloodborne version of this dude every time:

XDUvixQ.jpg


I like em so much I based my character appearance in both my playthroughs on them lol

It's particularly the Death Rite Bird fight with the flames and AOE attacks. I didn't mind the one in the Weeping Peninsula.

re:Malenia,

Having just got to her last night, I don't think the fight is really unfair or more impossible than any other boss battle I've fought to this point. It is classic FROM (based on Bloodborne and Seikro for me) where you have to stay on your toes or your dead.
 

Geinrendour

Member
Jun 3, 2018
362
Playing the PS4 version on a PS5 is the best option for you at this time.
Yea, I guess for consistency I might just buy a PS4 digital to play the Pro version on my PS5 but damn I was hoping things would be way better already. I'm not in hurry though, maybe the best approach is to wait for Sony to delivery the VRR for PS5 sometime this year (hopefully).
 

System2

Member
Oct 27, 2017
430
California
I see alot of talk about Adula's, personally I think it went from overpowered to balanced now. Before that was like the go to move for everything. Aoe? Adulas, Far Range? Adulas, Close Range? Definitely Adulas, Frost Buildup? Better use Adula. Now it limits Adulas to being good for Aoe and Close Range instead of every situation. The raw flat dmg got nerfed but it still does alot at close range and proccing Cold will always be useful.

Edit: I did see a post just now on the Adula Wiki explaining the exact changes. I guess the dmg% changes is pretty significant and it is kinda weird they also nerfed the frost build up. Il have to try a bunch of spells and compare again cause I Saw some talk about Carian Greatsword potentially being a better option which would be kinda messed up if true. But the main thing is Adula lost dmg but its chain cast is better now. But overall its still a nerf cause even chaincasting just gets you to where the dmg was prenerf.

Edit2: Yeah so I did some testing and I still feel like Adula is a really good spell. Even without Snow Hat (which you should be using anyways) its doing more dmg than Carian Greatsword, has better Aoe with range, still has good stagger, and applies Frost buildup (Remember the frost also shreds resistances + inital burst of dmg). I mean, I do agree that it is a rare spell and for that reason alone the dmg nerf shouldn't of been as high as it is but its definitely still a great spell. There are still some situations like on small enemies where the projectile could miss so I do hope they address that though.

IceCrag is also still a great spell, Great Glint Shard might be faster and more range but IceCrag does about the same damage while helping build up frost so its just kind of a trade off. It does alittle more dmg with Ice Hat too and I don't really find the range to be a big issue.
 
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Psychotron

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,685
If I transfer my save to PS5 from my PS4 copy, will I be able to play both independently? Like can I continue on my PS4 save and take things in a completely different direction from PS5?
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever™
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,592
Maybe that wasn't the whole point. Why are From's encounter design decisions only praised when they keep things as hard as possible?
Well, ok ... but maybe there's a middle ground? It's just really funny to see the other two chillin' over there just like "yeah, go ahead and fight our friend, we'll catch up with you in a minute". Maybe you kill one Crystallian and then when it dies, you find yourself in a 2v1 as they spawn in? It just seems really silly to have the other two not bothering at all with you, especially when those enemies are on the slower side of attacking.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,830
Even if you want to argue about Adula's damage, the nerf on Frost buildup was unnecessary on the spell.

I know Ranni's Dark Moon is the way to go for applying Frostbite but more variation is still welcome (it also proves that it didn't need to be nerfed on Adula).
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,556
São Paulo - Brazil
I do think that Waterfowl Dance is still a bit much in current form. TBH it feels like it isn't tuned to work the way it looks. It feels like it's supposed to be much easier to roll through the first two 3-hit combos, then get caught by the 3rd combo's follow-up explosion if you lose count and don't roll away.

Right now just the threat of it is enough to mess up most players and cause enough hesitation so they fail to capitalize on openings where Malenia should go down from poise break and take big damage. (To outpace her healing.)

People found an older version of the attack that was considerably easier to dodge in the datafiles. All you need to really fix the move and the fight is to make the first phase dodgeable. I wouldn't be surprised if they changed it in the last moments and didn't test it enough.
 

SDBurton

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,427
Do you have any tips for dodging the first waterfowl barrage? I didn't manage to figure that one out up close.

Once you get her to about 80-75% she'll most likely do the waterfowl dance. The strat I did as a melee was to get her down to that health threshold and then immediately run away. Once you have enough distance, try and bait it out by running at her for a second and immediately running in the other direction. If successfully baited, she'll whiff the first two flurries while you're running away from her. After the second flurry she'll do a skip hop before unleashing the third and fourth flurry. Once you see the skip hop roll INTO her once and then away from her twice and you'll avoid the third, fourth, and end shockwave of the flurry. Rinse and repeat once you get her to about 50% and 25%. Ditto for phase two.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,736
Of all the bosses in the game (I think I got them all aside Dragon Placideux or something, looking at my trophy list) Melania's "Judgment Cut" attack was the worst to deal with.
Everything in her fight is managable, even regen, even her second form crap but that attack ended most of my attempts.
 

RockmanBN

Visited by Knack - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,078
Cornfields
You have a lot of ways to fight Malenia. Unless you have a melee character that relies of rolling to dodge attacks. Then you fight her special attack.
Beat her Solo no summons with a dualhanded Sepeku Uchigatana and using the Crucible Feather Talisman for more leeway in my dodgerolls. Though that talisman does have a huge negative effect of taking 30% more damage with it equipped.
 

Shin Kojima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,035
Once you get her to about 80-75% she'll most likely do the waterfowl dance. The strat I did as a melee was to get her down to that health threshold and then immediately run away. Once you have enough distance, try and bait it out by running at her for a second and immediately running in the other direction. If successfully baited, she'll whiff the first two flurries while you're running away from her. After the second flurry she'll do a skip hop before unleashing the third and fourth flurry. Once you see the skip hop roll INTO her once and then away from her twice and you'll avoid the third, fourth, and end shockwave of the flurry. Rinse and repeat once you get her to about 50% and 25%. Ditto for phase two.
Yeah I guess I knew about the baiting and running away but I was just wondering if there was a way to dodge it at close range in case I wanna go shieldless at some point. I don't enjoy the baiting technique, I did that on my first clear.
 

iWannaHat

Member
Jul 1, 2019
1,327
Great patch!
What is guts though? Several people mentioned it and I don't have a clue.
Apologies if someone already answered this.

Guts it the main character in the manga Berserk. It is a huge inspiriation for much of the design and feel of Souls games.

Also the Ultra Greatsword is just straight up the weapon Guts uses in the manga.
 

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,332
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
Since the extended Patches questline finally gives you the last (known) gesture, I wonder if the next big patch will give us Millicent's armor set. Then again, she may have a role to play in the inevitable DLC.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,127
Once you get her to about 80-75% she'll most likely do the waterfowl dance. The strat I did as a melee was to get her down to that health threshold and then immediately run away. Once you have enough distance, try and bait it out by running at her for a second and immediately running in the other direction. If successfully baited, she'll whiff the first two flurries while you're running away from her. After the second flurry she'll do a skip hop before unleashing the third and fourth flurry. Once you see the skip hop roll INTO her once and then away from her twice and you'll avoid the third, fourth, and end shockwave of the flurry. Rinse and repeat once you get her to about 50% and 25%. Ditto for phase two.

That's what I read as well but in practice you have to spend the whole fight looking out for it, and one badly timed attack/counter-attack would leave you with no time to run safely away.

And that's just.... Annoying.

EDIT: I kinda misread your statement, my bad. But I've seen her do two waterfowl back-to back before so the threat of that attack is constant throughout the fight.
 
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Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,590
Yeah I guess I knew about the baiting and running away but I was just wondering if there was a way to dodge it at close range in case I wanna go shieldless at some point. I don't enjoy the baiting technique, I did that on my first clear.

I mostly ran shieldless, but I'd switch out my offhand for a shield in the lead up to the attack. Not sure if that's still too much shield for you, haha.

Bloodhound's Step might also be an effective way to dodge that first flurry? People seem to be vouching for it.
 

Bjomesphat

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,827
Am I the only one that just used a shield to block Malenia's flurry attack? Not even a great shield, just a medium. I'm pretty sure she gains less health on a block too. I would run out of endurance after the second round and take damage, but would have enough gained back to handle the third.

Just seemed like a far simpler approach than doing attempt after attempt to figure out the specific dodge pattern.
 

Freshmaker

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,946
I've seen a lot of people hate on the deathbird fights, but they're one of my favorite. What is it about the fights that people hate in particular? Or if it just the ones with the ghost flames? I feel like I'm fighting a Bloodborne version of this dude every time:

I like em so much I based my character appearance in both my playthroughs on them lol
I didn't mind the Death Rite bird, but I also spirit summoned. Most of the people I've watched on YouTube who get livid about the thing also refuse to summon.

 

Shin Kojima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,035
I mostly ran shieldless, but I'd switch out my offhand for a shield in the lead up to the attack. Not sure if that's still too much shield for you, haha.

Bloodhound's Step might also be an effective way to dodge that first flurry? People seem to be vouching for it.
Yeah I guess the offhand technique seems like the way to go if there's no other way. I normally have a shield anyway but I'm curious about all the options. Haven't actually tried Bloodhound's Step yet because I get weirded out about losing my roll haha.
 

{Marvelous}

Member
Jan 2, 2018
1,307
I didn't mind the Death Rite Birds, then again I've almost never used lock on with them except once and it was a shit show because of the head and their mobility.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,298
Dark Space
The Greatsword is only one with good aesthetics IMO. That's all the matters to me. Haha
No, no, not to me. I'm only up to Altus Plateau so no endgame spoilers and I haven't seen all of the game's weapons, I'll still tag the ones I have that I think look cool: Watchdog's Staff, Ghiza''a Wheel, Troll's Golden Sword, Godslayer's Greatsword, Golem's Halberd, etc.

Ruins Greatsword isn't the most elegant looking so doesn't make the list, but there is something funny about bashing heads with a broken piece of a wall that accidentally got enchanted, and some fool decided to chisel one end of the material into a handle. Calling it a "sword" at all is a pretty huge reach lol.

Maybe but at the expense of some bad LOD changes going by the PC performance thread.i haven't had a chance to really check it out but seems like there's had pop in now which would be a bad trade off imo
I personally have been playing daily since the patch dropped and haven't had a single pop in or LOD issue. I'm "only" playing on an RTX 3050 Ti with 4GB VRAM so not the highest end of GPUUs either.

is the stuttering gone? I'm playing on PC and I've barely noticed any stuttering since the new patch to the point I completely forgot that that was a thing.
Significantly reduced in many areas for me.
 

SDBurton

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,427
Yeah I guess I knew about the baiting and running away but I was just wondering if there was a way to dodge it at close range in case I wanna go shieldless at some point. I don't enjoy the baiting technique, I did that on my first clear.

Ahhh I gotcha. Yeah, trying to avoid it point blank is tough and unfortunately I don't have a strat to dodge it on the spot. Bloodhound Step would probably be your answer but even then that was a crap shoot for me. Hope something works out for you!

That's what I read as well but in practice you have to spend the whole fight looking out for it, and one badly timed attack/counter-attack would leave you with no time to run safely away.

And that's just.... Annoying.

EDIT: I kinda misread your statement, my bad. But I've seen her do two waterfowl back-to back before so the threat of that attack is constant throughout the fight.

No worries, and you're right.. there have been instances where she has done the waterfowl back to back but for me personally those have been rare out of the many attempts I've done. Just the luck of RNG I suppose haha.
 

RockmanBN

Visited by Knack - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,078
Cornfields
Ahhh I gotcha. Yeah, trying to avoid it point blank is tough and unfortunately I don't have a strat to dodge it on the spot. Bloodhound Step would probably be your answer but even then that was a crap shoot for me. Hope something works out for you!



No worries, and you're right.. there have been instances where she has done the waterfowl back to back but for me personally those have been rare out of the many attempts I've done. Just the luck of RNG I suppose haha.
I think she may do it again if she recovers above the threshold and you damage her back to it.
 

tmdorsey

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,679
Georgia
Am I the only one that just used a shield to block Malenia's flurry attack? Not even a great shield, just a medium. I'm pretty sure she gains less health on a block too. I would run out of endurance after the second round and take damage, but would have enough gained back to handle the third.

Just seemed like a far simpler approach than doing attempt after attempt to figure out the specific dodge pattern.

This is what I do when I'm able to anticipate it coming. Still haven't beaten her yet, but I think I'm getting close…
 

viotech3

Member
Jul 31, 2020
5,250
Maryland
You can comit to an attack quick enough with a roll length distance, and many of ther moves, once dodged, actually have enough window to get in with multiple strikes. You do not always have to assume she is going to do that attack at all. I have beat her twice without doing this, and again... I'm a relative noob.

So no, I know that's not true because I've experienced otherwise.
Just for the future, I know that it's not your intention but generally saying things like "I'm bad and I can do it" is a pretty good way of making other people disregard you. It's not your intention, but it always comes across as "you're worse just get good" when it's the exact opposite intention. It's how it is, just some minor advice. Encouragement doesn't have to come with

On the actual topic, I think there are a few things that close to objectively making Waterfowl poor design:
-Randomness. Randomness sucks. I have been killed by her doing waterfowl and dodging it, slow walking, and waterfowling again the moment I go in for an attack. That is bad design on it's own, but when you factor in the following problems it becomes awful.

-Un-Intuitiveness. It's extremely unintuitive. It's the worst move I've seen outside of Rykards Skulls in category of unintuitiveness within Elden Ring. It's genuinely the worst part about Waterfowl. It's terrible at telling the player they're on the right track to solving it, and instead actively discourages a variety of solutions. Truly terrible design. And I play old monster hunter, where going online to find key quests is a requirement and that is bad design too. Fight isn't designed well if people have to look up videos because it's that unintuitive.

-Magnitudes more threatening than literally every phase 1 move and most phase 2 moves. It's no competition, and it's easy to see this by watching people fight her for hours. During these hours of attempts, when Malenia does not roll the dice and use Waterfowl, she gets down to the 10% or even phase 2 health values, but when she does it's rarely below 50%.

-The randomness and the absurdly off-track threat makes the fight incredibly inconsistent. The worst part of that is how unsatisfying it is for most people to succeed; success is almost always determined entirely be the number of waterfowls & timing of waterfowls in a fight. I have only seen a few people react positively to success, and equally few people react truly negatively. People just beat them and move on, and then rate it as one of the worst fights. This is a large factor, but EVERY factor above

-She's a boss you can trade with but can't combo consistently due to hyper armor moves. She encourages staying close to her, and even reads position to followup with specific positional counters. She encourages "dancing" with her, which Mohg also does, which is a great fight. Then Waterfowl comes into play at 65-70% health, and the solution to the fight switches to running away constantly. Most runs exploit her deliberate slow walk because she doesn't react quick enough, and all you have to do is walk away which you want to do anyway because Waterfowl simply exists. People saying that they don't do this are outliers and should not think of such play as reasonable. It isn't, or we wouldn't have most people thinking the fight sucks. There's a run out there with no actions but running and attacking; the existence of such a run does not disqualify the problems of the fight nor the problems people encounter, every game has challenge runs like this and none of it makes things more reasonable.


I think it's one of the worst fights in the series and it won't be better until the counterplay is conveyed well, let alone the other issues addressed. Challenge for challenges sake does not disqualify problematic design, and instead indicates that From is struggling to make quality challenge that is designed well which is typical of long term series that suffer from power & design creep.
 
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Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever™
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,592
I didn't mind the Death Rite bird, but I also spirit summoned. Most of the people I've watched on YouTube who get livid about the thing also refuse to summon.


That iteration of the Death Rite Bird is nasty, but I dusted its ass after like 10-15 tries. Just gotta be patient. Think it was during my Night & Flame phase.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,849
The snowfield one is the only one I even saw lol. Its another fight a lot of people seem to hate but I thought it was neat.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,127
I don't think I had any issues with any of Death Birds 🤔 I usually just hug close to their legs, that seems to be the safest spot.

Then again I think I just fought most of them above the usual levels so that might explain it.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever™
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,592
I don't think I had any issues with any of Death Birds 🤔 I usually just hug close to their legs, that seems to be the safest spot.

Then again I think I just fought most of them above the usual levels so that might explain it.
Did you fight the snowfield one? The others ones are kittens and that one is a psychotic killing machine by comparison. It's as if they lull the player into a false sense of security like "oh another death rite bird? ok why not" and then shit in your cereal.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,127
Did you fight the snowfield one? The others ones are kittens and that one is a psychotic killing machine by comparison. It's as if they lull the player into a false sense of security like "oh another death rite bird? ok why not" and then shit in your cereal.

Yeah I fought that one, but my memories of that event was mainly me running away from the gauntlet of giant skeletons trying to kill me and just stumbled into it by accident lol.

I think I was playing around with the Dark Moon GS at the time.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever™
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,592
Yeah I fought that one, but my memories of that event was mainly me running away from the gauntlet of giant skeletons trying to kill me and just stumbled into it by accident lol.

I think I was playing around with the Dark Moon GS at the time.
Ah, the exact same way I found it lol. I was like "fuck these skeletons I'm out" and then got dunked on by the bird.
 

Jane

Member
Oct 17, 2018
1,269
I've seen a lot of people hate on the deathbird fights, but they're one of my favorite. What is it about the fights that people hate in particular? Or if it just the ones with the ghost flames? I feel like I'm fighting a Bloodborne version of this dude every time:

I like em so much I based my character appearance in both my playthroughs on them lol
I don't think I've fought the snowfield one but my complaint with the death birds is that if you're locked onto their head, when they do their peck attack the camera goes crazy. I feel like at some point From's got to overhaul the camera to be a bit more smart when you're locked onto stuff.
 

samoscratch

Member
Nov 25, 2017
2,847
I've been using mohg's pitchfork weapon and the ash of war is insane… godskin duo couldn't believe what was happening to them lol
 
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