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Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,251
New York City
I don't understand what you're trying to say, but this has been explained to you ten times over already so you should either accept what people are saying about how they personally enjoy games as the truth (which it is), or don't and just move on.

The only thing that people are saying is that the way people want to play the game is more important that having that experience largly unchanged and letting others enjoy it in their own way. The way you enjoy games is something that must remain while others don't get to all. Over a notion that is not contracted by the game but rather by your own internal conflict.
 

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,081
Phoenix, AZ
I imagine that given the amount of options in the game already they want as many people to experience it as possible.

As I said in the rest of my post you edited out, everyone is still playing the same version of the game which is the main point. The options are there so people can take different approaches to those same challenges, but in the end everyone still faces the same enemies as everyone else, which is the game that Miyazaki wanted to make.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,328
That's disingenuous and bad faith as fuck and you know it. How are subtitles and everything you listed not a part of what the fuck I'm talking about with real accessibility and allowing people to approach a game to the best of their abilities?

Your little "gotcha" was built on quicksand, tighten up.
it's clear you can see the issue but we have a difference of opinion on whether or the same this topic starts on is at the root or not. I'd say it is. Games are ultimately reflective of their creators. If there's a disturbing amount of missing accessibility options, it's all rooted in the same problem.

The creative intent is to have everyone experience the same journey of mystery, lore, and journey. I get that. But by doing so, it's always gonna come at the cost of someone til the creator relents.

I will never be able to experience 3D audio as I'm deaf out of one ear. So, if a game relies heavily on that, it excludes me by default. So enemies that attack from positions i can't identify visually I'll probably die and my survival depends on mercy of RNG.
 
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Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,251
New York City
As I said in the rest of my post you edited out, everyone is still playing the same version of the game which is the main point. The options are there so people can take different approaches to those same challenges, but in the end everyone still faces the same enemies as everyone else, which is the game that Miyazaki wanted to make.
Those option can take a different form of that of an option before you start the game. Why is it so out of bounds? They are functionally the same. You can't argue for the game to not have an easy toggle and then explain that it's already there.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,337
As I said in the rest of my post you edited out, everyone is still playing the same version of the game which is the main point. The options are there so people can take different approaches to those same challenges, but in the end everyone still faces the same enemies as everyone else, which is the game that Miyazaki wanted to make.
People aren't playing the same version of the game though. It's literally a DnD inspired game and the closest thing we can get to as a DnD combat sandbox and that includes options that literally break the game, which would still break the game regardless of difficulty.

Intended mode: "Oh neat a new boss, WELP, kamehameha"

Easy mode: "Oh neat a new boss, WELP, kamehameha"

hqdefault.jpg
 

Razorrin

Member
Nov 7, 2017
5,236
the HELP Menu.
I'd be glad to steer and participate in such a thread. The able-bodied people gnashing their teeth because the game is too hard threads are coming to an end after this one burns out though.

Now that Miyazaki has stated his intentions, this circular argument is over and won't be continued on Era if I can help it.
This is saint behaviour, thank you. The cycle must come to an end and a new age will dawn in it's wake.

I will be happy to have these discussions become more focused and less people being allowed to condescend others.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,207
Dark Space
it's clear you can see the issue but we have a difference of opinion on whether or the same this topic starts on is at the root or not. I'd say it is. Games are ultimately reflective of their creators. If there's a disturbing amount of missing accessibility options, it's all rooted in the same problem.
From fucking sucks at accessibility, always has. Elden Ring and Sekiro are shameful, period.

I just think they have so much to do to become modern and friendly to disabled people that easy mode is FAR down my list. At the bottom.

I say this because of what games I can successfully play when the options are there to make sure I can approach it at my best.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,251
New York City
We keep arguing in circles because people think they have explained something when they actually haven't. They way you want to play does not override others unless you are toxic.
 

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,081
Phoenix, AZ
Those option can take a different form of that of an option before you start the game. Why is it so out of bounds? They are functionally the same. You can't argue for the game to not have an easy toggle and then explain that it's already there.

I didn't say the easy toggle was was already there. I just said the game gives you different tools to overcome challenges. Other people may argue that magic or summoning is easy mode, but I'm not making that argument. I'm saying you choose the build and weapon loadout you want, and you fight the same version of the enemies as everyone else.

People aren't playing the same version of the game though. It's literally a DnD inspired game and the closest thing we can get to as a DnD combat sandbox and that includes options that literally break the game, which would still break the game regardless of difficulty.

Intended mode: "Oh neat a new boss, WELP, kamehameha"

Easy mode: "Oh neat a new boss, WELP, kamehameha"

Except they are playing the same version of the game. If someone finds a broken build, they're still using it against the same bosses that do the same damage with the same health as anyone else playing the game.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,535
The only thing that people are saying is that the way people want to play the game is more important that having that experience largly unchanged and letting others enjoy it in their own way. The way you enjoy games is something that must remain while others don't get to all. Over a notion that is not contracted by the game but rather by your own internal conflict.

Yes exactly. My experience is more important to me than other people's in this case. Specifically because the context is that we're talking about one series from one developer in a sea of thousand and thousands of games. We're talking about like 6 games over the course of a decade. I wouldn't want every game to work this way, but I do like that these games work this way. It's not a moral issue. It's ok for my specific tastes to be catered to sometimes. Changing this specific thing would change my specific experience, and I would rather that not happen. If you are incapable of accepting that truth, then don't bother replying.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,337
We keep arguing in circles because people think they have explained something when they actually haven't. They way you want to play does not override others unless you are toxic.
I think the worst is the implication that people wouldn't be able to help themselves if an easy option existed. Like, no one wants to acknowledge that this isn't the most common build in the game:



Because it literally destroys the argument that people would inherently choose the path of least resistance instead of you know, playing the game the way they want. Which could literally extend to an easier option.

Except they are playing the same version of the game. If someone finds a broken build, they're still using it against the same bosses that do the same damage with the same health as anyone else playing the game.
I don't think the boss above was given the option to do damage in the first place.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,328
From fucking sucks at accessibility, always has. Elden Ring and Sekiro are shameful, period.

I just think they have so much to do to become modern and friendly to disabled people that easy mode is FAR down my list. At the bottom.

I say this because of what games I can successfully play when the options are there to make sure I can approach it at my best.
I don't want easy mode. i want the ability to key in enemies based on what I know to be my weakness which is I can't tell if an enemy is coming from my left, right, or behind when not on screen. I can't tell audio direction cause I've lost all hearing in one ear and the other isn't so great itself. So, I need visual indicators and some extra time to process. But I also realize that level of support in the game actually is an almost insurmountable challenge so I'd take easy mode and also I don't trust From to also make that indicator contrast enough.
 

LossAversion

The Merchant of ERA
Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,704
Does that make him not above criticism though?

that doesn't make it above criticism
I mean, you keep bringing up how your criticism is valid... and yeah, you can criticise something all you'd like...

But you're acting as though your criticism is above reproach. Anything contrary to your thought process is just an "excuse" rather than a different point of view. The developers themselves are wrong and you are right and that's it. You've criticized something and so that means it is bad and must be changed. Not much room for discussion there.

I would elaborate on my point a little further, but reading the past ten pages or so, I've noticed that you also tend to ignore large portions of any rebuttal to your criticisms and you just single out one or two things that you feel like replying to. Making it feel like you're not actually engaging with anyone and you're only interested in affirming how right you are.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,251
New York City
Yes exactly. My experience is more important to me than other people's in this case. Specifically because the context is that we're talking about one series from one developer in a sea of thousand and thousands of games. We're talking about like 6 games over the course of a decade. I wouldn't want every game to work this way, but I do like that these games work this way. It's not a moral issue. It's ok for my specific tastes to be catered to sometimes. Changing this specific thing would change my specific experience, and I would rather that not happen. If you are incapable of accepting that truth, then don't bother replying.
Disgusting. Froms games are not special and shouldn't get exception for any rules just because a bunch of people like them very much. This mentality is exactly the problem. More so than if any from game ever got a difficulty toggle.
 

Tsumami

Member
Feb 3, 2022
5,044
From games are not special and shouldn't get exception yet they are the only devs that get met with this energy in regards to people begging for an easy mode

I wonder why
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,207
Dark Space
I don't want easy mode. i want the ability to key in enemies based on what I know to be my weakness which is I can't tell if an enemy is coming from my left, right, or behind when not on screen. I can't tell audio direction cause I've lost all hearing in one ear and the other isn't so great itself. So, I need visual indicators and some extra time to process. But I also realize that level of support in the game actually is an almost insurmountable challenge so I'd take easy mode and also I don't trust From to also make that indicator contrast enough.
We don't disagree on anything, we're just desperate for different things.

Since From ISN'T doing an Easy mode, we go to war for the options we must have. Like you literally have to stop arguing for difficulty modes and start making noise for the accessibility options.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,535
Disgusting. Froms games are not special and shouldn't get exception for any rules just because a bunch of people like them very much. This mentality is exactly the problem. More so than if any from game ever got a difficulty toggle.

No, it's ok for me to be selfish about an entertainment product every once in a while.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,355
I don't see why both can't be discussed simultaneously. Again there is a lot to talk about when it comes to accessibility and difficulty but the preservationist attitude I think is actually at odds with it. As a separate mode for easy and not easy would do more to preserve the mode that is not easy as opposed to trying to fit everything into one package especially when many of those things would be different then what we have now. It makes no sense to be against one approach but not the other.
The whole "I would be tempted to use easy mode/the artist's vision needs to be preserved" argument is fairly dumb IMO. However, the "20% less damage taken" easy mode people want is already covered diagetically through builds, armor, spells, and systems. Grant covers that in his article (I edited it in after you quoted). Not putting the easy mode clearly drives creativity, as no AAA game has the same in-game options as Elden Ring. It lacks in accessibility options compared to a game like TLoU2, but definitely not in options on how you want to play.

Look at what Elden Ring has as options vs what God of War 2018 has as options. I'm choosing this game because Dark Souls and Bloodborne were mentioned as inspiration for God of War 2018, and they are both action adventure games with light RPG elements and very similar combat/controls. One has summoning players, summoning NPCs, summoning Ashes, magic builds, a buff system, a camera that is a reasonable distance from your character, a hint system, bloodstains to tell you about traps, etc. The other has an easy mode.

"Restrictions breed creativity" is a saying for a reason, and one difficulty with a fuckload of options is what they chose to do and very clearly bred creative ways for them to make unique tools that help you to make the game easy. Could they slap on an easy mode as a patch post-development and have everything be fine? Yeah, sure. Would it de-incentivize coming up with new cool systems in Elden Ring 2? Absolutely. Even the clones of Dark Souls don't copy everything and instead slot in an easy mode.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,251
New York City
I think the worst is the implication that people wouldn't be able to help themselves if an easy option existed. Like, no one wants to acknowledge that this isn't the most common build in the game:



Because it literally destroys the argument that people would inherently choose the path of least resistance instead of you know, playing the game the way they want. Which could literally extend to an easier option.


I am choosing harder mode right now. I am doing. A no summon no op weapon build with some magic. Because I like to and I think it's fun. The game is harder for me and I am challenging myself the way everyone already does when they play. They do this already they pick and choose what to do to make them happy. If this took the form of a mode at the start it would be functionally the same. So the opposition to it is absolute nonsense. If it sun a menu or not does not make all the difference. Again. If you care about difficulty you should WANT an easy mode. It preserves the struggle more than if it wasn't there.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,298
I'd be glad to steer and participate in such a thread. The able-bodied people gnashing their teeth because the game is too hard threads are coming to an end after this one burns out though.

Now that Miyazaki has stated his intentions, this circular argument is over and won't be continued on Era if I can help it.
I just made that thread. I hope it's OK, but if it's not the right way to word or ask these questions then that's fine too.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,337
I am choosing harder mode right now. I am doing. A no summon no op weapon build with some magic. Because I like to and I think it's fun. The game is harder for me and I am challenging myself the way everyone already does when they play. They do this already they pick and choose what to do to make them happy. If this took the form of a mode at the start it would be functionally the same. So the opposition to it is absolute nonsense. If it sun a menu or not does not make all the difference. Again. If you care about difficulty you should WANT an easy mode. It preserves the struggle more than if it wasn't there.
7G2q.gif

I mean, you keep bringing up how your criticism is valid... and yeah, you can criticise something all you'd like...

But you're acting as though your criticism is above reproach.
I think the issue is that, in this specific instance it really isn't. Because there's a level of gatekeeping on display. Like, if a player wanted to ignore all the options like summoning, magic, co-op etc. and wanted to make a melee focused character based on Guts but didn't have the reaction time to handle that there's no option besides "Well GG fam." or in more toxic cases "This game isn't for you, I a random person from the internet has chosen this."
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,251
New York City
How about patching in an easy mode 6 months after launch. So that the TTE's can enjoy helltime like they always do and eventually my friend who isn't interested in being super gamer #1 can play the game and we can laugh about it later? No? Giving in to pressure?
 

FreddieQuell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
90
The only thing that people are saying is that the way people want to play the game is more important that having that experience largly unchanged and letting others enjoy it in their own way. The way you enjoy games is something that must remain while others don't get to all. Over a notion that is not contracted by the game but rather by your own internal conflict.

The experience would not be "largely unchanged". That's the part you don't seem to understand
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,251
New York City
The experience would not be "largely unchanged". That's the part you don't seem to understand
If the normal experience is still there. Then it is unchanged. Unless we are saying that the game isn't ready for people until all exploits are patched. In which case elden ring hasn't even been released yet. People are playing right now with the knowledge that the game can be made easier and they still are doing it. This doesn't change with an easy toggle.
 

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,168
Buenos Aires, Argentina
www.resetera.com

Gavin Moore (Demon's Souls Remake Creative Director): "There are no difficulty options in Demon's Souls, and there shouldn't be."

https://www.gameinformer.com/interview/2020/10/29/demons-souls-playstation-5-interview-fractured-mode-sixth-archstone-and-more I thought it would be fine to post this, because the whole easy mode thing was a huge question before it was just confirmed today.

So contained to a single thread and not immediately poisoning discussion every single time the name of Bluepoint is uttered? Way to prove my point.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,355
People aren't playing the same version of the game though. It's literally a DnD inspired game and the closest thing we can get to as a DnD combat sandbox and that includes options that literally break the game, which would still break the game regardless of difficulty.

Intended mode: "Oh neat a new boss, WELP, kamehameha"

Easy mode: "Oh neat a new boss, WELP, kamehameha"

hqdefault.jpg
Problem solved then? Why did this need to get to 61 pages, if diagetically the game already covers what people are asking for? They're the same picture
 

benbeau

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
552
How about patching in an easy mode 6 months after launch. So that the TTE's can enjoy helltime like they always do and eventually my friend who isn't interested in being super gamer #1 can play the game and we can laugh about it later? No? Giving in to pressure?
I'd prefer they'd just have easy mode out of the gate to be honest, but Metroid Dread updated with an easier mode post launch and I don't think many people had an issue with it.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,251
New York City
From my understanding From has philosophy issues with difficulty modes (at least contained within 1 new game)

I'm not sure why they would not just add an easy mode immediately if they wanted to patch it later.
I'm not sure either. But I am looking for a compromise to discuss in order make sense of this insane need to preserve this particular line of videogames in their purest form.
 

FreddieQuell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
90
If the normal experience is still there. Then it is unchanged. Unless we are saying that the game isn't ready for people until all exploits are patched. In which case elden ring hasn't even been released yet. People are playing right now with the knowledge that the game can be made easier and they still are doing it. This doesn't change with an easy toggle.

Do you think there's a difference between making the game easier through the options presented in game and a making the game easier through an easy button toggle?
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
No that is not the point. It isn't that people should have self control. It's it shouldn't matter if you have self control or not when it comes to playing a videogame. You should have the option to do what you feel is good for you with no qualms about it. If a person doesn't have the self control to not pick easy then they should be comfortable with that and decide for themselves if it's worth it.

The option to do what you feel is good for you means that you will never be pushed to do something you think is bad for you.

This idea that you know what is best for you at all times in totality is immature, narcissistic, egotistical and all-around stupid. No, you don't know everything about what is good for you. I am so fucking tired of this conceited, self-centered, self-obsessed way of consuming art. It's so fucking childish. Growth is not comfortable. Lifechanging experiences are not comfortable. Deeply impactful art is not comfortable. Meaningful change is not comfortable. Learning something beyond your current paradigm is not comfortable. I don't want to hear people call games art if they will insist that we absolutely rob it of its ability to demand WE change, rather than insisting we are always allowed to change IT like a fucking fast food meal.

And some of us have thought the things you think and have been shown, by dark souls of all games, or others of these games, that we were ignorant and that games can have more power than we credit them if we stop for a fucking moment demanding the ability to curate everything because "options always good." No, sometimes options are bad.

You fundamentally do not understand that many of us USED TO BE LIKE YOU. But something POWERFUL changed how we thought on a fundamental level, and maybe you should stop and wonder if maybe something outside of what YOU think is obvious is going on here because it's so fucking common. You can continue to dismiss it as elitism or not, but that is utter nonsense. If it was just elitism it would be dismissive, and people would not spend ages desperately trying to help others get past that hump they had to. That empathy is not compatible with elitism and you, straight up, do not understand it. But you're going to continue insisting you do, and continuing to make assumptions about people that they are telling you, over and over, and flat out untrue. You cannot admit that, because it is core to your self-view that you believe your simple, surface level logicked moralism is correct and good and anything challenging that is bad. YOU are the one who sees everything even though it keeps leading you to making assertions about others that are untrue.
 
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Wein Cruz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,772
Disgusting. Froms games are not special and shouldn't get exception for any rules just because a bunch of people like them very much. This mentality is exactly the problem. More so than if any from game ever got a difficulty toggle.

What rules are you talking about? Also what is a TTE?

I'd be glad to steer and participate in such a thread. The able-bodied people gnashing their teeth because the game is too hard threads are coming to an end after this one burns out though.

Now that Miyazaki has stated his intentions, this circular argument is over and won't be continued on Era if I can help it.

That would be great.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,298
After seeing Ra's post I've made a thread to discuss how From Games/Other Souls-Likes can be made more accessible:

www.resetera.com

So, what accessibility features should From and Co. implement in "Souls-Like" games? (read the OP)

In the endless war that is the "Souls Difficulty Debate" there's one key thing that is pretty much always missed. I've missed it, and so have many others... because it is easy to miss. Especially when one is able-bodied enough that completing a Souls title is purely a matter of skill, and not a...
 

jman1954goat

Linked the Fire
Member
May 9, 2020
12,427
Edit. Can everyone please be nice to each other?

Theres no reason to start slinging insults at people and getting into heated fights over a game like this.

Theres so much awful real shit going on we don't need to be toxic to each other discussing this hobby we all love over a difference of opinion.
 
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DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,577
Texas
Disgusting. Froms games are not special and shouldn't get exception for any rules just because a bunch of people like them very much. This mentality is exactly the problem. More so than if any from game ever got a difficulty toggle.
They clearly are special because they sell many millions and no other series spawns these fucking exhausting circular discussions full of bad faith posting and just overall assholeishness
 
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