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Dragonus45

Banned
Jan 31, 2022
74
For those still asking for difficulty options can you quote me and tell me what is wrong with leveling up more and summoning? Two legitinate built-in difficulty sliders.
The general argument is that, at least involving summoning, it's basically having someone else play the boss for you which while it may get you past that bit of tricky content does mean you aren't really getting the feeling of beating it yourself. Leveling up does just less then I think people think it does unless you seriously grind for a long while for getting past the actual proper Walls in the game who will remain unmentioned for spoilers.
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,249
I'm not sure how you drop the core relationship of the story that defines it's entire plot, themes, and reflects onto almost every other character arc?

What I meant is that your dismissive counter argument doesn't address the point you replied to at all.

Death in Hades is critical to advancing the story, a lot of the Dialogue and relationship only opens up through dying again and again, and it changes depending on how many times you died and how you died.

The death loop is just as important to the core to the art and experience of Hades as it is for Souls games.

Yet it is able to introduce a difficult option that allows you to experience the core of the game yet not cut out of the end game.

If an indie studio can do it, then why can't a big AAA studio do it?
This.
Neither difficulty nor accessibility should have anything to do with the story of a game.
 

LTWheels

Member
Nov 8, 2017
767
The only thing I would like them to add is a text log/voice log in the menu so that you can go back and listen/read conversations from the NPCs. That would be a nice feature - it doesn't have to tell you where the NPCs are, or what the next steps of their quest is. It would just be nice to hear what they have said again if you are stuck on progressing a storyline, or have had a large gap in playing.
 

Dragonus45

Banned
Jan 31, 2022
74
Death in Hades is critical to advancing the story, a lot of the Dialogue and relationship only opens up through dying again and again, and it changes depending on how many times you died and how you died.

The death loop is just as important to the core to the art and experience of Hades as it is for Souls games.

Yet it is able to introduce a difficult option that allows you to experience the core of the game yet not cut out of the end game.

If an indie studio can do it, then why can't a big AAA studio do it?

Well first off you can't just say "they both involve death advancing the plot" and then claim two totally different gameplay experiences are now the same thing and should be treated the same. Second of all the question is not can implement a difficulty option. I think it would be way more complicated then the kind of easy changes you could make in a game like Hades but it could be done. The question is both should they and do they want one in their game and the answer to both seems to be a solid no.
 

Bossking

Member
Nov 20, 2017
1,392
Death in Hades is critical to advancing the story, a lot of the Dialogue and relationship only opens up through dying again and again, and it changes depending on how many times you died and how you died.

The death loop is just as important to the core to the art and experience of Hades as it is for Souls games.

Yet it is able to introduce a difficult option that allows you to experience the core of the game yet not cut out of the end game.

If an indie studio can do it, then why can't a big AAA studio do it?

Probably because Hades is a 2D isometric game with roughly what, 6 randomly generated levels, a handful of bosses and enemy types, and 7 weapons? There's variability in those and definitely the various Olympic boons alter the game quite a bit, but it's a lot easier to manage for something like that then a gargantuan open world with hundreds of different enemies, areas, weapons, playstyles, systems, and online functionality that Elden Ring is working with.
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,559
No it's not. It's asking for options in a game because accessibility is objectively a good thing in gaming.
Accessibility absolutely is a good thing. So why the preoccupation with the one element the developer has repeatedly said they will not change, and see as integral to the makeup of their games, and not on any of the other numerous ways they could make their games more accessible? Why is an easy mode so much more important than any other accessibility solution?
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,300
Reducing the difficulty doesn't make the game more enjoyable for me. It's not about the difficulty, I fundamentally despise rouge-lites. And I think these people with all this FOMO of FROM games will find that they fundamentally do not like these games when the difficulty is removed.
If Souls gameplay doesn't still slap when it's not nail bitingly difficult then that's an indictment of souls gameplay. Thankfully we live in the timeline where that's not true at all. Because Souls gameplay is still fun even with mods that make you OP or even grinding an area enough that it becomes trivial.

Accessibility absolutely is a good thing. So why the preoccupation with the one element the developer has repeatedly said they will not change, and see as integral to the makeup of their games, and not on any of the other numerous ways they could make their games more accessible? Why is an easy mode so much more important than any other accessibility solution?
As I said earlier, parameter sliders in games like Horizon, AC, or TLOU2 all fall under accessibility.
 

Dragonus45

Banned
Jan 31, 2022
74
What I meant is that your dismissive counter argument doesn't address the point you replied to at all.

Did you read what I wrote then?

This.
Neither difficulty nor accessibility should have anything to do with the story of a game.

Aside from that being an oddly limiting thing to just state as a plain fact games like Dark Souls and Elden Ring pointedly laugh in the face of it. As I said above, difficulty presented with a specific gameplay loop with deliberately limited and controlled options for how to approach it IS the story of the game. Everything else is just set dressing.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
Elden Ring has plenty of difficulty options diegetic to the game. And while we can talk about more accessibility options like controller remapping, a difficulty slider is just asking for a different game.

You know, it is legitimately unacceptable that you can't remap your controls. I'm a dumb person, you can already remap controls. I was just watching that video where the accessibility advocate was talking about how Sekiro is unplayable for him because he can't remap the controls. It makes me shake my head. That is ridiculous.

As much as this conversation is always frustrating, it did legitimately get me to think about real accessibility options in From games and how desperately they are needed. So that is something.
 
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KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,249
Did you read what I wrote then?



Aside from that being an oddly limiting thing to just state as a plain fact games like Dark Souls and Elden Ring pointedly laugh in the face of it. As I said above, difficulty presented with a specific gameplay loop with deliberately limited and controlled options for how to approach it IS the story of the game. Everything else is just set dressing.
I reall think the two of us have very different definitions of the word story here so I still can't really follow you.
The gameplay loop has nothing to do with story.
Atmosphere, world building, lore - yes, but not story.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,972
I see. It's true, that's more work for the developers but I'm talking about the user experience. For the users, options are good. About the game design example, I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're talking about.

But let's talk about the first Nioh. In this game it was impossible to create your own character, the option wasn't even added via a patch and people said they wanted that option. And in Nioh 2, it became possible. Should they just have stay silent because Koei Tecmo would have had then less work to do?

If you think we should have less options, you do you. Personally, I love options. One thing I love to do when I first play a game is to go in the option menu to see what I can do.
Options can have detrimental effects in some instances, is all I'm saying.

There's a reason there's a lot of talk about balancing. OP options can make a game boring or fun depending on the context.

It's not just a matter of "if you find it too OP, self-refrain yourself not using it".
 

Dragonus45

Banned
Jan 31, 2022
74
I reall think the two of us have very different definitions of the word story here so I still can't really follow you.
The gameplay loop has nothing to do with story.
Atmosphere, world building, lore - yes, but not story.

I guess, I think the gameplay loop can be as much the story of a game/the primary tool by which an author delivers the story of a game as anything else can if the developer want's it to be.
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,249
I wonder how people would feel if Elden Ring had no added difficulty options but had exactly the same accessibility features that Last of Us 2 has.
Surely that should be a desirable situation, right?

I guess, I think the gameplay loop can be as much the story of a game/the primary tool by which an author delivers the story of a game as anything else can if the developer want's it to be.

In that case Hades really is a better fit than Elden Ring.
Like the other poster said some story beats are directly linked to your death, while in Elden Ring a really good player who rarely dies and a bad player who constantly dies still experience the same ingame story.
 

Cruella

Member
May 5, 2021
303
FromSoftware's modern games are akin to spicy food. Without the heat, some food is ruined. The heat helps blend flavors together, cast your mind away from particularly strong ones, etc. Not everyone likes it, some just can't handle it, and that's okay.
This metaphor I remember and it's a good one - ultimately, "spicy food" is as subjective as is difficulty, none of us eat the same food, and we never read the same book or watch the same movie, but here it is even more pronounced. Back home, I sometimes order spicy food and enjoy it. When I travelled in Asia, I always made sure to tell I need "no spicy" food, and still sometimes got very spicy one, with people sincerely surprised that I even think it's spicy. For them, it's not. And I were to order actual spicy food, I wouldn't be able to eat or feel any taste at all, only burning sensation.

Some people won't be challenged by From's games at all, for others it's impossible challenge, we all have different experiences, neurological make up, physical limitation and the like. So ultimately "one challenge for all" is impossible. It is also the reason why many tutorial options are better than 'easy mode", because this easy mode might not address person's problem at all.
 
May 14, 2021
16,731
You know, it is legitimately unacceptable that you can't remap your controls. Just watching that video where the accessibility advocate was talking about how Sekiro is unplayable for him because he can't remap the controls makes me shake my head. That is ridiculous.

As much as this conversation is always frustrating, it did legitimately get me to think about real accessibility options in From games and how desperately they are needed. So that is something.
You can remap your controls though.
 

bill crystals

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,079
Elden Ring is objectively easier than the other Souls games (because you can tackle things at your own pace) and it's the whole reason I'm playing, after bouncing off the games for 10 years. I'm not talking about individual bosses, like Margit. I've been playing and enjoying and learning this game for 30 hours now without fighting a boss as hard as Margit. That's the difference from previous Souls games, and why this one is so much "easier."

I think the tweaks to the formula and nods toward quality of life/player freedom are clearly a key piece of this game's unique success in the series. I bet the games would sell even more if they continued making gestures toward that area. There are clearly ways to improve the game there without compromising its identity. They've done it with ER!
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,300
This metaphor I remember and it's a good one - ultimately, "spicy food" is as subjective as is difficulty, none of us eat the same food, and we never read the same book or watch the same movie, but here it is even more pronounced. Back home, I sometimes order spicy food and enjoy it. When I travelled in Asia, I always made sure to tell I need "no spicy" food, and still sometimes got very spicy one, with people sincerely surprised that I even think it's spicy. For them, it's not. And I were to order actual spicy food, I wouldn't be able to eat or feel any taste at all, only burning sensation.

Some people won't be challenged by From's games at all, for others it's impossible challenge, we all have different experiences, neurological make up, physical limitation and the like. So ultimately "one challenge for all" is impossible. It is also the reason why many tutorial options are better than 'easy mode", because this easy mode might not address person's problem at all.
Did any of those restaurants not offer you any options at all? because again, there's precedent.
The thing you're talking about has literally been addressed by other developers that let you tweak specific parameters in their games even as recently as two weeks ago. What makes Souls so special that it would be a lessened experience with the introduction of those options that somehow, don't manage to break other games? And what about Fromsoftware from a talent level make them unable to overcome any challenges that get presented?
 

Dragonus45

Banned
Jan 31, 2022
74
In that case Hades really is a better fit than Elden Ring.
Like the other poster said some story beats are directly linked to your death, while in Elden Ring a really good player who rarely dies and a bad player who constantly dies still experience the same ingame story.

Which is why I think they are bad comparisons in general.

What makes Souls so special that it would be a lessened experience with the introduction of those options that somehow, don't manage to break other games?

The developers of Souls games think the specific gameplay loop and difficulty is an inherent to the game and story and that an easy mode would break that and those other developers didn't.
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,559
If Souls gameplay doesn't still slap when it's not nail bitingly difficult then that's an indictment of souls gameplay. Thankfully we live in the timeline where that's not true at all. Because Souls gameplay is still fun even with mods that make you OP or even grinding an area enough that it becomes trivial.


As I said earlier, parameter sliders in games like Horizon, AC, or TLOU2 all fall under accessibility.
Parameter sliders? As in customizable difficulties?
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,300
The developers of Souls games think the specific gameplay loop and difficulty is an inherent to the game and story and that an easy mode would break that and those other developers didn't.
The issue is they haven't even tried in the first place.

Parameter sliders? As in customizable difficulties?
Yes. Like the ones that exist in other games that are just as successful and fun to play as Souls games are. I ignored pretty much every accessibility options in TLOU2. And you know what never bothered me? The idea that someone else was having their own experience thanks to those options. The sanctity of the most awarded game ever wasn't tarnished because some people played the grounded mode with maximum loot drops and auto aim. What a concept. Nor was I ever even tempted to use those options. Same would apply to Souls. If y'all argued for years that it should never have a map before immediately accepting that implementation you can handle those options existing for players that'd like to enjoy the game too.
 

Dragonus45

Banned
Jan 31, 2022
74
The issue is they haven't even tried in the first place.

Because they don't want too, they said that pretty clearly.

Yes. Like the ones that exist in other games that are just as successful and fun to play as Souls games are.

Good for them, it's nice to know that there is enough space in the gaming industry for people to do different things and tackle different genres and gameplay styles in different ways and still find an audience.
 

bill crystals

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,079
The "easy mode" could be as simple as just starting the game at like level 20 with a few rounds of the first basic upgrades already. All people need is a gentler on-ramp and then they will be hungry for the rest of the game's challenge. I seriously don't see how anyone could have any kind of ideological issues with that approach.

Because I can tell you, the opening hours of a Souls game are absolutely not some "masterful" treatise on design. They're frustrating and bad for a lots of people.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,300

aloner

Member
Jun 30, 2021
2,481
Australia
I appreciate that they don't punish you for dying in Elden Ring atleast unlike Souls (ie: Demon's Souls where the world gets harder and you get less health the more you die)
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,714
I honestly think part of what makes these games so popular is that roughly every person who plays them (whether they are skilled or not at all) will ultimately share a similar experience, some things might stone wall one player more than the other but generally the hard parts are harder for everyone. It makes discussing these games while they release a bit more of a unique experience where everyone's talking about one thing being brutal, ways they over came it etc etc. I think that's been part of the success for From.
 

FunkyStudent

Member
Jan 28, 2019
768
Did any of those restaurants not offer you any options at all? because again, there's precedent.
The thing you're talking about has literally been addressed by other developers that let you tweak specific parameters in their games even as recently as two weeks ago. What makes Souls so special that it would be a lessened experience with the introduction of those options that somehow, don't manage to break other games? And what about Fromsoftware from a talent level make them unable to overcome any challenges that get presented?
There are plenty of restaurants that won't compromise on the spice level. Sometimes it's as simple as limiting the number of slaps of cayenne powder that goes into the dish and that's why there's an option. Other restaurants make their curry paste with the ratio of peppers/ginger/etc. to what they feel is balanced for the best experience. But those restaurants may offer you a chutney or sauce to help temper that spice. Miyazaki thinks that the hardship is core to the experience, but they've given you plenty of ways to temper it. I'm also not familiar with any games that have difficulty sliders that also allow you to grind levels to subvert the difficulty.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,201
Dark Space
If a game offers control and visual settings that meet you at your limitations, yet it is the actual difficulty of the gameplay that thwarts you, that isn't an "accessibility" issue.

Accessibility options are not difficulty modes, stop conflating the two and dirtying the waters of what the disabled need to play videogames.
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,559
The issue is they haven't even tried in the first place.


Yes. Like the ones that exist in other games that are just as successful and fun to play as Souls games are.
Right, which goes back to my earlier point. Why the preoccupation with difficulty? Why are accessibility advocates in From Software discussions so disinterested in discussing methods of improving accessibility outside of difficulty sliders?

That video I referenced earlier was great because it was the first time I'd heard about many of the ways the games we're failing in terms of accessibility. But it seems like in the discussion of From Software, those items are given only a cursory mention before returning to difficulty. It makes me question how much accessibility concerns are actually driving this conversation.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,606
Probably because Hades is a 2D isometric game with roughly what, 6 randomly generated levels, a handful of bosses and enemy types, and 7 weapons? There's variability in those and definitely the various Olympic boons alter the game quite a bit, but it's a lot easier to manage for something like that then a gargantuan open world with hundreds of different enemies, areas, weapons, playstyles, systems, and online functionality that Elden Ring is working with.
Lmao that is so dismissive it's almost impressive.
Particularly since From reuses so many assets to make it easier for them to deliver such content rich games.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,641
Yes. Like the ones that exist in other games that are just as successful and fun to play as Souls games are. I ignored pretty much every accessibility options in TLOU2. And you know what never bothered me? The idea that someone else was having their own experience thanks to those options. The sanctity of the most awarded game ever wasn't tarnished because some people played the grounded mode with maximum loot drops and auto aim. What a concept. Nor was I ever even tempted to use those options. Same would apply to Souls. If y'all argued for years that it should never have a map before immediately accepting that implementation you can handle those options existing for players that'd like to enjoy the game too.
lol this is almost exactly how I played TLoU2, second highest difficulty but with normal ammo drop and max aim assist with a slo-mo shortcut tied to R3 (like Horizon), because I suck with controller aiming. Thank God for all those accessibility options which I'm pretty sure didn't ruin the game for those that stick to default difficulty settings.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,951
You know, it is legitimately unacceptable that you can't remap your controls. Just watching that video where the accessibility advocate was talking about how Sekiro is unplayable for him because he can't remap the controls makes me shake my head. That is ridiculous.

As much as this conversation is always frustrating, it did legitimately get me to think about real accessibility options in From games and how desperately they are needed. So that is something.

Yep, good thing consoles now allow for this on their own. But if you are on PC then you're fucked.

If a game offers control and visual settings that meet you at your limitations, yet it is the actual difficulty of the gameplay that thwarts you, that isn't an "accessibility" issue.

Accessibility options are not difficulty modes, stop conflating the two and dirtying the waters of what the disabled need to play videogames.

Yep.
 

Sec0nd

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,046
This metaphor I remember and it's a good one - ultimately, "spicy food" is as subjective as is difficulty, none of us eat the same food, and we never read the same book or watch the same movie, but here it is even more pronounced. Back home, I sometimes order spicy food and enjoy it. When I travelled in Asia, I always made sure to tell I need "no spicy" food, and still sometimes got very spicy one, with people sincerely surprised that I even think it's spicy. For them, it's not. And I were to order actual spicy food, I wouldn't be able to eat or feel any taste at all, only burning sensation.

Some people won't be challenged by From's games at all, for others it's impossible challenge, we all have different experiences, neurological make up, physical limitation and the like. So ultimately "one challenge for all" is impossible. It is also the reason why many tutorial options are better than 'easy mode", because this easy mode might not address person's problem at all.

If you want to use spicy food as an analogy you could say that FROM is the joint that advertises itself as 'The spiciest and hottest joint in town!'. And yet you still go in and demand some non spicy food. Would you really be surprised if they declined to serve you? Or maybe even worse, shrug and give you an extremely crappy meal because they had to remove all the ingredients that are part of their unique spicy-ness gimmick.

Why bother going to the spicy joint if next door is the chillest salad bar?
 

Dragonus45

Banned
Jan 31, 2022
74
Hence the incredibly valid criticism because again, accessibility is objectively a good thing.

Yes I would love for them to add more accessibility options like better controller mapping, color blind modes, etc... but they have a specific vision and idea for the difficulty of their games and if they ever decide that it's possible to balance the vision they have and add in some kind of easy mode good for them but so far they have decided otherwise. Don't conflate the validity of real accessibility options with the validity of wanting an easy mode.
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,249
Right, which goes back to my earlier point. Why the preoccupation with difficulty? Why are accessibility advocates in From Software discussions so disinterested in discussing methods of improving accessibility outside of difficulty sliders?

That video I referenced earlier was great because it was the first time I'd heard about many of the ways the games we're failing in terms of accessibility. But it seems like in the discussion of From Software, those items are given only a cursory mention before returning to difficulty. It makes me question how much accessibility concerns are actually driving this conversation.
Just look at all the accessibility options from The Last of Us 2. You can slow down the game to bullet time just as an example.
For an abled person that makes the game incredibly easy. For a person with certain disabilities a mode like that can be crucial.
Why limit accessibility options to remapping controls and adding a color blind mode? There are so many other disabilities that just get ignored. Why draw the line at just the most basic options?
 

SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,144
Accessibility options are not difficulty modes, stop conflating the two and dirtying the waters of what the disabled need to play videogames.
Respectfully I think you're off-base to make such a statement with such authority.

Not only are disabled people not a monolith - someone might feel one way about difficulty settings and some might feel another way - but also accessibility options are not just for what are commonly thought of as "disabled people", like people with blindness, deafness, those with physical impairments, etc, but rather they also aid all sorts of players like people of old age, etc. While difficulty modes are not the end all be all for accessibility features, I think they absolutely are a tool in the toolbox for making the same experience more accessible to a wider range of people - and that's a very important distinction I'm making: It's not that difficulty options should be there because certain people want a different experience i.e. an easy, but rather than lowering the difficulty allows certain people with certain handicaps to finally be physically capable of having the challenging experience that From Soft wants to create, rather than an outright impossible experience given their personal capabilities.
 

99humanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,996
Respectfully I think you're off-base to make such a statement with such authority.

Not only are disabled people not a monolith - someone might feel one way about difficulty settings and some might feel another way - but also accessibility options are not even necessarily limited to just what are commonly thought of as handicaps, like physical impairments, but rather also aid all sorts of players like people of old age, etc. While difficulty modes are not the end all be all for accessibility features, I think they absolutely are a tool in the toolbox for making the same experience more accessible to a wider range of people - and that's a very important distinction I'm making: It's not that difficulty options should be there because certain people want a different experience i.e. an easy, but rather than lowering the difficulty allows certain people with certain handicaps to finally be physically capable of having the challenging experience that From Soft wants to create, rather than an outright impossible experience given their personal capabilities.
Do you think most people asking for an easy mode have disabilities or do they just wish the game was easier?
It honestly sounds like a lot of hiding behind the accessibility argument when people who are perfectly capable of learning the game just don't want to (which is fine, if they're being honest)
 
Oct 28, 2019
72
I haven't read every response, so I don't know whether someone has already brought up this point or not. But why does emery game need to appeal to everyone? These games are made with a specific difficulty in mind and if you feel that they are too overwhelming for you or too inaccessible it is okay. You are not meant to enjoy every game that comes out.

It isn't one to one, but this discourse reminds me of when TLOU2 came out and some people mentioned that it would have been better had players been able to choose whether or not to kill Abby. No it wouldn't. Naughty Dog wanted to tell a very specific story and whether or not you agreed with their decisions that is up for debate, but adding choice would have robbed the game of its impact.

It's similar with From's games. Adding difficulty settings robs the games of their identity and impact.

I am 29 years old now. I don't have the time to play long games any more. I literally had to give overtime to my employees so I could have the weekend off to play this game, and I know I'm not going to get the chance to play this game for another month at best. I understand the value of the difficulty setting. Trust me. But not for these games.

II know this sounds like gatekeeping but I don't really know how else to word my thoughts, so apologies if it came off as mean spirited
 

ReginaldXIV

Member
Nov 4, 2017
7,784
Minnesota
I think the worst thing FROM did was make players think that Margit is the first boss of the game by aggressively pointing you toward him.

Between ashen summons and general exploration/leveling up you don't even have to touch any of the bosses for dozens of hours. Then by the time you go back and decide you're ready to fight a boss, you ace the thing in 3 hits.

Actively playing the game is the easy mode here, it's hard baked into the design.

I agree that they should do better with accessibility though through text size options, dyslexia fonts, color blind options, toggles for sprints, better lock-on etc.
 

SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,144
Do you think most people asking for an easy mode have disabilities or do they just wish the game was easier?
It honestly sounds like a lot of hiding behind the accessibility argument when people who are perfectly capable of learning the game just don't want to (which is fine, if they're being honest)
Even if some people do want an easier experience, you just said yourself that it's fine. Like honestly who gives a fuck if the byproduct of having a more accessible game for the people who need it is that some other people who don't need it cheat themselves out of an incredible experience? I mean the alternative is that both sets of people either have a miserable experience, or don't have an experience at all.
 

SigSig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,777
play literally any other game.
You know, it is legitimately unacceptable that you can't remap your controls. Just watching that video where the accessibility advocate was talking about how Sekiro is unplayable for him because he can't remap the controls makes me shake my head. That is ridiculous.
This is on the platform owners. Steam Input set the bar, Sony and Nintendo can't be arsed.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,930
It's not just a matter of "if you find it too OP, self-refrain yourself not using it".
The annoying thing is that I feel there's a really interesting discussion to be had on the difference between a self imposed difficulty and a difficulty that's imposed upon you but it's obviously well beyond the level of nuance that many on this forum are capable of.
 

Senator Rains

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,338
I'm glad Miyazaki and his team are still sticking to their guns regarding the difficultly. As soon as I learned that Elden Ring will be an open world game, I was scared that this will undermine the "Souls" experience. I'm glad I'm getting my ass kicked with Elden Ring.
 
The "easy mode" could be as simple as just starting the game at like level 20 with a few rounds of the first basic upgrades already. All people need is a gentler on-ramp and then they will be hungry for the rest of the game's challenge. I seriously don't see how anyone could have any kind of ideological issues with that approach.

Because I can tell you, the opening hours of a Souls game are absolutely not some "masterful" treatise on design. They're frustrating and bad for a lots of people.
I don't think a level 20 character right from the jump has a particularly easier time starting out against Tree Sentinel or especially Margit, both of which are bosses that you can go straight to within minutes of entering the Lands Between (Tree Sentinel is practically staring at you right as you emerge, at that). I'm not sure what a solution to early game struggles is myself, but bigger numbers doesn't strike me as a path made for success with how the games are without going through some major placement adjustments for threats along the way or behavior alterations to tone down aggression.
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,546
United Kingdom
Hence the incredibly valid criticism because again, accessibility is objectively a good thing.

I think you're conflating accessibility options with difficulty options. Ultimately it's up to each developer to draw that line wherever they want, and clearly From believes that adding a conventional difficulty slider breaks their vision for what they intend their target audience to experience. As a Dev, if I'd made something like Devil Daggers, I'd make a big distinction between colourblind modes or key remaps, which I don't feel hurt the vision, and a difficulty slider with separate leaderboards, which I feel totally would. Everyone's going to draw that line differently, but I can safely say I'd be the same as From when it comes to where they're drawing it. Changing a creators vision isn't "objectively good", I think you're oversimplifying things.
 
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