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ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
I've never cared about or used keyless integration. Just give me my key. I don't need my account linked to your website.

Self service refunds? You mean I no longer have to wait for someone to look at my request and decide? That sounds good, because their refund process was much slower then Steam.

When the hell are Sony and Nintendo going to offer user initiated refunds?
 
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Siresly

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,564
Improved refund process good.
Introduction of keyless purchases bad.

Keyless purchases reminds me of that time Microsoft tried to make it so you couldn't trade, gift or sell your games.
The argument that this is actually good for customers because it removes all those bothersome obstacles of...let's see... "copying and pasting a code"...is very stupid.

Hope it never becomes more than an option.
 
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BeI

Member
Dec 9, 2017
5,966
I mean, when you start mostly from scratch, every update feels HUEG comparatively.

Pretty much. After the big Steam updates in the last few years, there's probably less and less they can reasonably add in a small time frame. The long periods of quiet aren't ideal though. I wonder if Source 2 will impress much when that finally releases for usage, but it's seeming like Epic might be far ahead with their Unreal Engine.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,072
Pretty much. After the big Steam updates in the last few years, there's probably less and less they can reasonably add in a small time frame. The long periods of quiet aren't ideal though. I wonder if Source 2 will impress much when that finally releases for usage, but it's seeming like Epic might be far ahead with their Unreal Engine.
Huh? They have talked more about the new updates they have been doing now than before...
 

BeI

Member
Dec 9, 2017
5,966
Huh? They have talked more about the new updates they have been doing now than before...

They're definitely better than they used to be.

Cant hear about it if you don't use it.

All of their updates are literally listed on Steam. Mobile included.

Strangely enough, most gaming news I see is on this forum instead. And EGS stuff happens to pop up more lately than Steam. I guess giveaways and a sale might do that though.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,968
I don't mind Keyless if the option for Keys also remain for those who want to go that route.
Publishers want to eliminate keys so that consumers can't gift/trade/resell them.
The PC digital market has been absolutely devastated this generation as publishers have tightened the reigns, moved toward their own launchers/DRM, and increased pricing to have parity with consoles (which often ends up higher now, since consoles still have a physical market).
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,072
Strangely enough, most gaming news I see is on this forum instead. And EGS stuff happens to pop up more lately than Steam. I guess giveaways and a sale might do that though.
Nah, Steam news appear quite often, its just that they barely get to 1 page so you might not see them. EGS news are the same tbh, except this week because well, its their sale lol.

PSN offers self service refund. They will automatically reject your refund request.
Uff. So good.

Publishers want to eliminate keys so that consumers can't gift/trade/resell them.
The PC digital market has been absolutely devastated this generation as publishers have tightened the reigns, moved toward their own launchers/DRM, and increased pricing to have parity with consoles (which often ends up higher now, since consoles still have a physical market).
Yep, eliminating keys is a way to break the gray market and have full control of when keys are sold (as you dont "give" the key list and wait till the person activates it, but have full control of when they are sold and when they activate).
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,296
America
Keys are dying because of fraud. You'll see less and less keys used as redeemables as time goes on everywhere.

How do keys enable the main kind(s) of fraud on PC?

I know little about the topic, other than regional pricing being abused using VPNs.

Thanks!

I ask because I like keys. They are convenient. And the 12 digits that need typing aren't that big a deal. I have a hunch this is going to be detrimental to customers.
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,928
How do keys enable the main kind(s) of fraud on PC?

I know little about the topic, other than regional pricing being abused using VPNs.

Thanks!

I ask because I like keys. They are convenient. And the 12 digits that need typing aren't that big a deal. I have a hunch this is going to be detrimental to customers.
People buy them with stolen card details then flip them on key-reselling sites. People will tell you that you should just check publisher sites and only buy from authorised resellers, but seriously: who's going to do that? In fact, how would most consumers even know to do that?
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,296
America
People buy them with stolen card details then flip them on key-reselling sites. People will tell you that you should just check publisher sites and only buy from authorised resellers, but seriously: who's going to do that? In fact, how would most consumers even know to do that?

Oh, ok. Sounds to me like this is mostly a credit card security issue. I know those fraudsters also use preloaded app store cards (iTunes / Google Play) and other instant-delivery, easily resold digital goods.

There are many things that can be done to mitigate it, but they all have false positives and will result in some customer annoyance. Credit card companies sometimes decline my legit transactions for instance. Especially if I'm out of the country or buying something expensive and fraud-prone like a laptop.

I am sure they have balanced the two and come up with an acceptable level of fraud (maybe 1-2% ?) that has a low enough false positive rate (maybe 1-2%). Actual % will vary depending on what they deem optimal for profit.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,676
People buy them with stolen card details then flip them on key-reselling sites. People will tell you that you should just check publisher sites and only buy from authorised resellers, but seriously: who's going to do that? In fact, how would most consumers even know to do that?

and like anybody searching for cheap keys gives a shit, as long as they work.

If steam started revoking stolen keys, then it would be a different story
 

DontHateTheBacon

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,281
They even support partial refunds

twitter.com

Joshua Boggs on Twitter

“Whoa whoa what?! I’ve clearly been around for too long because I find this refund for a discount I missed on the ⁦@EpicGames⁩ store absolutely mind blowingly generous. This is incredible?”
I read this earlier and I was pretty shocked by this, this seems overly generous? I'm okay with it though! Nothing worse than buying a game and then, two days later, it's on sale for half off.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
Strangely enough, most gaming news I see is on this forum instead. And EGS stuff happens to pop up more lately than Steam. I guess giveaways and a sale might do that though.

I don't know if you use the mobile app, but it always opens to the news section for me. All updates and other tidbits are there if you're curious.
The latest thing seems to be "Play Next", that uses machine learning to help people with large Steam collections, decide what they should play next.
 

lucebuce

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,889
Pakistan
I always chuckle at the fact that the Unreal Engine Marketplace has a shopping cart in the application but not the EGS client.
 

Shogun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,431
Keyless Integration is shit though. I don't want to have to link my account worth thousands of pounds to multiple websites to save a few seconds redeeming a game. Trading spare keys is also a great way to flesh out your library on sites like Barter.vg and SteamTrades.
 

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,238
I read this earlier and I was pretty shocked by this, this seems overly generous? I'm okay with it though! Nothing worse than buying a game and then, two days later, it's on sale for half off.

Steams refund policy allows this - but the implementation is not a friendly one.
It essentially demands that you already know of the sale after your purchase, then manually seek a refund, then buy the game again during the sale.
Really not ideal at all, but at least they guarantee you can do it
 

Dinjoralo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,106
They are approaching competency. Meanwhile, Steam is still slowly moving the goalpost further and further ahead with new, useful feature updates, even while they're still at the front of the pack in that regard.
Every time I open EGS I cry inside. How can a multi billion company have such a shitty flagship product? The interface is so fucking laggy I can visibly see the latency when scrolling, which by the way isn't smooth. There is no acceptable reason for the scrolling in the store to not be perfectly buttery smooth. It's like they tried to replicate the early 00's museum touch screen experience.
That's what happens when you make your client using your game engine to render webpages instead of just using something purpose built to handle webpages, for some idiot reason.
Seriously, why. There is no sane reason for their store to be made in Unreal 4.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,676
Whenever it does happen, it's a scandal and people blame the publisher. This is why I totally don't blame them for wanting to go keyless.

Plus I suppose that going keyless and providing a link between the store and the retailer also allows for the retailer to issue refunds and whatnot in a very straightforward way
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
As someone not familiar with the fraud, can you explain what you mean for my uninformed mind?

Buy keys with stolen credit card, sell to unsuspecting idiots on g2a. Devs/store will have to pay charge back fees.
If keys were just links, they could not be resold, reducing risk.

Even worse, gamers will most likely cry to developers or news sites rather than store after their copy gets revoked
 

Barrel Cannon

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,286
Buy keys with stolen credit card, sell to unsuspecting idiots on g2a. Devs/store will have to pay charge back fees.
If keys were just links, they could not be resold, reducing risk.

Even worse, gamers will most likely cry to developers or news sites rather than store after their copy gets revoked
Ah I see, makes sense. I don't buy much on PC outside of storefronts/boxed copies/humble bundle so I wasn't sure how this all worked
 

RyuCookingSomeRice

Alt account
Banned
Feb 5, 2020
1,009
Ah a keyless market where they can control everything.

Lmao, why would anybody be pro on this?

Oh right, the people who want the pc marketplace to be as closed off and in control by the publishers, just like consoles!

YEAY CONSOLES

YEAY EPIC

OUR NEW DIGITAL OVERLORDS
 

TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,370
Tulsa, Oklahoma
That's great they are taking the Steam approach to refunds. I still prefer Steam whenever possible, but i have no qualms using Epic for games anymore.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,676
Ah a keyless market where they can control everything.

Lmao, why would anybody be pro on this?

Oh right, the people who want the pc marketplace to be as closed off and in control by the publishers, just like consoles!

YEAY CONSOLES

YEAY EPIC

OUR NEW DIGITAL OVERLORDS

Please explain what the difference between a keyless and a key'd marketplace is?
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,676
You can go to a site like CDKeys and buy a game via Steam key at a fraction of the cost from the actual store

I think you are confusing keyless sale with "we are banning resellers"
Keyless resale simply facilitates the selling of keys in the same fashion, via resellers, but without the redemption component.
 

Tunesmith

Fraud & Player Security
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,936
I am sure they have balanced the two and come up with an acceptable level of fraud (maybe 1-2% ?) that has a low enough false positive rate (maybe 1-2%). Actual % will vary depending on what they deem optimal for profit.
In simplified terms as a merchant you generally want to see less than 1% of your sales as fraud. That's typically the baseline because you start seeing very hefty fines from card schemes like Visa and MasterCard and other providers if you go above that. Prolonged failure to keep fraud at a minimum in worst cases loses you the option of transacting with them at all.

If steam started revoking stolen keys, then it would be a different story
Steam revokes keys by the thousands every single day, and also provides reporting to merchants selling on steam to enable merchants revoking keys on their own systems. Steam also supports direct integration. The reason Steam keys are still around I imagine is a combination of a few things, Steam's market size, the sheer amount of keys still in circulation, and that they simply put can currently afford to eat the costs associated with keeping keys as a commodity to be abused around.
As someone not familiar with the fraud, can you explain what you mean for my uninformed mind?

Kittens McMittens gave a brief explanation of the problem, quoting below.
People buy them with stolen card details then flip them on key-reselling sites. People will tell you that you should just check publisher sites and only buy from authorised resellers, but seriously: who's going to do that? In fact, how would most consumers even know to do that?
Basically, where you as a customer see a good deal, fraudsters see the same good deal but at scale. Which they will abuse and abuse until it's dead in order to make profit, usually without spending any of their own $ capital. Sourcing their capital instead from stolen payment instruments, or accounts. Compromised accounts and payments are sometimes used, but not necessarily. There's an entire fraud industry around generating accounts and building bogus but good-looking customer histories that can fool first line fraud prevention systems on various platforms. Accounts that then gets traded or sold for the sole purpose of using them to commit fraud later down the line whenever opportunity arises (sales, big launches etc.).

It's never a dull moment in the fraud and security industry let me tell you. :)

Keyless integrations removes the commodity that fraud can very very easily abuse to make a profit, or at least, it forces fraud to invest resources in creation of accounts to actually abuse the system. Accounts which are much easier to collect metrics around to trace and prevent.

These mitigation factors impact legitimate customers also of course. You can no longer give a key to a friend, your friend has to have an account first etc. etc. One bad actor (or in this scenario, organised crime) ruins the fun for everyone else.
 
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