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OP
OP
Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
This is disingenuous.

There's very rare cases where, indeed, difficulty is front-and-center of the vision - i'm talking about FROM Software games, obviously - and for those, it's fair to trot out "Vision" as an argument
I mean, they branded das 1 remaster as "Prepare to Die".

Anything that doesn't weave harsh difficulty in all it's design, yeah, the argument doesn't make sense.
I mean, nobody every whined that XCOM should remove difficulties below Commander - but really, there's one developer that wants to do interesting ludonarrative things with death, loss and challenge - is that too much?

And i'd absolutely support accessibility for Souls - but it starts before difficulty, with pause buttons, decent rebindability, easier checkpointing, color options, and whatnot.
The point of accessibility should be to let everyone access the experience on their own terms, not creating a completely different one.

There's also games where an hard mode would alter radically the experience - things like, say, Animal Crossing, or pure-narrative anything, or really a wide array of games where skill testing wouldn't create any value, and isn't done.

Now, i also hard failed at Sekiro pretty early in, and honestly resent how railroaded it is compared to the various Souls - which provided an entire toolbox of tools, from grinding to summons to more forgiving builds (think parry dual wield vs mage heavy shield in das1\2), but eh. It's one game, and the playstyle i wanted from it just isn't in that game - and it's not going to appear because difficulty was tweaked.
Nothing disingenuous about it. People dogpile on easy games and on motion blur and the like, rejecting developers vision but when it comes to asking for easy mode suddenly said vision is important. Lol. It's pure hypocrisy and there's nothing beyond it.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,302
The thing about Celeste is that it has this extremely good set of screens

5INKToJxsz_rJvEtTBNAZdnLsCr-2M9000mo1ZgDpQc.png


Like a game can still feature the developer's original vision while also opening it to more players because a good game is more than just its difficulty level. In Celeste's case it may be the narrative, or the general game feel. In the case of something like Dark Souls or Bloodborne, someone might fall in love with the lore, or the art assets, or the enemy designs, or countless other things that aren't instrinsically tied to the difficulty. IMO it's actively doing a disservice to those games to assume there's only one way to appreciate them. Especially when there are well known exploits that trivialize the game already, they just require a few more hoops to be jumped through.

Just copy Celeste's example and outright tell the player "this isn't the way we built the game but for those who want to experience the game on their own terms, here are some options."
Yup, pretty much this. If anybody takes issue with an implementation of an Easy / Assist Mode of this delivery, I seriously have to question what their end game might be.
 

Snake Eater

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,385
When there is a difficulty spike it's going on easy mode, I'm too old to be spending hours at one spot
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
Why buy a game you clearly know you couldn't handle?
Not everything has to be for everyone.
"Why include ramps on buildings? You shouldn't go in the building if you can't go up steps. Not everything has to be for everyone."

It would be backseat modding to call for a ban on this kind of bullshit, but I am soooo tired of it.
 

Professor Beef

Official ResetEra™ Chao Puncher
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,498
The Digital World
Listen, Mendinso.

This thread's OP is based around discussing difficulty as a means of circumventing poor game design, you do not get to turn it into a battlefield on accessibility for disabled gamers. The thread already has a clear context on which it has been built and you are co-opting it for a completely different discussion.

You know I am disabled as well. Accessibility and the right to have it means the world to both us us, it is our right to exist in this dimension. But THIS is not the thread to fight over it.

You can't quote someone who was responding to the OP and interject the context of the disabled.

Now let me say this of the entire community. Would it be great if people had the empathy to consider US, before they started typing shit about how games should be left up to creators and how every game shouldn't be playable or beatable by everyone? Of course. But they are probably aren't' picturing people who are disabled when they say those things, they are talking about people who suck at games.

Can discussion of games on this message board be moderated as akin to a theatre only having a flight of stairs as entrance? Can it be policy that not considering the disabled before discussing difficulty is subject to action? Please, tell me your thoughts on this.
thank you
I don't relate to the OP at all. Video games present a specific set of objectives and obstacles for me to complete. Overcoming them is the entire point.

Also the boldness of saying a boss you can't beat is badly designed is really offputting and bizarre. As is accusing an increase in difficulty being "bad game designs." It sounds like you're saying if game progression is not spoon fed to you then the game is a bad. Throwing game designers and playtesters under the bus because you can't beat a boss reads like trolling. It's very weird.

If someone plays their games like this then that's fine, but I don't think that qualifies someone to be making value judgments on game design and game quality as a result. Cheats and modifiers can make a game a lot of fun (Tony Hawk and GoldenEye come to mind). I also replay games on easy with modifiers to get trophies (hello TLoU Pt II). But the notion that games are bad because they are not easy is alienating to me.
and you
 

Deleted member 68415

User-requested account closure
Banned
May 6, 2020
7
User Banned (permanent): Troll account
"Why include ramps on buildings? You shouldn't go in the building if you can't go up steps. Not everything has to be for everyone."

It would be backseat modding to call for a ban on this kind of bullshit, but I am soooo tired of it.

There's a difference in not being able to play some specific games that are designed to be challenging and being able to walk up a staircase.
And oh no someone has an opinion i can't stand pls ban :"((
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
There's a difference in not being able to play some specific games that are designed to be challenging and being able to walk up a staircase.
And oh no someone has an opinion i can't stand pls ban :"((
Literally they are not different. Differently abled people, for one reason or another, might not be able to walk up a staircase to enter a stadium as it was originally designed. They also might not be able to play a game as it was originally designed, due to poor motor skills, colorblindness, age, experience, or just being, you know, bad at games.

You're being a gatekeeping dick, and for that, yeah, I'd support a ban. You're telling people to get away from your hobby instead of supporting those different from you to enjoy the same sorts of experiences.

Anyway, blocked.
 

Deleted member 68415

User-requested account closure
Banned
May 6, 2020
7
CrossCode is not a hard game and ONE boss in 35h gave me a hard time. I beat a boss after this one with ease. So, yeah, GTFO with this shit.
Then it's a badly designed boss that needs to be properly balanced.
I could never beat Seymour at Mount Gagazet for example when i could steamroll everything else in the game and never managed to beat it.
Sometimes you need to be able to take something on the chin and live with it.
 

Inquisitive_Ghost

Cranky Ghost Pokemon
Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,118
Not everything has to be for everyone.
If this argument had any merit, there wouldn't be thriving fanbases of women and POC for literally every medium and genre out there, given how traditional representation in Western media just throws women and everyone who isn't white under the bus all the time. It's slowly improved over the years, but I'm thinking about stuff like classic literature, old science fiction, etc.

People love the stories---and games--they love, and there are many, many reasons to enjoy games beyond just difficulty. And difficulty is mostly subjective anyway. Telling those people that it shouldn't be "for them" is no different from spreading harmful nonsense about "girls don't play games" or "comics are for white people" or what have you. It's condescending and it's wrong.

And oh no someone has an opinion i can't stand pls ban :"((
Your opinion actively demands people justify their enjoying something when you do not make the same demand of the larger majority. It is the oldest method of condescending exclusion that there is.
 
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OP
OP
Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
Then it's a badly designed boss that needs to be properly balanced.
I could never beat Seymour at Mount Gagazet for example when i could steamroll everything else in the game and never managed to beat it.
Sometimes you need to be able to take something on the chin and live with it.
No, I paid for the game and I want to see the content, see, my money is valuable. So difficulty options you go.
And Seymour Flux can be easily beaten if you fill the overdrive for all aeons and use it before Seymour dispose of it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,247
I'm all for more people enjoying games, be that through an easy mode or through an assist mode doesn't matter.

And people coming in to this thread handwaving and telling people to play something else or watch youtube, you're just gatekeeping and being shitty.

I've never cared on what difficulty level someone has finished a game, never. It's all the Souls git gud shit that has poisoned the discourse.
 

Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,538
CrossCode is not a hard game and ONE boss in 35h gave me a hard time. I beat a boss after this one with ease. So, yeah, GTFO with this shit.
Yeah I hate difficulty spikes like that in games. I can understand if a game gets gradually harder as you play but to be at a consistent difficulty and then spike out of nowhere only to go back to normal doesn't make as much sense.
 

Siobhan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
273
Is there a way to add easy/assist modes in multiplayer/competitive games?
Do you make The game just match make you with other people that have the assists on?
In theory, matchmaking should already function as a dynamic difficulty setting of sorts. Some games allow you to choose how much differentiation in rank there can be with who you get matched with. E.G., in Tekken IIRC You can choose to only get matched with people your rank, or up to X ranks higher than you, or any rank at all.
 

Coi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,808
I don't think that's a good idea, specially on games that are designed to be challenging like Souls games or bullet hells.
... And I know about Celeste, I played it but I think that if you play it with assist mode the game loses a lot in the gameplay area and it's a faaaaar different experience than playing it in the normal way. It can work for some people but in the end I think that no one can't deny that it's not the same experience.
Also, like 99,9% of games are coming with easy mode right?
 

MrRob

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,671
In my older age (40+) I don't have the patience for bad design that causes death or OVERLY difficult bosses/areas simply for the sake of it.

I'm 100% with you. I know I'm never going to Platinum another game again so I have absolutely ZERO qualms about playing on easy mode and bumping it up if I want more of a challenge. If I end up with a game that I get stuck on because of difficulty I'll give it maybe 10 to 15 tries and then I'm usually done with the game forever. I've probably missed some great experiences because of it. Hollow Knight immediately comes to mind. I broke my own rule and tried a few areas way over 20 times on several occasions. I won't double dip and buy it on switch now that I don't have my PS4.

It's made my hobby so much more enjoyable. I wish I would have had this same mindset 10 or 20 years ago instead of buying into some masculine bs about playing games on as hard difficulty as I could because I was a 'true gamer'. LMAO
 

Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,538
I buying into some masculine bs about playing games on as hard difficulty as I could because I was a 'true gamer'. LMAO
Ha, ha, yeah, I see what you mean. I normally try to aim for hard but not hardest unless I really like the game or just want to see what's different about it. I don't always have time for hardest but I tend to want some challenge in many of the games I play.
 

gogosox82

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,385
A number of people have literally argued that the mere existence of easier or more accessible modes ruins their experience, because they couldn't resist choosing an easier difficulty in order to bypass the level they apparently (???) want more.

it is ableist gatekeeping insanity, but hey, they're still goin' hard in the paint.
Well that's a bit much. I don't see how having an assist mode in the game would effect your game. Most games have difficultly modes already. It be hard to argue that every game you've played was worsened because it has a difficulty mode in it. That would make you not like most every game made in the last 10-15 years.
 
May 9, 2018
3,600
It's funny to see people argue against an actual lead game designer with respect to game difficulty.

In the "the Demon Souls remake should have an Easy Mode" thread, I asked "would anyone in this thread not buy Demon Souls if there was an Easy Mode?"

Everyone said they'd buy the game regardless. There's no point in difficulty gatekeeping.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
Failure, and response to failure, can be graphed, but not uniquely. For instance, I might lose on a boss a couple of times, and my excitement to try again -- assuming it's a fun boss -- may scale upwards as I get closer and closer to winning. At some point, assuming I don't win, that excitement begins to wane, and we'll see that curve trend to zero the longer and longer it takes. If I beat the boss around the time when my excitement is at its highest, the payoff is pretty significant. There's an entire third graph that details, specifically, the 'reward' a person gets -- the 'success' graph.

Making hard games is about trying to balance a *desire* for the player to fail, against a lot of different things. The first and perhaps most obvious to people is the "stakes." In a game, like, say, a rogue-like game: the stakes scale really, really highly; you can get all the way to the "end" of the game, fail, and it's all over. There's a lot on the line, and so the payoff here isn't just some reward, it's quite literally the binary of "I won" vs. "I lost" hanging there in the balance. Now, if you consider something like the Souls series, the stakes are often lower -- you may lose some souls, but ultimately, amortized, souls loss in those games are fairly meaningless. They're there to create a sense that you have something to lose.

There's a kind of microcosm of loss built in to boss battles where you spend, as OP describes, a certain amount of *time* doing something. You invest, and the expectation on the investment is reward. In very hard cases, it is not an unfamiliar experience for a Soulsborne player to need to spend hours upon hours before they can defeat a hard boss. Sometimes upwards of 4-7 hours of attempts. Other players may be able to defeat the same boss in 30 minutes to an hour. The differential here, often, is just a combination of luck in small percentage and skill in large percentage points.

The idea that there's a particular curve you can set that will work for everyone is nonsense, even if, statistically, most players will fall into some expected range. Of course, developers of 'hard' games understand that they are, in fact, creating games *for* people in this range. A lot of time is spent trying to refine the "not so hard you give up" ceiling with the "not so easy you beat everything on a first go" floor. The fundamental question about assist modes is, are they a practical solution for people who fall through the design floor? In other words, the game is almost certainly not 'meant' for these players in the sense that during a design phase, there wasn't consideration for their needs nomatter what they are (accessibility, lack of skill, etc).

Perhaps strangely, we've accepted that there often needs to be additional modes for people who blow through the ceiling. It's a kind of hilarious thing, actually, since you'll probably find way more people under the graph in the mediocre-to-good range than, say, the "so good you never get hit" range -- and yet, these games have the constant scaling NG+ modes designed, specifically, for people who continue to chase difficulty.

The primary concern developers will have is -- and this sounds awful, the way I'll phrase it here, but I don't mean to disparage developers in saying this -- "I didn't build this game for you, so how can I be certain that if there is an assist/easy mode, that you will *functionally* find yourself on a particular, expected spot on my reward graph." In other words, since they didn't build the game for 'easy', how can they be sure that you'll like the game... when it's easy?

It's a fair question, when some of these games have been clearly designed with an intent on creating bursts of euphoria through struggle. What, I think, developers fail to consider, is that when you augment the difficulty scale, you augment the reward as well. It is very often the case that, while it's probably not purely linear, people who play a game on easy because they *need* it to be on easy, still find it to be difficult. And the other option is, well, never finishing the game. Sadly, "not finishing" is held in high esteem by the communities around these games, even if it's not held in particularly high esteem by the developers (who wants to hear that only some small percentage of players actually finished their game? How crushing.)

I fully support easy modes and accessibility options in games as a 'rule.' Generally, I think that the napkin / psuedo-math I'm making up on the spot here actually works: even if developers didn't intend for their games to 'be easy', assuming the player has taken some care to approximate where they should land in difficulty, the expected reward comes out about as they would expect. There's some differentials there for games that legitimately have, as OP suggested, *bad bosses*. Or, inadequate or unfair stakes. These are games that even the hardest of the hardcore players have to admit don't fundamentally understand the value of difficulty. There are games that obscenely difficult where it is impossible to die or lose -- how is this possible, if death is the only justifiable mechanic to create difficulty? Short-sighted design certainly exists, and I can think of a few games that have engaged in it, or fail to even take the precautions that From does when creating boss battles, for instance, even when they are attempting to do nothing but emulate.

It is an unfortunate reality that most developers probably suspect that the napkin math here *doesn't* work -- that their game actually loses quality the easier it becomes. I'd suggest that From Software is *firmly* in this camp, and that is why -- despite support to do otherwise -- they will probably not offer overt difficulty or accessibility modes in their games. I think that is very unfortunate, because I want people to be able to play and enjoy these games -- even if it is a 'lesser' experience. I think Naughty Dog proved with The Last of Us 2 that you can have a *very* scalable experience that plays for *everyone*. Insofar as developers are unable to provide these modes due to lack of budgeting or manpower, I empathize: as a developer, things we want don't always happen even in software we deeply care about. To the extent that the consideration *never* happens? It just feels, well, inconsiderate. Especially when these same developers think so hard and care so much *and so often* about the opposite extreme.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,973
Wonder, my friend, I am confused and upset by this post.

...

I am sorry this opinion has disappointed you so greatly. I don't know how to answer to your feelings about it. But you and I are old friends who feel similarly about many things. I am saddened our divergence in this particular thread has let you down to the point of publicly denouncing me. I will think twice before posting in the future.

Please take care.

I have been, and always shall be your friend.

So, my friend, respectfully: You know too well how I hate this forum's penchant for dismissiveness and disrespect, and I agree that craftspeople and artists get too much shit over their creations here. But I don't think the OP or subsequent posters who resonated with the OP because of accessibility concerns were quite doing that this time. That some keep trying to break through with their perspectives from accessibility (and more and more from enjoyment) perspectives shows they actually appreciate the work developers have done and want more games overall.

As for the appropriateness of "personal context" that I see getting denied further down, people have different constraints on their time and ability to get through what others may have trained and busted their ass to successfully conquer. Should you get old (heh) like me, you will arrive a point of constraint eventually. When you do, I will welcome you all. For now, I embrace those whose constraints have been imposed on them unfairly, and those who seek to appreciate a work of craft and art (surely the result of many hours of sweat and passion) beyond the limits of their constraints and make their way up that mountain.

The rest will make their way on their own, as they do. When they reach journey's end at the top of the mountain, they will try to shout "This is not for you, and that's okay", but no one is actually around to hear them - did I mention they're on top of a mountain? Unless, of course, the others made it up the north side of the mountain (you know, the one that doesn't get enough light shone on it), and they just end up getting shouted at to their face, accomplishing nothing. The thing is, they were never going to get in the way of others' trek up the mountain - they have a different path, after all. People sometimes act like a mountain has only one side, and the forces of nature intended mountains to rise this way. I know, right? Related to what someone mentioned earlier, once they find out that a mountain has more than one side, it turns out people will still want to climb it anyway.

You know, when you're on top of a mountain, and you see all the streams become rivers and the rivers flow down, you come to see the truth - the sea refuses no river. Having proclaimed victory at the top so many times, how people haven't taken a moment to check out this view is stunning.

I still remain your friend, Finale. I too will be reticent to post in the future, upsetting you was never the goal or intention, like you said the times are strained enough right now.
 

TechnicPuppet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,808
Young people in good health with great reflexes and hand to eye coordination are playing every game in easy mode already.

That's not enough for some though, they want stop others even getting to experience some games.
 

freetacos

Member
Oct 30, 2017
13,172
Bay Area, CA
The entire argument of "the challenge is the point of the game" falls apart when people point out that "challenge" is subjective and that an "easy"/"assist" mode may be just as challenging for someone as the 'regular' version is for you.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,962
Between this, and seeing an admin in the constructive thread call for people who are fighting for respect in community representation here, to keep quiet and let staff handle things - when that admin got to be an admin from being so strong in word and not keeping quiet about representation and not being satisfied with the way staff were handle things - it's leaving me feeling especially disappointed these days.
OT but this is such an eloquent verbalisation of one of my frustrations right now and I wanted to say thanks for sharing it.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
I am just telling you that even if you want a challenge you still consciously and subconsciously do the easier thing because we all generally do that as we skew towards the path of least resistance in general. Me talking that point doesn't mean I agree with the original person's stance, just adding some clarity as to whole thing.

You need options removed because it is too difficult for you to exercise self control. Mmmmm.

I used to be mixed on this idea. But after playing FF7R on Easy, I am all for it. Hell House on harder difficulties was a chore, so I bumped it down and never looked back. I'm a believer in it (if implemented well).
That is a great example of a boss they balanced for new game plus. On hard with new game plus he is good,but they clearly didn't balance him for normal.
 

Dphex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,811
Cologne, Germany
No, I paid for the game and I want to see the content, see, my money is valuable.

lol, what kind of entitlement is that? really bad take. just paying for something doesn´t mean it allows to experience everything there is. if you pay for a festival and are hanging around stage X you will not be able to experience things happening on stage Y, regardless of the fact that you have paid for a festival ticket.

The entire argument of "the challenge is the point of the game" falls apart when people point out that "challenge" is subjective and that an "easy"/"assist" mode may be just as challenging for someone as the 'regular' version is for you.

and because of that, games have to pander to everyone instead of accepting that a game is too hard for some people?

i am constantly miffed that games are generally too easy these days, let people have their 5 games per generation that can be considered hard.

There's no point in difficulty gatekeeping.

there is. the point is to provide a similar experience to everyone playing instead of having people steamrolling the content and have no fist pumping "fuck yeah i´ve made it finally!" moments. this would completely go out of the window if every game had difficulty settings.

but people can´t even understand the concept of that if they can´t be bothered playing challenging games at all and just want instant gratification.
 

Deleted member 51789

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 9, 2019
3,705
lol, what kind of entitlement is that? really bad take. just paying for something doesn´t mean it allows to experience everything there is. if you pay for a festival and are hanging around stage X you will not be able to experience things happening on stage Y, regardless of the fact that you have paid for a festival ticket.
If I've learnt anything from this thread, it's that people are absolutely terrible at making analogies and that analogies in general are an awful way to make a point because the context of the examples given will invariably be different enough that a direct comparison is pointless.
 

Cels

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,772
i don't mind easy/assist mode at all. when i played celeste i used assist mode to practice particularly hard sequences without having to do the tedious parts before it, then i turned it off when I felt ready to move on.

This was the original text when the game introduces its assist mode

Assist Mode allows you to modify the game's rules to reduce its difficulty. This includes options such as slowing the game speed, granting yourself invincibility or infinite stamina, and skipping chapters entirely. Celeste was designed to be a challenging but accessible game. We believe that its difficulty is essential to the experience. We recommend playing without Assist Mode your first time. However, we understand that every player is different. If Celeste is inaccessible to you due to its difficulty, we hope that Assist Mode will allow you to still enjoy it.

The developer stated that the intent was that difficulty is essential to the experience, but every player is different, so assist mode offered the option to bypass the difficulty if the game was too hard.
Sadly this original text was construed by some as making people feel like less of a person for using assist mode, so they changed it.
But I still think there's some merit to that text, especially about difficulty -- if you turned on invincibility and infinite dashes and played through the whole game or significant portions of the game like that I think you're getting way less of an experience than someone who's going through with assist mode off, but it is your choice to do that and I have no problem with that at all.
 

Deleted member 49535

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2018
2,825
Not everyone has to be able to experience everything. Just because I can't stand first person camera in games (it makes me nauseous) doesn't mean no games should use it.
 

freetacos

Member
Oct 30, 2017
13,172
Bay Area, CA
and because of that, games have to pander to everyone instead of accepting that a game is too hard for some people?

i am constantly miffed that games are generally too easy these days, let people have their 5 games per generation that can be considered hard.
I don't think a game *has* to do anything. I think more games *should* have easy/assist modes because the majority of arguments I've seen against them boil down to gatekeeping garbage. As someone else in this thread said, I think "not every game is for everyone" should be based on taste, not accessibility
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
Nothing disingenuous about it. People dogpile on easy games and on motion blur and the like, rejecting developers vision but when it comes to asking for easy mode suddenly said vision is important. Lol. It's pure hypocrisy and there's nothing beyond it.

I've literally never seen anyone dogpile an easy mode.

The only time the suggestion for easy modes isn't taken well is with FROM games, and on that specific experience, an out-of-game toggle doesn't make sense (But ingame tools still work! Das1\2 had plenty of ways to pick your own difficulty without breaking immersion, from not using parry-based builds, to summons, to whatnot)

The point i'm trying to get through you is that difficulty is not a single slider.
Strategy checks, farm checks, information checks, coordination checks, timing checks, muscle memory checks and so many others test different skills, and there's plenty of ways to direct a player to a fun playstyle without relying on crude tools such as menu options.

Separately, if given the option, players will optimize the fun out of the game.
This is much less of an issue for "short" narrative games, and much more of an issue for GaaS, but it still exists - we call it degenerate gameplay, and the mere existance of it can often ruin the experience (for example, an 'overpowered' weapon available in the wrong moment of the game can literally delete vast swathes of gameplay by having a player over-rely on it)

A blunt example that may get through:

Let's say this is a Soulslike, that is, a game about mastery.
We're in area 6, and the planned design has 10 unavoidable monsters on the way, all of which have 1000hp.
The player has, in the toolbox, a weapon that is usable long-range, before-aggro, and deals 200 damage. 8 usages per area.
This weapon can be upgraded to 400 if the player specializes in it.

This isn't a timing check, this is a spatial reasoning check to reward scouting, patience, and planning.
It's a good design, and it works - players find it fun, rewarding, and as it's an optional mechanic - trading time for performance - even a mechanic that allows the player to choose what kind of difficulty is wanted.

Enter blunt difficulty scaling!

You have enabled Easy Mode. The monsters are now 6 per area, and have 400hp.
The entire area is deletable using only said weapon, with trivial difficulty. There's no gameplay left, the zone is trivial and boring, and it has absolutely none of the intended gameplay flow - it's just meh.

This is obviously a blunt example, but the reality of what we call tuning is entirely like this - the numbers are what they are for a reason, and fiddling with them to provide a proper experience is a full feature in it's own rights and absolutely not a trivial undertaking

This is not a theoretical exercise.
During the sixth gen, most bigshot titles went all in with blunt difficulty scaling, and the result was a EXTREMELY suboptimal combat experience on all modes except the default - and even that, getting less tuning attention than usual, was often unsatisfactory

Obviously, combat and challenge is not the first pillar of all these games, but the reality is that what used to be the nigh entirety of gaming up to gen 4 was now an underserved market, a market that was served again on the coattails of Souls' success.

Now, is your game a game about Narrative, a game about Exploration, a game about Relaxation, a game about literally anything else except Mastery?
Go ahead. Providing, if nothing else, a Story \ Relaxing mode with substantial invincibility has literally no downsides, and i fully support doing that.

Is your game mostly about mastery? Tread lightly. Invest heavily in tuning for multiple modes, or don't at all. In-game tools are preferable to Out-game tools.

Is your game fully about mastery, and narratively and atmospherically about death, loss and challenge? Blunt scalings aren't going to cut it, and providing a Story mode that's not extremely clearly labelled \ hidden can, with one button tap, delete the entirety of your game.

This isn't about gatekeeping, or bragging rights, or whatever.
I'm just trying to explain that difficulty and challenge are major tools in a game designer's toolbox, and they require work, effort, planning and compromise to deploy effectively - both for pure gameplay goals and for narrative goals.
 

Deleted member 51789

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Jan 9, 2019
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I've literally never seen anyone dogpile an easy mode.
Not an easy mode, just for games being too easy for some players. Happens with every single Pokémon release and I distinctly remember it being used as a stick to beat Yoshi's Crafted World with when it came out.

Right now there's an ongoing topic about challenge and people talking about certain games being 'braindead easy', a phrase used multiple times in that thread and one that isn't exactly inclusive.

You can still absolutely not enjoy a game if you want a challenge and ask for a harder mode - nothing wrong with that - but the language used is generally not in that vein and instead is there to insult people who do play it and encounter difficulty, whether specifically aimed our not, or that the game creators were wrong in their vision (an argument used inversely by some people who don't want easier modes in harder games)
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
Not an easy mode, just for games being too easy for some players. Happens with every single Pokémon release and I distinctly remember it being used as a stick to beat Yoshi's Crafted World with when it came out.

Right now there's an ongoing topic about challenge and people talking about certain games being 'braindead easy', a phrase used multiple times in that thread and one that isn't exactly inclusive.

You can still absolutely not enjoy a game if you want a challenge and ask for a harder mode - nothing wrong with that - but the language used is generally not in that vein and instead is there to insult people who do play it and encounter difficulty, whether specifically aimed our not, or that the game creators were wrong in their vision (an argument used inversely by some people who don't want easier modes in harder games)

That's not an easy mode, that's a game so unchallenging it's boring.
That reaction mostly happens when a sequel is much easier than the first entry, because it fucks with expectations (Pokèmon is the prime example of this, because Blue\Red and maybe up to Ruby\Sapphire it was mostly challenging, and removed all challenge after that)
And at least on Pokèmon, developer vision is absolutely trotted out as an argument for undershooting difficulty. "But it's for kids!" mostly - there's plenty of people liking\defending the lack of challenge in various franchises, i really don't know where you've picked up the perception that there isn't


There's nothing wrong into not liking a game because it undershoots difficulty, just like there's nothing wrong into not liking a game because it overshoots difficulty.
 

Deleted member 51789

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That's not an easy mode, that's a game so unchallenging it's boring.
That reaction mostly happens when a sequel is much easier than the first entry, because it fucks with expectations (Pokèmon is the prime example of this, because Blue\Red and maybe up to Ruby\Sapphire it was mostly challenging, and removed all challenge after that)
And at least on Pokèmon, developer vision is absolutely trotted out as an argument for undershooting difficulty. "But it's for kids!" mostly - there's plenty of people liking\defending the lack of challenge in various franchises, i really don't know where you've picked up the perception that there isn't


There's nothing wrong into not liking a game because it undershoots difficulty, just like there's nothing wrong into not liking a game because it overshoots difficulty.
My point was that the person you initially replied too was talking about people dogpiling on easy games, then you changed that to modes for some reason.
No- one is talking about dogpiling on an easy mode in a game, just on easier games which definitely does happen.

I also specifically said that people are of course within their right to not like a game if it isn't challenging enough for them so I'm not sure on the point you're making by saying that? It's the language and attitude that I specifically have an issue with.

I also feel you're conflating people explaining why a situation is like it is (easier Pokémon games for a younger target audience) with people specifically defending that implementation.
 
Jun 2, 2019
4,947
The industry leader for how to handle difficulty spikes in games is From Software and Souls games. Should you ever struggle with those games, you can very easily summon another player and make the boss fight or level easy. This approach has many advantages compared to traditional easy modes:

1. The developers don't have to spend valuable resources developing other difficulty modes and can concentrate on the main experience. This makes for a more polished product and reduces the workload for the developers, which is very important considering how so many developers these days burn out due to crunch.

2. Co-op is less condescending than a traditional easy mode. You're playing exactly the same game as everyone else, just doing so while engaging in jolly cooperation. You still get the same sense of accomplishment after overcoming the challenge as someone who fights the boss on their lonesome

3. It makes the online mode more populated, which benefits EVERYONE playing the game.

4. Playing with others is a fun experience in and of itself

As the debate about difficulty in games rages on, I hope more developers consider following this example set by the industry leader, From Software.

I honestly wish the industry never takes From Software as an example on how to take game difficulty.

Requiring co-op/summoning to balance things? Sorry but that's bullshit. Not to mention, the difficulty of their games is high by default, and their games are highly punishing.
 

Majora85

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,105
The point is to provide a similar experience to everyone playing instead of having people steamrolling the content and have no fist pumping "fuck yeah i´ve made it finally!" moments. this would completely go out of the window if every game had difficulty settings.

What if someone still has the fist-pumping 'fuck yeah I've made it finally!' moment on an easy/assist mode? The problem with your argument is that it assumes that everyone comes into the game with the ability to overcome it on normal difficulty settings if they just persevere and try hard enough. There are some people for whom that is literally an impossibility, for various reasons, but through an assisted mode they might be able to enjoy the same kind of experience you do.

Some people just care entirely too much about how other people enjoy their games. You can sense annoyance at the sheer thought that, god forbid, someone somewhere maybe didn't have to try as hard to complete the game as you did. It doesn't matter that you still got to enjoy the intended experience, for some reason that simply isn't enough. No, you feel the need to force that mode on everyone because it really irks you if some theoretical stranger chooses an easier mode. It's nothing but weird elitism.
 

subpar spatula

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Oct 26, 2017
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Not a strong statement, I'll play games on the difficulty that I find them to be fun. That doesn't need to be 'hard' for me.
And that's the path of least resistance. Your mind is very powerful at convincing you of things especially things you want to hear without you realizing, so when someone goes, "Yeah, it is hard to not choose easier options when given" it rings true because we all do it, like, all the time for many, many things. To even laugh at whatever at him for that is bizarre.
 
Oct 26, 2017
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User Banned (3 days): hostility and inflammatory generalizations
I love how with games people turn into hardcore bootstraps conservatives lol.
Most arguments, even from Devs amount to nothing but gatekeeping trash.
Giving options should be regarded as best practice not some esoteric extra effort.
And if you want to restrict options, than face the music about people calling you out for it.
 

En-ou

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,839
I honestly wish the industry never takes From Software as an example on how to take game difficulty.

Requiring co-op/summoning to balance things? Sorry but that's bullshit. Not to mention, the difficulty of their games is high by default, and their games are highly punishing.
Balance things? It's a legit and direct way to help a player who's having issues on a segment. It will work for any player skill. What is the problem? Oh because it's doesn't have a thing at the start where you press down and it says EASY? Dumb.
 

Loud Wrong

Member
Feb 24, 2020
13,876
That's not an easy mode, that's a game so unchallenging it's boring.
That reaction mostly happens when a sequel is much easier than the first entry, because it fucks with expectations (Pokèmon is the prime example of this, because Blue\Red and maybe up to Ruby\Sapphire it was mostly challenging, and removed all challenge after that)
And at least on Pokèmon, developer vision is absolutely trotted out as an argument for undershooting difficulty. "But it's for kids!" mostly - there's plenty of people liking\defending the lack of challenge in various franchises, i really don't know where you've picked up the perception that there isn't


There's nothing wrong into not liking a game because it undershoots difficulty, just like there's nothing wrong into not liking a game because it overshoots difficulty.
That's a fact. If a game I like isn't sufficiently difficult, I generally stop playing. Doesn't happen very often though. The last time I quit a game because it was stupidly easy on the hardest setting was Kingdoms of Amalur, and I think it was that easy due to a game design mistake. If it gets fixed in the remake, I might try it again.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,302
Of course people will choose easier options if its available even if they want to play harder difficulties. That's just the path of least resistance doing its thing. People overwhelming will choose the easier option if given it. You do it all the time even if you look to challenge yourself. I do too. We all do it because for our brains it's just simpler. It's basically how a lot of innovation happens: people are lazy and don't want to do too many steps.
People tend to generally choose the easier options in life.
I am just telling you that even if you want a challenge you still consciously and subconsciously do the easier thing because we all generally do that as we skew towards the path of least resistance in general.
It makes us hypocritical, but it's hard to condition ourselves to always challenge ourselves. We're a lazy species.
And that's the path of least resistance. Your mind is very powerful at convincing you of things especially things you want to hear without you realizing, so when someone goes, "Yeah, it is hard to not choose easier options when given" it rings true because we all do it, like, all the time for many, many things.
tenor.gif
 

laoni

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,710
Goddamn this thread has shown me people dont give a fuck about gamers with disabilities jfc

Part of the reason I made a thread specifically explaining how difficulty can be an accessibility option, and where a number of disabled posters are discussing about how the addition of options could help us personally, as well as just sort of generally collating some of the arguments we made in this thread.

www.resetera.com

Easy/Assist mode is a blessing as a current accessibility option. Let's encourage the adoption of more.

And not just for the visual/hearing disabilities. Historically, easy/assist modes, cheat codes and nodding games to be easier on the PC side have been used by disabled gamers to brute force accessibility. Especially for those that have motor/motor processing/mobility issues, these options have...
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
And that's the path of least resistance. Your mind is very powerful at convincing you of things especially things you want to hear without you realizing, so when someone goes, "Yeah, it is hard to not choose easier options when given" it rings true because we all do it, like, all the time for many, many things. To even laugh at whatever at him for that is bizarre.
You keep repeating the same thing without admitting that you don't want difficulty options because it is too difficult for you not to chose easy. So you want people to make your life easy by taking the options away.