I think that's a shifting of the goalposts though largely, considering it trivialises most fights where it's an option. If used throughout it's an "easier" experience than if not and the two are not immediately relatable in a social sense.
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Easy/Assist mode is a blessing. Every game should have it.
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I can attest that the only reason I got through Tales of Vesperia Definitive Edition was because I could bump the difficulty down to Easy. I wanted to see the story this "crown jewel" of the series had and couldn't deal with the boring combat. (Graces, which came after, spoiled me on how perfect it's combat was) Doing this locked me out of obtaining Grade for NG+ stuff, which I was fine with. I have zero desire of revisiting the game.
Exactly. I currently dropped (but haven't erased) Bloodstained on PS4. I forget if the difficulty is locked or interchangable mid game but despite the difficult area I'm in, I think it has more to do with me not being as big a fan of "metroidvanias" as I thought I was. This is taste and I'm fine with admitting that the game may not be for me.
It's hand wringing slippery slope nonsense.
Ghost of Tsushima has it the it just right, allowing you to switch as and when you wish depending on how you wish to play and feel at the time. I love the game, play it daily as it should be played, but I have 3 times adjusted the difficulty to allow me to kill a boss (early days) that was taking multiple attempts, losing its fun. Only today, now 3 quarters through the game exploring and being able to take on just about anything, I turned on assist so I could complete an annoying bamboo strike. The point is, it's allowing me to play the and have fun without stressing out, feeling hard done by or frustrated. I immediately switch back after using the feature whenever I feel a need, which works well. it shouldn't worry anyone how someone else's wishes to play the game, so let's be having more of these options.
Not every game has to force me to have self-control the same way not every game has to be difficult. Don't see how it invalidates my argument. "Just play something else" has nothing to do with "Just don't play the easy mode".
And when I talk about just watch on YouTube I'm not saying from a higher ground. I do this myself. I did this with the optional difficult boss of DS3, do this with some pain in the ass long boss fights on RPGs, or some ending locked into doing a lot of stuff. My time nowadays are very limited to some of this stuff. Though I'm not the one proposing that every experience should cater to me.
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Listen, Mendinso.
This thread's OP is based around discussing difficulty as a means of circumventing poor game design, you do not get to turn it into a battlefield on accessibility for disabled gamers. The thread already has a clear context on which it has been built and you are co-opting it for a completely different discussion.
You know I am disabled as well. Accessibility and the right to have it means the world to both us us, it is our right to exist in this dimension. But THIS is not the thread to fight over it.
You can't quote someone who was responding to the OP and interject the context of the disabled.
Now let me say this of the entire community. Would it be great if people had the empathy to consider US, before they started typing shit about how games should be left up to creators and how every game shouldn't be playable or beatable by everyone? Of course. But they are probably aren't' picturing people who are disabled when they say those things, they are talking about people who suck at games.
Can discussion of games on this message board be moderated as akin to a theatre only having a flight of stairs as entrance? Can it be policy that not considering the disabled before discussing difficulty is subject to action? Please, tell me your thoughts on this.
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I'm sorry, have you described why you think basketball hoops shouldn't be able to be lowered for people of lesser height or skill?
Come on, I'm waiting.
Games should be made as the creators intended, if they want to allow assist mode to make difficulty easier then fair, but if their vision is gated behind a skill climb in order to overcome the obstacles created that is fair too.
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I bet you disable chromatic aberration, depth of field, film grain and motion blur if the developer lets you despite that not being their vision, don't you? Why can you have that and can't we have easy modes? I'll make a thread about this hypocrisy at a later date.
I'm a console gamer so I don't usually have access to any of that lol. I think that it's fair to add in things that don't directly affect gameplay if that's what the developer wants, but if a games film grain is there to fully encompass the creative directors vision and can't be turned off I won't complain. Sekiro or Hollow Knight would be vastly different games if the difficulty wasn't so steep, some games aren't meant to be enjoyed by everyone. I'm not a huge fan of some of the excessively complex strategy games that exist, but I also don't want them to change their core components to suit my own needs.
Games should be as modular as possible in the present day. There's no reason anyone shouldn't be able to the option to customize their play experience of, say, a Devil May Cry game, as much as possible. Likewise, I should be able to not have my first playthrough be easy like the past three games.
I also think it's the developer's prerogative how accessible they want their game to be, if at all. But then they should expect at least some degree of criticism if they don't have difficulty modes, or controller options or proper subtitle options in their game.
I also think it's the developer's prerogative how accessible they want their game to be, if at all. But then they should expect at least some degree of criticism if they don't have difficulty modes, or controller options or proper subtitle options in their game.
Chill out man, no need to be so agressive.
Look at this example: Sekiro is a dificult game. The devs have come up with a (fantastic) combat system that can be summarized as the player needing to
learn the enemy attack patterns, or at least learn to identify the individual attacks and perform the corresponding defensive maneouvers. For someone with disabilities there are a lot of things that can be done without dumbing down the experience and robbing him/her of the challenge:
- The devs can add optional, clearer visual cues. They can even add highly different cues for attacks that require different defensive maneouvers.
- Likewise, the devs can add additional audio cues.
- Force feedback can be used as well.
- The devs can make the animations skip frames and reach earlier the main keyframes of the attacks, holding for them for longer which helps identify them.
- They can also make the parry timings wider.
- Usually action games have a minimum time that is used as base for many enemy actions, so that the player can react to them. This time can be expanded.
- The whole game can be made a bit slower.
- They can simplify some inputs like forward+dash for the mikiri counter into a single button press, or turn the air kick into a single button press as well.
Now, if you preffer an option where you can OHKO all bosses that's fine, but's that's not what the devs intended and that's not what drove the game design. What's more, they have never even said that making the game easier was even remotely a goal for any Souls entry, so I think that it's not fair to give them hell for not addressing it. It's their prerrogative to make games based around a demanding combat system and it's yours to not buy them. And trying to put myself into their shoes for a moment, I think that if I put a lot of time and effort into developing an amazing combat system, with many different enemies and situations that take advantage of everything, I would like the players to experience it all, not activate an option in a menu and rush through it without even scratching the surface of what the game really has to offer.
I think it depends on the game. I love the Wichter 3 but I'm don't like the combat. Honestly Normal or Easy are totally acceptable to me, and the latter was honestly more enjoyable.
However, as a From Software obsessive fan, I believe their games are designed so perfectly that difficulty options aren't necessary.
1. Almost every boss has weaknesses. You need to exploit them. This require learning the move set. It's normal for me to go up a few times against a boss to learn the moves. My goal is to figure out how I can stay alive. Then it's how to strike while staying alive. Rewuiresments: patience, waiting for the right time to strike.
2. Or with higher level weapons, buffs, etc.
3. There's always the options to cheese. For example, in Bloodborne, through Molotovs or poison knives, etc.
4. Use NPCs or summon real people.
However, as a From Software obsessive fan, I believe their games are designed so perfectly that difficulty options aren't necessary.
1. Almost every boss has weaknesses. You need to exploit them. This require learning the move set. It's normal for me to go up a few times against a boss to learn the moves. My goal is to figure out how I can stay alive. Then it's how to strike while staying alive. Rewuiresments: patience, waiting for the right time to strike.
2. Or with higher level weapons, buffs, etc.
3. There's always the options to cheese. For example, in Bloodborne, through Molotovs or poison knives, etc.
4. Use NPCs or summon real people.
Of course people will choose easier options if its available even if they want to play harder difficulties. That's just the path of least resistance doing its thing. People overwhelming will choose the easier option if given it. You do it all the time even if you look to challenge yourself. I do too. We all do it because for our brains it's just simpler. It's basically how a lot of innovation happens: people are lazy and don't want to do too many steps. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that it is actually difficult to choose in those scenarios because to our brains the easier option is way more alluring, and that feeling is hard to condition away.
Already addressed this like 8 pages ago.
Not nearly every boss. Some games don't have them or barely do (Bloodborne pre-DLC patch). And many they are more of a hindrance or are practicually useless, especially in 1 and 2. And that's jut the FROM games. Their imitators either don't have NPCs, don't have online, or both. Good luck finding anyone for a boss fight in Hellpoint 2 months from now.
But you, and everyone that attempts to pretend that's an actual point probably already knew this.
Yeah there's zero reason for a lot of games not to have easy/accessibility modes. "B-b-but developers vision!" is a horse shit excuse. I remember Bayonetta's easy mode causing man children to lose their shit. No one gave a shit about the dev's vision then lol. Nah I've seen enough internet conversations to know that the mere fact that people dare to play a game on easy mode is an affront to gamer sensibilities.
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No. I always play normal. You can't say people will always pick easier options. I played Celeste without assist mode. Lots of people love choosing the hard mode. So, no. If you want a challenge, you have to git gud at not chosing easy mode.
For me I play on a lot of difficulties, from normal to hard to hardest often.
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So there's literally no need for the developer to baby feed you a hard difficulty.
People keep coming up with excuses but it's 100% on them of they can't help but choose the easy mode. Nobody should be punished because of it.
This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this site.
LOL. I guess no one ever chose anything above Easy in Halo, huh?
In some rare instances I would put on easy but that's mainly for some older games since they can be tough even on normal and sometimes easy even. For today's games I pretty much hardly if ever touch easy since a lot of games can even be managed on hard difficulties.
When playing on easy you definitely lose some of the experience. It's not like playing on Normal is hard.
Easy is when you just want to get through a game to see what happens/say you've played it, but don't really care about it.
Easy is when you just want to get through a game to see what happens/say you've played it, but don't really care about it.
Agreed. Easy/assist modes for all. I wouldn't use them, but some people would, and that should be enough. The gatekeeping around difficulty modes is really fucking stupid.
People tend to generally choose the easier options in life. A very obvious data source to see this in video games is the prevelance of meta builds in various MMOs. You can see in real time just how many people opt for an easy and quick summoner build in path of exile compared to more time investing and harder builds. I suspect difficulty choices skew to normal and under rather than higher difficulties.
I play Final Fantasy XIV. Literally anyone looking up endgame meta equipment and materia setups is guaranteed to be doing harder content, by choice. (And figuring out what is meta involves a lot of math, which is deeply removed from the actual experience of playing the game.) You're way off base, dude, and even if so, the idea that "you can't control yourself" being a good reason to make a game less accessible to people is vain and utterly contemptible.
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One thing I'll always struggle with is that I legitimately much, much, much prefer games with no difficulty selection at all due to a lot of subjective reasons, but I also think accessibility is more important than my enjoyment.
I do wish there was a way for me to get the game I like the most while at the same time not keeping anyone from playing it but I think the things I like are exclusionary by default.
I adore the feeling of "either put up with what I'm telling you or you can't see the rest of the game." I honestly adore that. I love when games make me have to adapt to them or just not play them -I feel annoyed when a game lets me customize it.
I also don't like being given choices because I feel like it changes how I approach the game on a fundamental level. Certain things like day, the ending of Last of Us 1 wouldn't have hit nearly as hard if they were just options. The fact that it was the one option I could get is what made it so memorable.
But much as I love games that don't let me customize them...yeah, end of the day accessibility just matters more. I guess I can always mod games into things I like more lol
I do wish there was a way for me to get the game I like the most while at the same time not keeping anyone from playing it but I think the things I like are exclusionary by default.
I adore the feeling of "either put up with what I'm telling you or you can't see the rest of the game." I honestly adore that. I love when games make me have to adapt to them or just not play them -I feel annoyed when a game lets me customize it.
I also don't like being given choices because I feel like it changes how I approach the game on a fundamental level. Certain things like day, the ending of Last of Us 1 wouldn't have hit nearly as hard if they were just options. The fact that it was the one option I could get is what made it so memorable.
But much as I love games that don't let me customize them...yeah, end of the day accessibility just matters more. I guess I can always mod games into things I like more lol
I am just telling you that even if you want a challenge you still consciously and subconsciously do the easier thing because we all generally do that as we skew towards the path of least resistance in general. Me talking that point doesn't mean I agree with the original person's stance, just adding some clarity as to whole thing.
Except literally a ton of us don't. You have no data or evidence to back that up. I did try to find salient statistics on Halo, and I couldn't, but I'm pretty sure the number of people picking "Easy" is well under fifty percent.
Just look at the ResetEra thread on the front page about "will you play a game that's too easy", and the vast majority are like, nope.
And again, EVEN IF THIS IS TRUE, it is still not a good reason to make a game less accessible. Which I guess you agree with, but it's all that matters.
You still haven't answered my question.
Should basketball hoops not be allowed to be lowered for those of lower height or skill?
It's easier at eight feet, right?
Except most people know that ten feet is the standard way to play, and so that's how they play.
This entire argument is bunk.
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I would assume anecdotal experience from a page or 2 on ResetEra isn't really much. I can easily point to the phenomenon of "flavor of the month" or meta builds in various online games that give credence to people choosing the easier options if available. POE.Ninja has lists of builds people use: https://poe.ninja/challengehcssf/builds -- it is overwhelming Necromancer and Trickster compared to almost everything else with 40%. This is a game where people pride themselves on the complexity of builds and some of the content, yet a lot -- a lot -- actually, ya know, just copy whatever some streamer did to faceroll the content. You can see it in other MMORPGs like World of Warcraft where the actual difficult content isn't pushed by a lot of the player base because even though there are incentives, you can do the easier stuff and call it a day because the prestige isn't worth the effort. I base my position on that type of phenomenon where people just do the easier thing if it is convenient for them because as much as we don't want to say it, we're not really up for a challenge most of the time. It's strange you're really trying to argue people don't consciously and subconsciously choose easier options. It makes us hypocritical, but it's hard to condition ourselves to always challenge ourselves. We're a lazy species.
And why are you asking me about basketball hoops? You're confusing me with someone else lol
Is there a way to add easy/assist modes in multiplayer/competitive games?
Do you make The game just match make you with other people that have the assists on?
Do you make The game just match make you with other people that have the assists on?
The Last of Us Part 2 getting an awesome Permadeath mode is a result of Naughty Dog allowing the game's difficulty, and accessibility to be greatly customizable.
Also, the whole FromSoft (lets stop beating around the bush, Soulsborne games are always at the center of these conversations) games are meant to be played at a certain difficulty levels is fucking bullshit. Every NG+ round bumps the difficulty UP. The games themselves SHIFT the difficulty level.
So what's the truth? Is the "Intended Difficulty" me getting one shotted by a boss in my first run, or getting one shotted by a naked madman with a spoon in NG+37?
Is the intended difficulty of the Amygdala boss fight in Bloodborne the original encounter, or the Defiled Chalice Dungeon version where FromSoft artificially bumped the difficulty by slashing your health by 50%?
Yall don't want to play "The developer's intended vision" for the game, yall want clout and bragging rights.
Also, the whole FromSoft (lets stop beating around the bush, Soulsborne games are always at the center of these conversations) games are meant to be played at a certain difficulty levels is fucking bullshit. Every NG+ round bumps the difficulty UP. The games themselves SHIFT the difficulty level.
So what's the truth? Is the "Intended Difficulty" me getting one shotted by a boss in my first run, or getting one shotted by a naked madman with a spoon in NG+37?
Is the intended difficulty of the Amygdala boss fight in Bloodborne the original encounter, or the Defiled Chalice Dungeon version where FromSoft artificially bumped the difficulty by slashing your health by 50%?
Yall don't want to play "The developer's intended vision" for the game, yall want clout and bragging rights.
This is not the same thing. In a competitive game, players will do anything to achieve an advantage over another player. That means going with meta builds because the player will do better with that build than with another comparable one. In a single player game, you're not competing against anyone, you're just choosing which difficulty you think will be the most enjoyable for you.
And while I was confusing you for someone else, the point still stands. Most bowling lanes offer bumpers. Most people *DON'T USE THEM*.
Doing something "easy" as a matter of survival makes sense. Because when you're playing a game, generally people find the enjoyment in being mentally stimulated. If they're bored, they're not having fun. And easy difficulties, for most people, are boring. You claiming that people who actually enjoy challenges will naturally gravitate toward boring options is ridiculous. They're not doing something they consider work, they're not doing something they want to get out of the way as quickly as possible.
Souls games bumping the difficulty up when you beat it is in line with what they want: to continuously challenge you. It makes sense you start off with their default difficulty and if you beat that, it gets harder. The intention in Souls games is to kill you, so using NG+ as an argument doesn't mean much.
Path of Exile isn't a competitive game. If anything, it's more single player because the game really sucks graphically when playing with others. High end streaming computers cannot even handle that awfulness well.
Additionally, for those of us who can't dunk, it's fun as hell to lower the rim to 8" for an abnormal game of hoops where we're all flying in trying to posterize one another. The other 99/100 times, we're back to 10", and the people who exist on the Internet didn't throw a shit fit because we chose to mess with the rules for a moment. But ... Gamers and all.
The entire point of the argument is that "Fixed difficulty is a feature" is completely bullshit for FromSoft games, which it absolutely is.
I feel like it's still a fair comment. Why are the games happy to raise the challenge for more experienced and talented players but unwilling to change for players who aren't as skilled?
Souls games are supposed to be challenging but an easy mode would still be harder for some than a NG+ would be for good players.
I don't personally care that Souls games don't have and easy difficulty but it will always feel like gatekeeping to me that so many people are against a mode that makes the game more enjoyable and accessible for other players.
It is a feature. The game is designed around difficulty. The intention is to kill you over and over. FromSoft does this by having a standard level of difficulty, and if you beat it then it goes up.
Because the game is designed and marketed around killing you. That's the goal of the game. Didn't they market the game where players played in an actual coffin?
You know what. You can go fuck yourself. Ban me.
Seriously, FUCKING BAN me. If you're gonna fucking enable these pieces of shit. If you're gonna fucking be disrespectful. Say I interjected, call ME SPECIFICALLY out. I dare you. Fucking. Ban. Me. I am tired of being disrespected as a disabled person on this board. I'm tired of being disrespected for my mental health issues. I'm tired of being disrespected, BY PEOPLE WHO THEMSELVES ARE ALSO DISABLED, AND AS A MODERATOR, ARE ENABLING THIS FUCKERS IN THIS THREAD.
You want a fucking battle ground? You, who is disabled, is also part of the problem enabling able-bodied gmaers on this fucking thread: Go Fuck yourself.
I am DONE.
User Banned (Permanent): Hostility and aggressive thread derailment over multiple posts; numerous prior bans for hostility and personal attacks
REALLY!? WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU! THIS IS PATHETIC EVEN FOR A MOD TO CALL SOMEONE OUT LIKE THAT RESIGN NOW GODDAMN IT!
Yeah sometimes I go to those trampoline places to dunk but apparently I didn't do grueling plyometrics training for six months to dunk on a ten foot rim so fuck me I guess
As somebody who grew up playing basketball, I did plyometrics for *years* and the best my 5'9" ass was able to do (at my athletic peak) was essentially push in a perfectly timed alley oop where my hand technically grabbed rim as it went through. Fact is, you can put in years and years or work, but sometimes there's a limit to what you're capable of doing.