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Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
Yes, and I would assume its the developer's intent to remove that temptation in turn.
Nope. I'd cheat myself and use those options if they are available. I would never have the joy I had with DS3 if an easy mode was a thing. There are plenty options of games nowadays. Just play something else or watch it on YouTube.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I assume you get mad when bowling lanes offer bumpers.

No one can ever reply to that statement, because it's impossible. Tell me with a straight face bowling lanes shouldn't have bumpers because it's not the way bowling was meant to be played. Do it.
 

Calamari41

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,097
A better example would be "a difficult game is like playing a sport at a high level". And pretty much every sport encourages folks to join in at any level with league systems, belts, cups, what have you. And you know - the paralympics are a thing.

Its still an incomplete analogy, because the beginners levels of most sports simply involve playing against other beginners. The closest analogy is golf, where even the most difficult courses have different tees. This is a direct analogy for difficulty levels, but at the same time it only takes care of one aspect of the game. The only way to mitigate designed challenges(bunkers, bends, lakes, etc) is to cheat and just walk past them. But then I'd be asking myself the same kind of questions others are asking about these games: if you're just going to drop the ball on the green, why even pay to play this course?
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
I'm all to make difficulty options in all games available. But I think it's also needed that devs to take it seriously. It's SO clear most devs only balance about 1 mode, and then just turn sliders depending on each mode.

This is why you end up having games with Normal being easy, Hard being easy with bloated HP bars, and Brutal being the same but with unfair HP and damage values. Honestly in most games no mode is satisfactory, because almost all difficulty modes end up being an afterthough.

Same goes the other way of course, it's not as common but there's example of Easy modes still being nasty, like DMC3.
 
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Ghostwalker

Member
Oct 30, 2017
582
In this case the game is inclusive to those who lack in self-discipline. No need to git gud on this.

Not really DS3 is built around self-discipline. The entire combat system revolved around on you the self-control when to only attack when the time is right.

All you need to do is take that skill and apply it to the options menu.

Or we can add an accessibility option just for you that stops you from changing the difficulty for 1 month after selecting it.
 

DeathyBoy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,430
Under my Hela Hela
Its still an incomplete analogy, because the beginners levels of most sports simply involve playing against other beginners. The closest analogy is golf, where even the most difficult courses have different tees. This is a direct analogy for difficulty levels, but at the same time it only takes care of one aspect of the game. The only way to mitigate designed challenges(bunkers, bends, lakes, etc) is to cheat and just walk past them. But then I'd be asking myself the same kind of questions others are asking about these games: if you're just going to drop the ball on the green, why even pay to play this course?

Okay, you realise this is literal gatekeeping, right?

You're literally saying that people who don't play games the way you do, because they are physically and mentally unable to, shouldn't be playing those games. And instead of thinking that maybe, just maybe, those games could accommodate said players with basic accessibility, you post an atrocious analogy that suggests people who enjoy games and sports recreationally rather than competitively aren't doing them properly.

The state of your post, mate. Seriously. The absolute state of it.
 
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Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
Nope. I'd cheat myself and use those options if they are available. I would never have the joy I had with DS3 if an easy mode was a thing. There are plenty options of games nowadays. Just play something else or watch it on YouTube.
That's your problem. We don't have to be punished because you can't control yourself.
I've already paid for the game and am 35h in. So GTFO with this watch it on YouTube or play something else. Seriously. GTFO.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
I have quoted his post so I guess I'm one of the people your post is directed to. First of all I'm all for accessibility, but what I can't defend is using a quick and easy solution like lowering the boss HP and power to avoid having to do the right thing that would be fixing the design shortcoming which cause the difficulty spike. And I think it's a very dangerous message to send to the devs that we're OK with them doing this instead of striving for better design.

This is disingenuous. Accessibility options make things more accessible to a wider variety of people but the vast majority of people are going to pick difficulty they think is adjacent to their playing ability. If I'm playing normal mode and then suddenly there is a huge difficulty spike or a really poor mechanic, I'm going to think its bad regardless of whether I do or do not reduce the difficulty. This is not going to make developers avoid better design. It's such a bullshit conclusion to draw. Reviews will point this out and forums will and general player feedback will.

Second, accessibility should focus on making games enjoyable for everyone, not just beatable. In the heads of the people that made the game there is a very clear vision of what constitutes an enjoyable experience and it's what they are trying to convey with their game. Accessibility options should be directed to bringing this very same experience to everyone, not in changing it into something unrecognizeable. I really feel that would be tricking people. And what's worse, just lowering difficulty is the easiest things developers can do We shouldn't advocate for that, we should ask devs to put in the time and resources to create better ways to bring the experience they intend to everyone who wants to access it.

Why do you think you get to decide this? What is enjoyable to a player is different across the board. You know what a perfect example of this is? Mario Maker. You can submit a level to one streamer and they love it and then the next streamer doesn't at all enjoy it. Some feel the difficulty is too high in your level while some feel it is not enough. Some streamers don't tie completing a level to the fun they have with it while some entirely do find levels they can't beat to be lesser.

Everyone is different. You can't apply your own standards on what is and isn't a legitimate experience.

Honestly why the fuck do people care? Developers design around one difficulty anyway and then they either add in or take away difficulty after the fact. Who cares if they reduce all the enemies health by half and give you 5x the health and damage? You're going to rate a game based on your experience, why are you so so worried about other people's despite wanting to deny those people options they are asking for?
 

balgajo

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,251
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I assume you get mad when bowling lanes offer bumpers.

No one can ever reply to that statement, because it's impossible. Tell me with a straight face bowling lanes shouldn't have bumpers because it's not the way bowling was meant to be played. Do it.
Not a bowling guy so I don't know how to answer this pal. Never saw something different from default bowling.

That's your problem. We don't have to be punished because you can't control yourself.
I've already paid for the game and am 35h in. So GTFO with this watch it on YouTube or play something else. Seriously. GTFO.
The same GTFO applies to your suggestion imo.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,470
New York
Challenge is relative. Comparing games to books or films is just stupid. The barrier of entry to reading a book is also extremely low, even still books are translated, come in braille, large print and audio formats to decrease that barrier further and provide more manageable and comfortable means for people to experience and to ensure they can at least attempt reading said book in the first place. Even when doing so can sometimes obscure or erase some of the intent of the author and their original work. A person dropping a book because they don't like it or find the language too confusing or uninteresting is entirely different from someone dropping a game because they have hit a wall and after dozens of times cannot perform the task the game requires of them. The former can return and continue whenever they like and can reach the end regardless, the latter cannot continue no matter how much they may want to and might otherwise love and enjoy the game in that very moment.

Understanding a book is an altogether different story. In the cases of people with cognitive impairments, or just those without the knowledge or understanding to fully grasp a works intent and meaning, there are CliffNotes type of summaries available all over that often very pointedly spell out the underlying themes, meanings and interpretations of a written work for people to more easily understand them, whether they even read the original work or not as intended. Plus innumerable unofficial summaries and breakdowns by other individuals and sources like Wikipedia, YouTube and more. Not to mention unless the writer of said work is a complete piece of shit I very much doubt they would object to someone else explaining and breaking down concepts, themes and ideas from their work to someone who for one reason or another could not or did not understand them as long as they didn't butcher it in the attempt.

Challenge is relative. And whether someone can eventually overcome a challenge doesn't mean they'll have the same joy and sense of achievement upon doing so as others might. Robust difficulty options not only help to better ensure that as many people as possible can actually play and complete a game, but allows people to adjust things to experience them at a level of challenge that is enjoyable for them. Disabilities are on a spectrum, no two are exactly alike. Whether that's physical or cognitive. Many people with disabilities are capable of completing many of these games, people love parading around videos like that in these types of threads, but that doesn't mean every single person with a disability finds that enjoyable or something achievable without pain or serious discomfort. Options can change that. Whether it's the ability remap controls, select alternative input types, alter visual aspects or adjust difficulty settings like damage input/output, extended reaction windows, alter game speed, etc, etc, etc can turn what is an achievable but frustrating and painful experience into one that is still challenging, but more manageable and enjoyable.

There is no single solution and even if devs were to try to create an experience for all people, that is impossible. All people are on a spectrum of ability and preferences and it's impossible to create one single experience that is suitable and enjoyable for all of them. Which is why robust options are so critical as it allows the individual to adjust things to both their needs and the most enjoyable experience. No two people are alike. Even if they have the same exact issue preventing them from completing something in a game the solution and option they find more enjoyable may be entirely different. If as a result of their impairment a person cannot react quick enough in a fight to block or parry an attack one person might find it more enjoyable, challenging and rewarding to slow the game down, giving them the ability to react in time to the strikes as intended. While another person with the same issue might instead choose to decrease the damage they receive so while they still struggle to react fast enough to block attacks they are able to survive longer and finish the fight at a normal speed. A developer cannot account for this, only robust options for the player to choose can.

It's unfortunate that we don't have a difficulty setting for empathy, because this shit shouldn't be that hard to understand.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
Its still an incomplete analogy, because the beginners levels of most sports simply involve playing against other beginners. The closest analogy is golf, where even the most difficult courses have different tees. This is a direct analogy for difficulty levels, but at the same time it only takes care of one aspect of the game. The only way to mitigate designed challenges(bunkers, bends, lakes, etc) is to cheat and just walk past them. But then I'd be asking myself the same kind of questions others are asking about these games: if you're just going to drop the ball on the green, why even pay to play this course?

Eh no. Beginners level soccer/football is played on smaller fields with different sized nets. Beginners level basketball is often played on lower than 10ft nets. Even beginner level shotputt is started with lower weighted balls.

Beginner sports are often simplified to allow children for example to play. If you are talking adult leagues, these leagues almost always have rules that deviate from competitive level. NCAA basketball has a 30s shot clock for example.
 
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Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
Not a bowling guy so I don't know how to answer this pal. Never saw something different from default bowling.


The same GTFO applies to your suggestion imo.
It doesn't because the game I am playing has accessibility options that allows me to tailor the experience to my liking and the game is better for it. And as soon as I beat the boss, I put the difficulty where it was. And I'm still playing the game so you're in the wrong here and you can't spin around this. Git gud at self control or GTFO.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
Not a bowling guy so I don't know how to answer this pal. Never saw something different from default bowling.
(rolls eyes) "Basketball hoops shouldn't have adjustable heights for the young because I'll lower it if I can." "Golf shouldn't have various tee distances because I'll just pick the closest one." Hell, why not just walk up to the green and drop the ball there? No one is stopping you. The option is available.

You're a gatekeeping jerk, in my opinion. You, and so many other opinions in this thread, are outright embarrassing. A bunch of peacocking fools feeling threatened that others might invade their manicured space. I'm glad neither myself nor very many developers I know feel similarly.
 

Calamari41

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,097
Okay, you realise this is literal gatekeeping, right?

You're literally saying that people who don't play games the way you do, because they are physically and mentally unable to, shouldn't be playing those games. And instead of thinking that maybe, just maybe, those games could accommodate said players with basic accessibility, you post an atrocious analogy that suggests people who enjoy games and sports recreationally rather than competitively aren't doing them properly.

The state of your post, mate. Seriously. The absolute state of it.

What in the world are you talking about? I described the way golf courses operate and stated that it's not worth paying hundreds of dollars to play a course that's out of your league if you're just going to drop the ball on the green. Not because you shouldn't be allowed to, but because it's not worth the money. People cut corners all the time in golf, I never said there's a problem with it. I'm actually using it as an analogy in favor of difficulty levels.

Take a chill pill, my friend. There's a difference between gatekeeping and telling a buddy that it's not worth it for them to play a certain incredibly difficult golf course that's out of their league.
 

Big-E

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,169
There is one thing I don't really get from the people saying accessibility options mess with the artistic vision of the developers. The games that are being discussed here are not some weird single developer game that is a pure art piece. They are usually large games made with 100s of people and who have publishers whose only purpose is to seek money. They are making a product that is sold to people and people decide whether or not they want to pay money for it. We don't accept jank from a game as artistic vision. Not every aspect of the game is made for pure artistic direction. The presence of accessibility options being detrimental according to some I just don't buy.

Accessibility options are something where large to medium scale publishers should easily be able to implement and hell, even small time developers. Games are ultimately a product. Games can be art as well, but it is still something that is sold and customers can impact what is and isn't included in a game.

To people who also say that developers don't have the time to this, well maybe they should make the time? There are plenty of aspects of game development that are time wastes in terms of detracting from "artistic vision" but they still need to get done. ESRB certification, getting through Sony/MS/Nintendo certification are all processes that take away time away from artistic vision but they are important to go through in order to make sure the customer experience is satisfactory. Making sure a game is accessible is also just as worthy.
 

Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,541
I'm all to make difficulty options in all games available. But I think it's also needed that devs to take it seriously. It's SO clear most devs only balance about 1 mode, and then just turn sliders depending on each mode.

This is why you end up having games with Normal being easy, Hard being easy with bloated HP bars, and Brutal being the same but with unfair HP and damage values. Honestly in most games no mode is satisfactory, because almost all difficulty modes end up being an afterthough.

Same goes the other way of course, it's not as common but there's example of Easy modes still being nasty, like DMC3.
Yeah that's a problem with difficulty settings and something devs need to adjust to. Sliders can be a bit much and they need to fix that along with having more differences between the difficulty settings.
 
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Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
There is one thing I don't really get from the people saying accessibility options mess with the artistic vision of the developers. The games that are being discussed here are not some weird single developer game that is a pure art piece. They are usually large games made with 100s of people and who have publishers whose only purpose is to seek money. They are making a product that is sold to people and people decide whether or not they want to pay money for it. We don't accept jank from a game as artistic vision. Not every aspect of the game is made for pure artistic direction. The presence of accessibility options being detrimental according to some I just don't buy.

Accessibility options are something where large to medium scale publishers should easily be able to implement and hell, even small time developers. Games are ultimately a product. Games can be art as well, but it is still something that is sold and customers can impact what is and isn't included in a game.

To people who also say that developers don't have the time to this, well maybe they should make the time? There are plenty of aspects of game development that are time wastes in terms of detracting from "artistic vision" but they still need to get done. ESRB certification, getting through Sony/MS/Nintendo certification are all processes that take away time away from artistic vision but they are important to go through in order to make sure the customer experience is satisfactory. Making sure a game is accessible is also just as worthy.
Developer's vision is just a hypocritical excuse.
You see these same people complaining about easy games, chromatic aberration, motion blur, depth of field and 30fps.
All of those above can be seen as developers vision but these people dogpile on devs that make games this way. You never see these people saying that those are developer's vision.
 

Deleted member 5334

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,815
I honestly think every game should have a Hard setting as well!

100% here.

Honestly, the way Tales of handles it is really nice and it's been pretty consistent since at LEAST Tales of Eternia, where you can change difficulty at any point and time in the game. Sometimes the harder difficulties are locked either after you beat the game, or after playing so many levels on one particular difficulty, but the series has gotten better about those options being available from the get go (provided I'm not misremembering it) later on.

Thinking on it, I almost wish the grade shop stuff was accessible immediately and without restrictions, since there's already a blue print of options in there for accessibility. Plus, I cannot tell you how difficult Grade farming in some games can be.
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,716
Developer's vision is just a hypocritical excuse.
You see these same people complaining about easy games, chromatic aberration, motion blur, depth of field and 30fps.
All of those above can be seen as developers vision but these people dogpile on devs that make games this way. You never see these people saying that those are developer's vision.
I mean if the dev legit wanted 30fps and not for the reason that the console cant run higher than that at the visuals they wanted to do consistently and like legit wanted 30 fps.... Id just not buy the game and support something that absurd :P
 

balgajo

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,251
That's your problem. We don't have to be punished because you can't control yourself.
I've already paid for the game and am 35h in. So GTFO with this watch it on YouTube or play something else. Seriously. GTFO.
The same GTFO applies to your suggestion.
(rolls eyes) "Basketball hoops shouldn't have adjustable heights for the young because I'll lower it if I can." "Golf shouldn't have various tee distances because I'll just pick the closest one." Hell, why not just walk up to the green and drop the ball there? No one is stopping you. The option is available.

You're a gatekeeping jerk, in my opinion. You, and so many other opinions in this thread, are outright embarrassing. A bunch of peacocking fools feeling threatened that others might invade their manicured space. I'm glad neither myself nor very many developers I know feel similarly.
If by gatekeeping you mean someone that believes that not every experience is for everyone I'm glad I'm one.
Though I'm not even fan of very difficult games. I had a great experience with DS3 sometime ago but tbh I feel that I don't want to play a DS game never again as I got really stressed to finish the game. But I believe them existing is a good thing.
Also, to be clear, I'm all for assist mode with a description for what kind of disabilities that mode targets.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
17,973
I don't relate to the OP at all. Video games present a specific set of objectives and obstacles for me to complete. Overcoming them is the entire point.

Also the boldness of saying a boss you can't beat is badly designed is really offputting and bizarre. As is accusing an increase in difficulty being "bad game designs." It sounds like you're saying if game progression is not spoon fed to you then the game is a bad. Throwing game designers and playtesters under the bus because you can't beat a boss reads like trolling. It's very weird.

If someone plays their games like this then that's fine, but I don't think that qualifies someone to be making value judgments on game design and game quality as a result. Cheats and modifiers can make a game a lot of fun (Tony Hawk and GoldenEye come to mind). I also replay games on easy with modifiers to get trophies (hello TLoU Pt II). But the notion that games are bad because they are not easy is alienating to me.

Difficulty spikes, obtuseness of solutions, etc. have come from even the very best game designers. This has been the case for decades now. We just had Amy Hennig discuss this very thing over the past few weeks, specifically about a game she designed ten years ago.

So what makes people unqualified to discuss this facet of gaming?

On a disheartening note, I'm trying to figure out which part of this post is "love each other" or "die trying?"

You were one of the original beating hearts of this forum. I held on to your forum-founding, inspiring posts from the start. I still do. This reductive post, and others like it in this thread, are a long way from that.

Between this, and seeing an admin in the constructive thread call for people who are fighting for respect in community representation here, to keep quiet and let staff handle things - when that admin got to be an admin from being so strong in word and not keeping quiet about representation and not being satisfied with the way staff were handle things - it's leaving me feeling especially disappointed these days.
 

Deleted member 51789

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 9, 2019
3,705
The same GTFO applies to your sugg
If by gatekeeping you mean someone that believes that not every experience is for everyone I'm glad I'm one.
Though I'm not even fan of very difficult games. I had a great experience with DS3 sometime ago but tbh I feel that I don't want to play a DS game never again as I got really stressed to finish the game. But I believe them existing is a good thing.
Also, to be clear, I'm all for assist mode with a description for what kind of disabilities that mode targets.
The idea that not every game is for everyone should be based around taste, not accessibility. Otherwise you're just gatekeeping.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,051
The idea of wanting a hard challenge to test yourself against while also admitting you can't resist the temptation of choosing a lower difficulty if it's there is hilarious to me.
 
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Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
I don't relate to the OP at all. Video games present a specific set of objectives and obstacles for me to complete. Overcoming them is the entire point.

Also the boldness of saying a boss you can't beat is badly designed is really offputting and bizarre. As is accusing an increase in difficulty being "bad game designs." It sounds like you're saying if game progression is not spoon fed to you then the game is a bad. Throwing game designers and playtesters under the bus because you can't beat a boss reads like trolling. It's very weird.

If someone plays their games like this then that's fine, but I don't think that qualifies someone to be making value judgments on game design and game quality as a result. Cheats and modifiers can make a game a lot of fun (Tony Hawk and GoldenEye come to mind). I also replay games on easy with modifiers to get trophies (hello TLoU Pt II). But the notion that games are bad because they are not easy is alienating to me.
I paid for the game, I'm allowed to criticize it.
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,716
The idea of wanting a hard challenge to test yourself against while also admitting you can't resist the temptation of choosing a lower difficulty if it's there is hilarious to me.
The best way Ive seen games handle this is if you play on the hardest setting you are locked in it and anything bellow that you are able to slide down or up
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
I disagree with the OP that a difficulty spike is bad game design in iteself. Something like the Baroth in Monster Hunter Tri is basically a skill check. It ramps up the difficulty and from there on out you will face monsters in that range of difficulty. By the time you play content after it may feel like it was a spike but it's more likely that you improved and that's why you didn't notice it. It's like this for many games.

Where I agree with opening is that assist modes and lower difficulties are great to let people get over a hump if it isn't enjoyable. Like worry about yourself people. Are you going to play the game on easy? No, then why the fuck does it matter if it exists?
 

joeblow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,928
Laker Nation
Wow this is a terrible take. So people shouldn't complain at all about products because creator's vision? That's terrible in a lot of levels.
I mentioned a bajillion times in this thread that not only do I not have an issue with people complaining about a game's difficulty, it's also true that I myself have complained plenty of times (and will continue to do so whenever I see fit to do so).

Feel free to review my comments here to understand what I am actually disagreeing with.
 

rasu

Member
Dec 22, 2017
675
Absolutely. more options and more choices are always welcomed. options only "take away" from an experience for people who are predisposed to seeking the path of least resistance and those people should not be catered to at the detriment of those with disabilities. Having this discussion often, and loudly, is a positive as I feel most people will agree that accessibility options are only ever positive... if they could wrap their heads around the concept and have a little empathy. Keep fighting the good fight and advocate for accessibility.
 

Kyubajin

Member
Feb 22, 2019
1,095
Whenever the topic of difficulty comes about I think about my personal experiences and still come to the conclusion that, although options are nice and everyone enjoy different things, not all games should cater to everyone. Specially games like FromSoftware's where the overcoming of said difficulty is an integral part of the experience.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
Whenever the topic of difficulty comes about I think about my personal experiences and still come to the conclusion that, although options are nice and everyone enjoy different things, not all games should cater to everyone. Specially games like FromSoftware's where the overcoming of said difficulty is an integral part of the experience.

Integral to the experience of whom though? And what experience even?

Can someone not care about the actual challenge portion of Sekiro and just want to look at and explore all the cool ass designs and lore? Can someone who actually can beat the game not really care for the challenge of it?
 

ZeoVGM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
76,109
Providence, RI
Nope. I'd cheat myself and use those options if they are available. I would never have the joy I had with DS3 if an easy mode was a thing. There are plenty options of games nowadays. Just play something else or watch it on YouTube.

I think there are some valid arguments to be made against the idea that every developer should always put easy modes into their games.

But what you said here isn't one of them. That's simply a lack of self-control.

You can't tell people to "just play something else" immediately after saying that you don't have the self-control to not play an easy mode. Because the easy response to that is, "Just don't play the easy mode."

That's not a good argument at all.
 
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Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
Whenever the topic of difficulty comes about I think about my personal experiences and still come to the conclusion that, although options are nice and everyone enjoy different things, not all games should cater to everyone. Specially games like FromSoftware's where the overcoming of said difficulty is an integral part of the experience.
That is not related to what I was saying. 30h in, you love the game, the game caters to you, suddenly, major roadblock presents itself. You try to overcome it for a few hours, ultimately gives up.
What is better in this scenario: lowering the difficulty or dropping the game altogether?
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
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Oct 25, 2017
13,716
That is not related to what I was saying. 30h in, you love the game, the game caters to you, suddenly, major roadblock presents itself. You try to overcome it for a few hours, ultimately gives up.
What is better in this scenario: lowering the difficulty or dropping the game altogether?
Where is the read a guide option?
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,087
It's cool knowing I could try to beat a hard game but cannot. I think it is interesting there are these ridiculous games out there that require a certain level of skill to beat. I remember trying dark souls after their whole coffin marketing thing and I died a lot. I can see why they marketed it that way. Was enjoyable in a sense that I literally banged my head against a boss wall for so long that I just gave up. I suppose for those games the enjoyment is the difficulty and it wouldn't be known industry wide if it wasn't for how brutal it is. So it really worked for them (but not for me).
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,051
Whenever the topic of difficulty comes about I think about my personal experiences and still come to the conclusion that, although options are nice and everyone enjoy different things, not all games should cater to everyone. Specially games like FromSoftware's where the overcoming of said difficulty is an integral part of the experience.
If you take it as fact that your experience is "the" experience and we pop that at 100%. Playing on easy mode you might consider it 40% right? Get to see the locations and have unlimited Estus or something. See the armours and try the weapons but lose out on the pattern building and tension with bosses and environments. The question is why that 100% for you is so sacred that you would deny others experiencing the 40%? It might not be the same* experience but it's still one they would get to have, and to judge their enjoyment of that for themselves.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
I can understand the appeal of thought that not everything is for everyone but also this whole discussion is a thought experiment to begin with. Games will continue to have easy modes and accessibility options and developers will be able to make games without them so I don't see how anyone is actually arguing that in a scenario where games could be accessible as possible you wouldn't want that. The only person that gives a shit you beat dark souls is you. You're sense of accomplishment is personal lol, why are you so concerned about other people telling you what they want?
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,716
If you take it as fact that your experience is "the" experience and we pop that at 100%. Playing on easy mode you might consider it 40% right? Get to see the locations and have unlimited Estus or something. See the armours and try the weapons but lose out on the pattern building and tension with bosses and environments. The question is why that 100% for you is so sacred that you would deny others experiencing the 40%? It might not be the same* experience but it's still one they would get to have, and to judge their enjoyment of that for themselves.
It's multiple things that annoy people in that subject, it cuts the social aspect of the game down you cant share similar experiences. Hearing stuff like "game was pretty boring I beat it super fast it was easy" Then you make a suggestion to try the harder settings and get met with " why would I do that I dont play games to waste my time and die" from same person.

You have to remember this is a discussion board for typically more dedicated to the medium people so you are going to get those people that want to talk about and share the experience they had and when they sit there and a bunch of people are telling them they wasted their time playing that way "People with lives dont have time for this" its another thing that annoys them and why you see so much bitter back and forth even if they dont admit it.

Personally I dont give a shit, I always suggest people try the hardest settings to push their ability to adapt in various genres and develop creative problem solving or quick thinking reflexes but if people rather face tank shit and mash cool slashy shit more power to them its their game and their time.

I did it and still couldn't overcome it. So, yeah, I still think lowering the difficulty was the better option.
I agree, and honestly PC gaming is where this isnt even an issue you have to depend on devs for. Cheat Engine is a nice tool.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,051
It's multiple things that annoy people in that subject, it cuts the social aspect of the game down you cant share similar experiences. Hearing stuff like "game was pretty boring I beat it super fast it was easy" Then you make a suggestion to try the harder settings and get met with " why would I do that I dont play games to waste my time and die" from same person.

You have to remember this is a discussion board for typically more dedicated to the medium people so you are going to get those people that want to talk about and share the experience they had and when they sit there and a bunch of people are telling them they wasted their time playing that way "People with lives dont have time for this" its another thing that annoys them and why you see so much bitter back and forth even if they dont admit it.

Personally I dont give a shit, I always suggest people try the hardest settings to push their ability to adapt in various genres and develop creative problem solving or quick thinking reflexes but if people rather face tank shit and mash cool slashy shit more power to them its their game and their time.
From games effectively have a difficulty switch at some points anyway though through summons, so I'm not sure why that's acceptable and doesn't cripple the 'integrity' of the challenge, or social elements, over having something more universal?
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,716
From games effectively have a difficulty switch at some points anyway though through summons, so I'm not sure why that's acceptable and doesn't cripple the 'integrity' of the challenge, or social elements, over having something more universal?
Froms "difficulty " switch is almost a completely social experience though, it's other players understanding a boss can be a pain in the ass from their experience and wanting to help others that are stuck.

To where in their eyes just cranking it down and doing it on your own is robbing that interaction away and never joining the consensus that a fight was a struggle.

It's all just social shit people want to fit in and a place to belong and discuss the things they enjoy with like minded people, they feel like that is going to be taken away once the common uniting factor is gone
 

laoni

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,712
I agree, and honestly PC gaming is where this isnt even an issue you have to depend on devs for. Cheat Engine is a nice tool.

Yeah, the sheer flexibility of PC tools to aid in making things work better for your personal needs is pretty much why I've gone full PC/Switch right now (I love me my chill Nintendo rpgs)