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s y

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,430
You mean babysit while they maybe hopefully distract the boss before dying, especially in some of the earlier games.

They're also not in Sekiro and weren't in many Bloodborne bosses before a late patch / dlc.
I remember getting ai assistance from NPCs in sekiro. Particular against one of the big fat drunk guys.

I'm invested in the story sometimes and I want to see how it ends.
Watching the remainder of the cutscenes/story on YouTube is possibly a more efficient use of your time.

I do this for open world games like the Witcher once I inevitably get bored of the bad gameplay and traversal .
 
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Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
I remember getting ai assistance from NPCs in sekiro. Particular against one of the big fat drunk guys.


Watching the remainder of the cutscenes/story on YouTube is possibly a more efficient use of your time.

I do this for open world games like the Witcher once I inevitably get bored of the bad gameplay and traversal .
Because of ONE hard boss for my entire 35h gameplay, 20h of game remaining? Nope, easy mode is better.
 

gabegabe

Member
Jul 5, 2018
2,736
Brazil
I mean, this is just an agree to disagree. People value their time differently. Many would call us weirdos for spending time posting on a niche online video game forum. Are they right and we are wrong? I don't think so. I have a great time grinding and getting better at a game and I don't feel like improving at something is ever time I would consider wasted.

But that's not the point. If you enjoy the grind, go ahead and play like that! Do your thing! The point is that people say things like "if developers spend resources on difficult options it'll ruin the core experience!!!" or something along those lines, and we know that's not true. Would The Last of Us Part 2 be a better game without all of it's accessibility? Or a game like Celeste? Lots of people praised it by it's hard level design, and we know that it didn't hurt the game for having all of it's easy mode and all accessibility options.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
I remember getting ai assistance from NPCs in sekiro. Particular against one of the big fat drunk guys.


Watching the remainder of the cutscenes/story on YouTube is possibly a more efficient use of your time.

I do this for open world games like the Witcher once I inevitably get bored of the bad gameplay and traversal .

Pretty sure that's just one encounter and scripted. He can verily easily die before engaging that mini boss too. They aren't present in anything else.
 
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Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
But that's not the point. If you enjoy the grind, go ahead and play like that! Do your thing! The point is that people say things like "if developers spend resources on difficult options it'll ruin the core experience!!!" or something along those lines, and we know that's not true. Would The Last of Us Part 2 be a better game without all of it's accessibility? Or a game like Celeste? Lots of people praised it by it's hard level design, and we know that it didn't hurt the game for having all of it's easy mode and all accessibility options.
To be honest, if making an easier mode is going to "spend resources" and "ruin the core experience", I think you should really review how your managing the game development.
 

Deleted member 16657

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,198
But that's not the point. If you enjoy the grind, go ahead and play like that! Do your thing! The point is that people say things like "if developers spend resources on difficult options it'll ruin the core experience!!!" or something along those lines, and we know that's not true. Would The Last of Us Part 2 be a better game without all of it's accessibility? Or a game like Celeste? Lots of people praised it by it's hard level design, and we know that it didn't hurt the game for having all of it's easy mode and all accessibility options.

Yeah... I'm not one of those people. Options are good. I was just saying that I appreciate grinding and overcoming difficulty because I think its a unique aspect of gaming. Not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to bypass that grind if they dislike it.
 

Deleted member 1190

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,663
"Git gud"? Git gud my ass. I have a lot going in my life to waste hours upon hours grinding because the developer threw in a badly designed boss in the middle of the game.

This is the part I take issues with.

Yes, options are good. However, its not a bad boss design just because you have trouble beating it. If the overwhelming majority is having issues with it, sure. But if YOU are the one not learning the lessons of the game and getting better, and are instead just mindlessly throwing yourself at it and dying over and over and over, then that's 100% on you and not the game.
 

s y

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,430
Because of ONE hard boss for my entire 35h gameplay, 20h of game remaining? Nope, easy mode is better.
From your OP, you played a game and was thankful that it had an easy mode to help you progress past a boss that was much harder than anything you faced prior.

Cool. Not problem. Easy modes exist in most games.

I'm not sure a game without difficulty options exists which would have you spend 35 hours with relative ease then prompt you with facing a boss on an entirely new level of difficulty unless it's some secret boss where difficulty is the point or the final boss in which case, watching the ending is not robbing you of 20 hours of potential gameplay.

I'm certainly not against difficulty and accessibility options but outside of your OP I'm a little confused lol
 

s y

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,430
Pretty sure that's just one encounter and scripted. He can verily easily die before engaging that mini boss too. They aren't present in anything else.
I haven't played it in a long time so I'll take your word for it. I just remember using him to kill the boss because he was kicking my ass without him.
 
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Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
From your OP, you played a game and was thankful that it had an easy mode to help you progress past a boss that was much harder than anything you faced prior.

Cool. Not problem. Easy modes exist in most games.

I'm not sure a game without difficulty options exists which would have you spend 35 hours with relative ease then prompt you with facing a boss on an entirely new level of difficulty unless it's some secret boss where difficulty is the point or the final boss in which case, watching the ending is not robbing you of hours of potential gameplay.

I'm certainly not against difficulty and accessibility options but outside of your OP I'm a little confused lol
Have you never heard of Seymour Flux? Classic case of it.
Final Fantasy X is relatively easy until you get to this boss which is a major roadblock in the game.
 

s y

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,430
Have you never heard of Seymour Flux? Classic case of it.
Final Fantasy X is relatively easy until you get to this boss which is a major roadblock in the game.
Not a fan of FF so nope but if that type of thing is prevalent in the series then I definitely see where you are coming from.
 

Bait02

Member
Jan 5, 2019
645
All "Every game should have" or "Every game should be" arguments are wrong by default.
Any developer should have complete freedom to decide its design goals and to make games as accessibile or challenging as they want.
If the game gets frustrating because difficulty is unbalanced than the problem is bad design, not the lack of assistance.
In any case it should be up to the developer to decide how many options and difficulty settings to implement in the game.
 

m29a

Member
Oct 25, 2017
387
In the past couple years I have enjoyed playing games on the easier settings and checking out the assists. It helps me relax and not think too much which is pretty much the goal when I play.

I don't expect every game to have it... but when a game doesn't, that just means it's clearly not for me.
 

Mukrab

Member
Apr 19, 2020
7,486
Not that options are a bad thing, but this sounds more like advocating for games to not be designed poorly rather than easy/assist modes being jammed into all games.

EDIT: fixed a typo
That was my understanding of the OP aswell. There are frustrating games and there are games where even if you die 10x i know exactly how i could have avoided it and i cant wait to jump tight back in.
 

kiaaa

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,842
I'm a stubborn fuck so I'll fight a boss 40 times if I need to and then feel pretty good about beating them, but there's nothing wrong with easier modes.
 
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Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
All "Every game should have" or "Every game should be" arguments are wrong by default.
Any developer should have complete freedom to decide its design goals and to make games as accessibile or challenging as they want.
If the game gets frustrating because difficulty is unbalanced than the problem is bad design, not the lack of assistance.
In any case it should be up to the developer to decide how many options and difficulty settings to implement in the game.
So are you ok if developers choose games to be 30fps for artistic purpose? 480p?
 

DavidDesu

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,718
Glasgow, Scotland
Agree totally. Games should be made for accessibility of all types, whether it be to assist in disabled players accessing content and people who just don't have the skills either. Let everyone enjoy. What's the problem, we're playing computer games, it's entertainment. Anyone trying to claim it is more than that (in terms of gameplay) is just a bit of a snob.
 

NPTinker

Member
May 2, 2020
1,025
That's why I skip every fromsoft game until there is an easy mode, shit is a time sink and I don't get the pride of beating a game
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
I assume anyone who is against difficulty options being in games because it would "ruin the experience for them" gets very mad when bowling lanes offer bumpers
 

Tathanen

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,031
Assist mode in Mario Odyssey was the only reason my 4-year-old was able to play the game, the ability to heal when standing still, infinite air underwater, the arrows pointing in directions, all stuff that "big boy gamers" would laugh at, but was absolutely instrumental to her being able to progress and have a good time. Give me this shit in everything, thanks.
 

Alexhex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,881
Canada
I don't want to be nitpicky because I really do agree we need more easy and especially assist modes but I'm sorry, difficulty spikes are not design missteps. Game difficulty usually has ebbs and flows to create moments of stress, empowerment or decompression, and narrative emphasis. I really think that totally smooth difficulty curves are quite boring tbh
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
Options are always good. I still think Celeste is the benchmark for that kind of thing and more games should do the same (not to say it can't be improved upon).
 

oofouchugh

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,966
Night City
I find really disappointing how many people straight up refuse to be ok with difficulty as a game mechanic itself. Sometimes you need things to be difficult as part of the game. Death and failure can be great game mechanics to leverage. The best thing about the modern game industry though is you have the ability to play something else if you're not interested in that. Video games aren't a one size fits all thing.
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
Maybe I've been playing games too long but there have been like maybe two or three modern games that I found to be genuinely grueling from start to finish. The rest just take some observation and patience as you learn the systems and mechanics.

"Hard" games can actually be easier sometimes because they force you to learn early instead of letting you scrub your way through the game only to hit a brick wall later.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
I find really disappointing how many people straight up refuse to be ok with difficulty as a game mechanic itself. Sometimes you need things to be difficult as part of the game. Death and failure can be great game mechanics to leverage. The best thing about the modern game industry though is you have the ability to play something else if you're not interested in that. Video games aren't a one size fits all thing.
"I find it really disappointing that some people straight up refuse to be okay with bowling difficulty being part of the game. Sometimes bowling needs to be hard. Rolling in the gutter can be a great game mechanic to leverage. The best thing about sports is you have the ability to go do something else if you're not interested in gutter balls. Sports aren't a one size fits all thing."

Or I dunno let people put bumpers up if they want bro

Doesn't affect you
 

TechnicPuppet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,809
Why do none of the "developers vision" who hate the idea of an easy mode that will not affect them never have an issue with New Game + modes? They are usually tacked on later and completely mess with the difficulty and way the game posts in multiple ways?

You also never hear Complaints about harder modes in general.
 

Bait02

Member
Jan 5, 2019
645
So are you ok if developers choose games to be 30fps for artistic purpose? 480p?
Sure, since if I'm not interested to play a game that runs at 480p@30fps I would still have the choice to play any other game I see as suitable to my taste. If I decide to play it anyway I am free to critique it, or to say the game Is crap.
Still, I'm not entitled to decide how the game should be on their behalf.
 

KayonXaikyre

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
I personally just think that its ok to just not play these games. Not every game is going to be for you. Not every game is primarily to have a compelling story or a setting. Some games are designed to be difficult, make you feel helpless, make you feel scared, or hopeless. Outside of giving options to map controls however you want, color blind, or things of that nature I don't think it needs to be a requirement that everyone has to be able to complete the game. I guess it's because the arcade era I grew up in was all about winning and losing. Some games you just didn't beat and beating it was kind of an alluring thing. That kind of game might not be appealing for everyone, but I think theres people out there that appreciate that kind of game for what its trying to do. Its sometimes hard to find games sometimes that give you that exhilaration, tension, and rush, but some games manage to do this well.

That said difficulty is relative too, there is no hard or easy mode that's going to be easy enough or hard enough for everyone, so instead of going for that they just try their best to craft something that they feel is fair based upon the tools your given and teach you through the progression of the world. Imagine if someone dropped it to the lowest difficulty and still got their ass kicked. What then? You can just throw in a million options to custom tune the game as another way around it, but that takes time and money and not every company can afford or even want to do that because at that point the game is completely different from what they imagined it to be (unless that was the goal in the first place which obviously it isn't in this case since we're talking about games that are too hard). Some companies want a single vision for everyone and everyone talks about that version that they have.

Similarly, I don't think all games need to be harder either. Like I don't want animal crossing to be more difficult or games that are relaxing visual novels to suddenly have fail conditions and quick time events. However the developer wants to put out their vision with the time and budget they have I want all of their effort poured into making that version of the experience. If once its finished and they want to add that later, that's fine, but I don't think everyone needs to play every game and I don't think every game is for every person. If you don't like playing a boss 50 times and the game thinks you should, its okay to step away and play another game that caters to you more.

Just my opinion.
 

Tomo815

Banned
Jul 19, 2019
1,534
So you're playing the game, it's challenging enough, you die a bit, you make some mistakes and it's ok, that's how games are.
And then you get at the boss. You fight the boss, 3, 4, 5, 20, 30 times.
You get frustrated, you finally win after 40 tries.
Do you feel good about you? Well, I don't. I usually feel bad about how I wasted my time because the boss wasn't balanced enough to match the difficulty from the previous area. Difficulty spikes are bad design.
That's why easy/assist mode on the fly is so good, you can make the badly designed boss easy or manageable if you want to. And then you can go back to the original difficulty. So good.
"Git gud"? Git gud my ass. I have a lot going in my life to waste hours upon hours grinding because the developer threw in a badly designed boss in the middle of the game.

If this is about Dark Souls,

It helps if you die 3-4 times to the same boss to stop and evaluate your strategy. Like, are you doing good damage? Bosses often are weak to a particular element, like fire is weak to magic or poison is weak to fire. Also are you taking too much damage? Check your defence/magic defence stats toward a particular type of damage.

Its not always a matter of dexterity. Getting good means also understanding a game's system and what is expected of you as a player.
 
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Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
Sure, since if I'm not interested to play a game that runs at 480p@30fps I would still have the choice to play any other game I see as suitable to my taste. If I decide to play it anyway I am free to critique it, or to say the game Is crap.
Still, I'm not entitled to decide how the game should be on their behalf.
Yeah, I'm going to pretend you're ok with this.
 
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Swift_Gamer

Swift_Gamer

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
3,701
Rio de Janeiro
If this is about Dark Souls,

It helps if you die 3-4 times to the same boss to stop and evaluate your strategy. Like, are you doing good damage? Bosses often are weak to a particular element, like fire is weak to magic or poison is weak to fire. Also are you taking too much damage? Check your defence/magic defence stats toward a particular type of damage.

Its not always a matter of dexterity. Getting good means also understanding a game's system and what is expected of you as a player.
It's not about dark souls. I don't go to dark souls expecting to not hit a roadblock.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,015
Yeah, totally.

It's weird seeing people so up-in-arms about this lol. Like, even with From's games, they already have difficulty levels. The only difference is instead of selecting them at the title menu, the player if funneled through them each time they beat the game. From could easily add a new difficulty level, but this time a lower one, that the player could select from the menu. Enemies would have maybe 60% of their regular health, player actions would cost 50% stamina, maybe some mobs could be removed... and that's it. That would be enough to be a good "easy mode". And when the player beats this "New Game -" (if we could call it that), they would be transitioned to a regular new game.
 

EggmaniMN

Banned
May 17, 2020
3,465
The industry leader for how to handle difficulty spikes in games is From Software and Souls games. Should you ever struggle with those games, you can very easily summon another player and make the boss fight or level easy. This approach has many advantages compared to traditional easy modes:

1. The developers don't have to spend valuable resources developing other difficulty modes and can concentrate on the main experience. This makes for a more polished product and reduces the workload for the developers, which is very important considering how so many developers these days burn out due to crunch.

2. Co-op is less condescending than a traditional easy mode. You're playing exactly the same game as everyone else, just doing so while engaging in jolly cooperation. You still get the same sense of accomplishment after overcoming the challenge as someone who fights the boss on their lonesome

3. It makes the online mode more populated, which benefits EVERYONE playing the game.

4. Playing with others is a fun experience in and of itself

As the debate about difficulty in games rages on, I hope more developers consider following this example set by the industry leader, From Software.

I've been over this before but no, no they are not. They are one of the worst. Telling me to play coop instead is insulting, telling me to use an AI companion is worse. Making those AI companions be hidden behind side quests makes them useless. That first point is terrible and frames accessibility like some dreaded thing they don't have to "waste" time on.

The way you're framing this is just patronizing shit.
 

metalgear89

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,018
The day from software adds an easy mode to a souls game is the day you will hear the screams of thousands of crybabymanchildren. Maybe sony do it with demon souls or a possible bloodborne 2? Seen as they are very very keen on accessibility :)
 

Tawpgun

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,861
I like the idea of it triggering after a lot of failed attempts and then an option to enable easy mode (disables achievements + other rewards where applicable).

My fear is a lot of people will take the easy way out versus sticking to it. I can even see myself doing this "Ugh, I'm good at this game but this boss is bullshit, let me skip it to continue the story."
 

laoni

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,711
Some posts in this thread aren't realising or are ignoring difficulty is something that is different for each individual. It's not a set 'You Must Git This Gud To Ride' mark, even among the able bodied. One person's crushingly hard will be very easy to another will be well crafted to another. A single difficulty inherently will not hit the same experience for all, and so without options, you can't truly leverage difficulty as a theme of the game.

Options are never bad, and they should go in both directions making things harder and easier. That way difficulty can still be leveraged in games where that's felt too be important, because for everyone that mark is different. I especially like the implication that disabled people just want to breeze through whatever. Funnily enough, we like challenge too! Just our levels are different than yours. And making gaming accessible to the disabled means more than just putting in colourblind modes, subtitles, larger text, etc. as well... Disability is a lot bigger of an umbrella term than just visual impaired or audio impaired.

Also, artistic vision rooted in ableism is still ableism.
 

Bait02

Member
Jan 5, 2019
645
Yeah, I'm going to pretend you're ok with this.
Why not? Of course I'm not looking into a game that runs 480@30fps in 2020, but I'm not obliged to play any game if I don't want to.
Also...It doesn't even sound that crazy as a propositon considering some indie delevopers still release games for past conosoles from time to time.
 
Apr 3, 2020
2,638
Losing a few times is ok. Losing 20/30/40 times is not ok

You're pushing your mind too hard like this. After all these many tries, you're not learing anything because your mind is exhausted. Take a break from the game, play other games, or do something else, then return to the game when you feel want to.

It is just like studying for a test, when you feel your mind doesn't process the information and not making any progress, you just take a break do something else, take walk, etc.

Agreed. Glad that there are tougher difficulty levels for those that have the time or inclination to deal with that sort of thing, but for me personally, I'm glad that easier difficulties are an option, it's the reason I'm able to still make it through so many games.

I like the challenging games. What I find it funny I've never liked the higher difficulty modes in games, they always badly designed (higher damage) and treat you like in your 2nd walkthrough.
 

Ser_Luke

Self-requested ban
Banned
Apr 30, 2019
822
Yeah I have ADHD and autism spectrum disorder so I've had bad hand eye coordination/motor skill issues all my life I always play on easy mode if I can. Stuff like the slide on rails in Mega Man 8 drove me crazy and made me almost want to quit the game.
 

fontguy

Avenger
Oct 8, 2018
16,150
I agree that these options are good and more games should have them, but I feel fucking great overcoming a hard boss. You have no idea the fist pumps I unleashed after defeating The One Reborn.
 

Roxas

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
3,550
Buenos Aires, Argentina
I think having options is really great, I work a lot nowadays and I basically get no time to play lately, so when the game gets too hard, I like having the option to turn it down and keep going.