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Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Another good piece from them detailing the asymmetry in how 2016 voters have responded to Trump, how that asymmetry played out in 2018, and why it poses a major structural issue for Trump and the GOP in 2020.

www.voterstudygroup.org

Early Signs Suggest Trouble for Trump in 2020 Election

Robert Griffin's analysis of the President favorability ratings suggests that Trump is likely to have a difficult challenge in his bid for re-election.

With the 2020 Democratic primary season well under way, many political analysts — and not a few Democrats — have wondered which of the party's candidates is most electable. But there's another candidate with an electability challenge: President Donald Trump. His personal favorability and job approval numbers are relatively low, the 2018 midterm revealed notable divisions within the coalition that elected him, and those divisions are already apparent in his bid for re-election.

Using data from the 2019 VOTER Survey (Views of the Electorate Research Survey), I examine Trump's favorability, how groups voted in 2018, and what some of this very early data can tell us about 2020. I draw on the responses of 6,779 Americans, most of whom had been surveyed previously as part of a longitudinal panel. This panel provides a unique window into how the same Americans voted over time — in 2012, 2016, and 2018 — and thus on how they may vote in 2020.

Three findings stand out. First, Trump has never been particularly popular compared to other presidential candidates or presidents. While he is famously focused on his "base," we find that only 37 percent of Americans have consistently held a favorable opinion of the president. Second, defections among Republican-leaning voting groups hurt Republicans in the 2018 midterm election. Notably, more than one-third (37 percent) of Obama-Trump voters reported voting for a Democratic candidate in 2018. Finally, the same Republican-leaning groups that defected in 2018 are also those who appear likeliest to vote for a Democratic presidential candidate in 2020.

A caveat on the charts: they don't maintain the ordering of all 6 subgroups in all 3 graphs so be careful when making comparisons.

trump2020_fig1_e4aabc39aab12644609701bbacdff252.png

trump2020_fig2_e4aabc39aab12644609701bbacdff252.png

trump2020_fig3_e4aabc39aab12644609701bbacdff252.png
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
I don't they will defect, I think a not ignorable amount of them will stay home. I don't think the effect tarriffs and fuckery has had on farmers have been researched enough
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
A caveat on the charts: they don't maintain the ordering of all 6 subgroups in all 3 graphs so be careful when making comparisons.
good LORD those charts are terrible

even when you finally parse the information they're conveying, it's useless without any scale sense of how big each bloc is
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
Yeah but this emperical data is meaningless compared to my gut feeling which tells me Trump is a shoe in to win.
 
OP
OP
Kirblar

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
good LORD those charts are terrible

even when you finally parse the information they're conveying, it's useless without any scale sense of how big each bloc is
The info you want on that front is here- https://www.voterstudygroup.org/publication/political-divisions-in-2016-and-beyond

The defections in the O->T group are a massive issue because of how slim the 2016 margins were for his election. He's currently underwater with non-college white women, a group he won by over 60% in 2016.
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
Turns out that when your victory relied entirely on squeaking by in 3 states by a combined 100k votes being an unpopular detestable piece of shit will really hurt your chances to win again.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
Turns out that when your victory relied entirely on squeaking by in 3 states by a combined 100k votes being an unpopular detestable piece of shit will really hurt your chances to win again.
I am legit trying to think of what he has accomplished since the tax bill. It's not even hyperbole to say he has done more for Russia than for folks at home
 

TrojanAg

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,538
When you only focus on appeasing your base thinking that that was the only reason you won in 2016, you're pretty much in trouble.
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,377
GOP is going to have to sabotage democracy to stay in power.

So then, expect more of their tactics.
 

Blue Skies

Banned
Mar 27, 2019
9,224
When you only focus on appeasing your base thinking that that was the only reason you won in 2016, you're pretty much in trouble.
This this this

yea his base is super strong
The strongest base

but it's also smaller than it used to be, and what matters at the end is quantity not quality.
And when I say quality I mean strength of supporters
 
Oct 25, 2017
34,775
I am legit trying to think of what he has accomplished since the tax bill. It's not even hyperbole to say he has done more for Russia than for folks at home

Taxes and Judges. That's it. The former for his rich "friends", the latter to appease the religious nutjobs hoping that abortion is outlawed.
All his executive orders will be overturned the minute a Democrat takes office.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
Taxes and Judges. That's it. The former for his rich "friends", the latter to appease the religious nutjobs hoping that abortion is outlawed.
All his executive orders will be overturned the minute a Democrat takes office.
Yeah but that shit ain't hot for the average GOPer
 

qaopjlll

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,788
The only thing that really matters is whether Warren can make up the narrow margins Clinton lost by in PA, Wisconsin and Michigan... she'll almost certainly win the election if she takes all three and is very likely to lose if she doesn't.
 

foxuzamaki

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,550
I looked at that graph immideately thinking I got it, then read over it again and felt super confused, then I think i got it again but I'm not sure
 

Speely

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,995
GOP is going to have to sabotage democracy to stay in power.

So then, expect more of their tactics.
No matter what, people can't get complacent.

Yep. Don't let how you feel people SHOULD use their reasoning ability affect your perspective on how they DO use it. Animal cunning (ala GOP flailing) seems crude to many, but when there are plenty of voters who view it as relatable, traditional, racist, wholesome goodness, that kind of tribal absolutism becomes a very dangerous weapon that only targets people with little to no power.
 

night814

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,035
Pennsylvania
I am legit trying to think of what he has accomplished since the tax bill. It's not even hyperbole to say he has done more for Russia than for folks at home
I think about this all the time Slayven, his reelection is entirely hinging on a tax cut that almost all of the voting base was either not affected at all or adversely affected by. The rest has either been posturing or Trump's version of making deals which basically entails destroying them and then crying foul. Independents are not going to be interested in 4 more years of nonsense me thinks and only the racist right will side with Trump.
 

Speely

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,995
only the racist right will side with Trump.

This is not only a disturbingly-large swath of the US, but ostensibly the LAST gasp they have before the libtard snowflake genderless dystopians take over. This is their time, period.

A lot of takes have been taken about this administration and the last 2 years, but I haven't seen a lot addressing that this is the GOP's final form of fuckery. This is absolutely where racist, white America fires on all pistons, because they have pinned it all on Trump. They NEED this, and if they get it, we are done. It's a dumb gamble, but they still have chips to raise with.

Oh, it's also when they try to shock test our checks and balances and might win.
 

Candescence

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,253
Yeah, I can't figure out what the fuck those charts are supposed to mean, either.

But it does seem like Trump is the last hope for the GOP for long-term electoral viability - let's be honest, is there anyone left in the GOP stable aside from maybe Romney who could actually win an election? There's a reason why Trump rolled everyone else in the 2016 primaries, his competition was pretty bleh, the best they had was Ted Cruz and Jeb.
 

Deleted member 10551

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,031
I don't they will defect, I think a not ignorable amount of them will stay home. I don't think the effect tarriffs and fuckery has had on farmers have been researched enough

It might be better if they stay home, winning the downballot is important , and those folks might split their tickets and vote Republican downballot.
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,103
Wow those charts. What are they even thinking they're conveying? Using the same percentage scale for groups of vastly different size is nonsense.

The weird thing is, the data is fine once you strip away all the pretend-context that they have tried to wrap around it. Here's the headline figures:

RcqplLP.png


LeSoSr0.png
 

SpaceCrystal

Banned
Apr 1, 2019
7,714
I am legit trying to think of what he has accomplished since the tax bill. It's not even hyperbole to say he has done more for Russia than for folks at home

Plus he's killing the economy in certain states, & hurting people such as farmers.

When you only focus on appeasing your base thinking that that was the only reason you won in 2016, you're pretty much in trouble.

It's arrogance.

No matter what, people can't get complacent.

Oh, we all know that. I doubt that a lot of people will make the same mistake as they've made back in 2016.

A lot of people want Trump gone.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Wow those charts. What are they even thinking they're conveying? Using the same percentage scale for groups of vastly different size is nonsense.

The weird thing is, the data is fine once you strip away all the pretend-context that they have tried to wrap around it. Here's the headline figures:

RcqplLP.png


LeSoSr0.png

So you took an analysis of voter behavior divided into importantly distinct cohorts and turned it into...a poll top line. Good job.
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,103
What's up with those charts?
How do they make sense
They're stupid.

What they're trying to do is show how Trump is doing with different groups, with those groups being based on voting patterns.

So the first part of the first chart shows Trump's favourability with people with voted for Obama in 2012 and then Clinton in 2016 (in other words, consistent Democrats). Unsurprisingly, they're heavily unfavourable, by [mystery]%.

The next part shows people who voted Romney in 2012 but Clinton in 2016 - perhaps they're wavering voters, or perhaps they're former Republicans who became Democrats, or maybe even loyal Republicans who just hate Trump. This group is definitely way smaller than the first group but we don't know the sizes and it's just presented as an equal.

The other groups all work similarly, although there's two groups that are missing - they have Obama-Other and Romney-Other, they should also have Other-Trump and Other-Clinton. Those would be tiny groups but probably not much smaller than Obama-Other or Obama-Trump.
 

Jakke_Koala

Member
Sep 28, 2018
1,173
They're stupid.

What they're trying to do is show how Trump is doing with different groups, with those groups being based on voting patterns.

So the first part of the first chart shows Trump's favourability with people with voted for Obama in 2012 and then Clinton in 2016 (in other words, consistent Democrats). Unsurprisingly, they're heavily unfavourable, by [mystery]%.

The next part shows people who voted Romney in 2012 but Clinton in 2016 - perhaps they're wavering voters, or perhaps they're former Republicans who became Democrats, or maybe even loyal Republicans who just hate Trump. This group is definitely way smaller than the first group but we don't know the sizes and it's just presented as an equal.

The other groups all work similarly, although there's two groups that are missing - they have Obama-Other and Romney-Other, they should also have Other-Trump and Other-Clinton. Those would be tiny groups but probably not much smaller than Obama-Other or Obama-Trump.
Wow thanks for clearing that up.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
I guess you think the groupings on the chart are really worthwhile and well-presented?

Because I sure don't.

I have to say I found the graphs pretty easy to understand, although clearly I was the exception and so would not claim the graphs were well-designed. I do think it is true that the graphs don't give any sense of the relative sizes of the cohorts, although I don't actually think varying the bar area and/or vertical size would help people understand it more clearly.

In terms of being worthwhile, uh, of course they are. If you don't think it is worthwhile to analyze voter behavior in the context of previous votes I can't really imagine what you would find worthwhile. It seems like literally the most important piece of data we could get!

But regardless of your view on that it should be pretty obvious that literally eliminating the entire study by reducing it to a poll and taking out every piece of data is not a way to understand the data. It's a way to discard the data.

What's up with those charts?
How do they make sense

The goal of the study is to look at six separate cohorts, based on who they voted for in 2012 (Obama or Romney) and what they did in 2016 (Hillary, Trump, or sit out). It should be fairly clear that if Hillary just won every vote Obama won in 2012 and lost every vote Obama lost in 2012 she would have won. So the change in voter behavior is quite relevant to understanding the election.

Obama-Clinton and Romney-Trump voters are fairly basic and presented mainly as contrast -- these are reliable voters on either side. Obama-Other and Obama-Trump voters are the fabled lost votes that Hillary needed in places like Michigan. Romney-Other and Romney-Clinton, by contrast, are the hypothetical NeverTrump voters whom Hillary worked hard to sever from the GOP.

As you can see, Obama-Other voters look very similar to Obama-Clinton voters. These voters aren't pleased with what their lassitude has wrought. They voted in 2018 for the Democrats and they mostly intend to vote for the Democrat in 2020. So we can understand these voters probably as fairly usual Democratic voters who had a particular distaste for Hillary and who would like to return to the fold.

Romney-Clinton voters, who voted GOP but then refused to vote for Trump, have an even higher disapproval rating of Trump, and in 2018 extended that distaste to voting out Republicans. These are the voters who flipped Orange County, and they intend to vote again against Trump in 2020. Trump has transformed this bloc of voters into a bloc that looks nearly identical to reliable Democrats.

On the other side, Romney-Other voters, the McMullin contingent, are more confused. They do not much like Trump, but they voted GOP in 2018, presumably because they love the party but not the man. They are fairly evenly split on Trump in 2020 -- they will not reliably return to support him. This is a potential weak spot for Trump, who would like to pick them back up.

The last interesting group is Obama-Trump. In general, as Trump voters, these guys are fairly satisfied with Trump. But, as former Democrats, they crossed over in 2018 more than any other cohort, and a sizeable fraction of them intend to return in 2020. A lot of these voters are gone forever, but a significant percentage are wavering.

Overall, as the chart titles suggest, Republican-leaning cohort are simply more torn, and it's not purely hypothetical -- they put action to word in 2018 when we won our House wave. We know they are genuinely willing to vote Democratic. Meanwhile the reliable Democrats are fairly confident that they will turn out against Trump. If these patterns play out as suggested, it's very bad news for Trump.
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,103
But regardless of your view on that it should be pretty obvious that literally eliminating the entire study by reducing it to a poll and taking out every piece of data is not a way to understand the data. It's a way to discard the data.
The data's still there?

Like, if someone reads my post, they don't suddenly forget the original post. They've just gotten more data in an easily-digestable format. So I don't get what you want here? Did you want me not to post the top line data?
 

Shadybiz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,105
How many coal mines have reopened in the time he's been in office?

Honestly not sure. Most likely 0. BUT, one interesting tidbit is that one of the few things still keeping coal somewhat alive is the fact that China buys a good bit of our coal. With whom...we're in a trade war. Lol.