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Ultron

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,769
header.jpg




As a lover of cool space things and factory games, I was really looking forward to Dyson Sphere Program since I saw the trailer a few weeks ago! It's out now and is on sale for 18 bucks! It's a Factorio/Satisfactory style automation game about building factories, but you end up covering an entire star cluster, along with interstellar shipping, while working to build the titular Dyson Sphere. I've played a bit of it so far, and it seems pretty solid with an already huge tech tree. I'm really really interested to see how they ramp you up from building individual miners and conveyors to such a large scale.

I've played a bit so far, and the only thing that's really stood out to me as a bit off is some awkward english in the translations. It looks like it's from a small Chinese team, so that's probably to be expected.

If you wanna have a look before buying there's a ton of gameplay for it hitting Youtube already, with various "builder" type people covering it. I enjoyed Sky Storm's gameplay of it:

 
OP
OP
Ultron

Ultron

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,769
Does it have anything like the logistic robots/network in factorio?

Looking into the tech tree, it looks like the interplanetary stuff is handled by a logistics bot type system. It says you set the supply/demand of different planets, and then the logistics ships will automatically handle it. I don't see anything about it having the kind of logistics where it delivers stuff automatically to the player's inventory.

You do have personal construction robots from the start for laying down buildings, but they may only be for building stuff out of your personal inventory. I'm not 100% sure on that. If that's the case, that'd certainly lead to a scale limitation down the road if everything you build has to come out of the player inventory.

And I don't see any "circuit" type stuff for the complex logic things you can do in Factorio.

For me, that's probably okay since Factorio is always there for when I wanna get real crazy. Having a different game with a different theme and different takes on systems can be enough for X hours, even if it doesn't go as in depth.
 

evilalien

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,494
Looking into the tech tree, it looks like the interplanetary stuff is handled by a logistics bot type system. It says you set the supply/demand of different planets, and then the logistics ships will automatically handle it. I don't see anything about it having the kind of logistics where it delivers stuff automatically to the player's inventory.

You do have personal construction robots from the start for laying down buildings, but they may only be for building stuff out of your personal inventory. I'm not 100% sure on that. If that's the case, that'd certainly lead to a scale limitation down the road if everything you build has to come out of the player inventory.

And I don't see any "circuit" type stuff for the complex programming things you do in Factorio.

Thanks, that still sounds meaty enough to hook me as is. They can always expand on it later.
 

Chronos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,204
Instant buy. I love automation type games. Hadn't even heard of this until all the announcements of Early Access today. Looks like it should be good based on early impressions and the trailer.
 

ErrorJustin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,465
Looked just OK until the last ~15 seconds of that trailer. Then it looked like Factorio 3 and I was like :O
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,359
Cool Idea and I love Factorio but I can't give it the stamp of approval from the Dyson Society.

- Dyson Spheres are unrealistic. It should use Dyson Swarms.
- Why travel through the galaxy to find planets when you have enough material in the Solar System to make dozen Dyson Swarms
 

JustinH

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,399
When I saw the title I was like "Wrong section? Is this some new vacuum cleaner? (tell me more)"

Judging from the trailer though, this looks like something I'd want to at least try.
 
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OP
Ultron

Ultron

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,769

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,058
Factorio nerd, Satisfactory ultra-nerd reporting in.

Clocked 20 hours, enough to get a gist of what kind of production line matrix the game requires, restarted with a much neater layout. AMA

tl;dr- i feel this game delivers way, way more than its price point even right now right at the start of EA. The UI/UX is clunky in a few ways, translation is questionable (to the point of being misinformative sometimes lol) but there is already a very, very solid 50-100h-per-run game in here and with obvious stuff to be added down the line. Basically I would venture to say that outside of some controls and performance jank, you could make an argument this feels like a retail release and stuff they're eventually going to add down the EA roadmap (combat, defense, etc) as expansions, even.

In a nutshell, it's a lot less obtuse on a micro-level vs Factorio
- single lane belts
- much easier to cross belts w/ elevation rather than specific underground parts
- way, WAY simpler sorter implementation
- power initially is just chucking stuff into thermal generators which == coal w/o water piping shenanigans
- much lower building count (i.e. not spamming 17 miners to fill a belt)
- no pipes, fluids all exist on belts although they can be stored in fluid-specific containers very compact

honestly, after playing Factorio forever, this is a plus- I wouldn't want to get into yet another game with a lot of busywork just getting things to WORK

On the flipside, it trades all the micro-complexity (in my opinion) a lot of macro-complexity in that there are a lot more different parallel production lines even from basic resources, which alongside lower building count actually further weakens the strength-of-concept of a main bus- both runs I've found that the best solution really was to arrange things in a way that they generally made sense with things reasonably close to where they wanted to go w/o crossing over half your base in the process. (This also is Satisfactory experience speaking where main buses are just a bad idea lol)

There's a much larger focus on power generation (hence the name) and I feel that the game generally isn't going to scale in the same way Factorio does, i.e. building count (honestly, it's really hard to considering how much Factorio is coded pedal-to-the-metal), and instead scale based on your existing stuff doing more and more. Instead, you get to literally physically fly to other planets and eventually other star systems, set up first sublight and then warp-drive networks to get stuff where they need to go... which uses a shit ton of power, again playing into the main concept of the game. This is again a simplification from Factorio trains which... just works so you can focus more on macro design.

That being said, a lot of mindsets of factorio and production line/automation games in general very strongly apply. Setting up a main mall so you spend less time building stuff to expand is still almost mandatory to make it anywhere in the game in a timely fashion
yw2oBJA.jpg


One thing that blew my mind is that the geometry for the entire solar system actually is accurate to what you see from the planet, and affects everything from solar panel activity to whether your railguns can shoot swarm sails into orbit or if they can't get sufficient pitch as the planet rotates. It's a simplified yet reasonably believable model of a solar system including planet rotations, orbits, etc.

Highly, highly recommend if you're into Factorio.

edit:
1ndnqEa.png


the way the square grid crushes itself as it approaches the poles is hilarious, frustrating and yet endearing all at the same time

Idk but Satisfactory is is slowly becoming like a Factorio 2 lol

strongly disagree, they aim in very different directions lol
 
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MagnusGman

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,041
Dallas
Jumped into this and I'm loving it so far! Came out at the perfect time too as I've been trying to get into Factorio for years at this point - and it finally clicked for me last week. So I've jumped from one to the other lol. I really love the aesthetic of it all - seeing your industrialization from high orbit is super cool. Can't wait to actually start building the damn sphere.
 

c0Zm1c

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,206
I bought this last night and ended up playing it for 5 hours straight. I'm surprised how polished it feels for a game just released into Early Access.
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,058
You'd suggest I'd keep it? I'm at the 2 hours mark, starting to automate research. I like it but I can't say it's better than Factorio, it's just more eye-candy. Maybe I'm not far enough.

While there's clear inspiration, it's a different game than Factorio. I think where I'm at is I've had my fill of Factorio for a while, mods or otherwise (lol) so the slightly different direction it takes is a breath of fresh air while scratching the automation itch. You're pretty much required to blast off into space to other planets to progress (3rd research color requires resources not on home planet) and that's where it really, really diverges. Considering the price point, I'd say keep.

Can you elaborate on that? I've only played Factorio a long time ago for a bit, but I'm curious about Satisfactory.

Factorio really is about scaling up to insanity. The entire game is built around that, from its framework (squeezing every bit of UPS) to its UI/features (blueprints, etc). The game wants you to exponentially grow and constantly expand enough to do so, while also fending off eventual swarms of enemies.

Satisfactory, maybe partially because it's a 3D game and thus a lot more taxing on the system, has a little bit more of a focus on (relatively) smaller numbers of buildings and taking advantage of the 3rd dimension which opens up a lot of freedom in how you want to lay things out. I'd say it's 1/2 automation and 1/2 3D sandbox-ish builder (subnautica, minecraft) where the game lets you choose how you want your shit to look.

It also trades base defense and procedural generation for a handcrafted world, which makes for some really cool exploration moments, albeit slightly at the cost of replayability.

In terms of its core automation mechanics, the biggest divergence Satisfactory has is that it leans hard into 'alternate recipes' which are tied to the exploration aspect and slightly RNG in what you get out of it in each run. Being able to pump out 50% more Steel from Solid Steel Ingot changes up how you approach runs, or getting alts that swap plastic dependency for silicon, etc. This means quite a fair bit of refactoring bases to boost efficiency- once you amass a library of alternates, there are multiple ways to arrive at the same later-tier parts which leads to an almost limitless number of possible permutations in how you use your resources to get the parts you want.

The main limiting factor in Satisfactory is how long you take to build things. No blueprints. Devs have said no plans for factorio-style blueprints, since people would just instantly scale their way into object limits and performance issues.

Not to tangent the thread, but some screens

CofLFUP.png

Lr0Kk29.png

nCaf76j.png



edit: On topic, I'm finally at the phase where I have a decent-sized Swarm up for power in the entire system, but my original planet's first few tapped copper/iron is finally depleting and stone/coal (which is a hard requirement to maintain the swarm) has an expiry date on it, so I'm trying to figure out the best way to set up a more compartmentalized production network across the planets and gas giant in the system to get me through to warps before everything runs out lol

Nj6z2E0.png
 
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Jul 26, 2018
2,464
judging by the picture at the top it will be made in chunks. you start with a framework, mine out the materials. you can already see bits around the sun.
Cool Idea and I love Factorio but I can't give it the stamp of approval from the Dyson Society.

- Dyson Spheres are unrealistic. It should use Dyson Swarms.
- Why travel through the galaxy to find planets when you have enough material in the Solar System to make dozen Dyson Swarms


Any documentary or something to learn more about dyson spheres or other related concepts?
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,359
Any documentary or something to learn more about dyson spheres or other related concepts?

Isaac Arthur
www.youtube.com

Isaac Arthur

This channel focuses on exploring concepts in science with an emphasis on futurism and space exploration, along with a healthy dose of science fiction. While...

His playlist Megastructures begins with a Dyson Sphere/Swarm


He goes heavily into the economics and the low-tech prerequisites that would make the start of a Dyson Swarm (solar energy and asteroid mining). We could start today with a Dyson swarm and would outproduce all of Earth industrial output in a matter of decades to a hundred years (depends on the initial investment and pouring every coin and industrial output into the next machines to make more energy and materials and how long the Earth could grow their industrial output from earths resources alone or with their own solar mining) with O'Neill Cylinders for Millions of people.

The economics of a Dyson Swarm are just mindboggling. You have enough materials in the solar system to have people living in O'Neill Cylinders by the trillions, hundreds of trillions. After 200 years, the economic and military might of a Dyson Swarm would be greater than 99% of all imagined Sci-Fi universes.
The autonomous defense platforms alone would make the Solar System impenetrable. Not even talking about the Millions of military ships and a hundred to a thousand times that, the civilian ships (just imagine the logistics of civilian and trading/supllying travel between cylinders.)
It's a lot.
The only stumbling block would be human reproduction.
 

scurker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
660
Oh man, this was an instant buy for me. I've dumped 200+ hours into Factorio so I fear how much of a time sink this will be but that trailer looks great.
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,058
Little further in yet again, another big divergence from Factorio is how exploring both the initial system and warping to other solar systems can yield rare resources which shortcuts (and I really mean shortcut) a lot of production lines. Reminds me a little of a cross between Satisfactory alt recipes and 4X-style (Endless Space especially) empire bonuses from luxuries.

The initial complexity of the game starts to make a lot of sense. It's borderline too much to handle and is intentionally that way to make the simplification benefits of rare resources very worth the effort.

Example- Graphene is a mid-late game resource type that's a combination of Graphite and Sulfur, where Sulfur is an additional production chain involving a whole bunch of things and a byproduct (Hydrogen) from fracking oil.

Researching the tech to explore gas giants and exploiting the one in home system (presumably always present regardless of seed) yielded Fireice which splits directly into Graphene and Hydrogen. Scaling up Graphene without this would have been an absolute nightmare.
 

Morten88

Member
Dec 22, 2019
1,849
Bought the game earlier today and played for a couple of hours and i gotta say that im very impresed with it so far. I didnt really like factorio so much, but this game really hits it for me.
 

B.K.

Member
Oct 31, 2017
17,038
I've been watching some streams on Twitch. It looks interesting, but it also looks really overwhelming. I get the felling I'm not smart enough to play this game.
 

Cirrus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,120
This game is a lot of fun, its great being able to zoom out and see the planet covered in your factory.
 

Mercador

Member
Nov 18, 2017
2,840
Quebec City
I've been watching some streams on Twitch. It looks interesting, but it also looks really overwhelming. I get the felling I'm not smart enough to play this game.
It's not difficult, it's easier than Factorio in my opinion because you don't have to do a full-mega-bus-of-death. You can segment easily and the way the research works, you don't have to bind it all together.
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,058
Even more thoughts

Main bus kinda works for this game, and people used to building one for Factorio definitely get a lot of mileage from one just from simply being in the same mindset. That being said, I totally agree that due to the bottom-heavy complexity of the production chains in the game alongside the lower number of buildings in general, a main bus isn't as necessary. Part of it is Satisfactory experience talking, of course, lol

I think the most important mindset to have to avoid overwhelming spaghetti if not using a main bus is the understanding that there's really two types of automation in these kinds of games- Automation for things you carry around for progressing/expanding (i.e. the mall with buildings/conveyors/sorters so you're not endlessly manually crafting everything you need to place down), and automation for things which you need virtually an unlimited supply of (Research, Dyson parts, etc)

The former is intermittent/finite, while the latter should infinitely be moving producing. Having these two compartmentalized away from each other in the basic resources that feeds them, and having the latter grouped into discrete production units where everything makes just enough for that production line, helps combat having spaghetti lines going everywhere.

For example, Graphene (again, lol)- it's very tempting to pull the Graphene line you already had for other stuff to feed Purple research when starting that out with Purple- but that that's a bad practice since expanding Purple research subsequently will then require you to go back down that line to where you're making Graphene and scale it up (which then means scaling up Sulfur, etc there) and run into all kinds of space issues, where it's better to actually make Graphene specifically for that Purple production unit, and exactly enough for that unit. The only things going into these units should be something that's either very basic and you can get from all over the map, or that you're importing from other planets.

I put this together to highlight the concept in practice for red/yellow, since research generally asks for 1:1:1:1:1 ratios other than the first few techs. With this, only the most basic resources (and that 1 additional refined oil) needs to be accounted for, and the setup is infinitely scalable. It's far neater to do this than to pipe in organic crystals, titanium crystals, or plastic, etc. from elsewhere then rage when wanting to move from 1/s research to 2/s or 4/s or whatever.

Having this layout in mind it's totally possible to build only the Red research portion of it (don't do the loop for additional hydrogen it's a meme that only is relevant for like 2 hours until you actually need more refined oil than hydrogen) with the rest of the space reserved and refined oil running into a tank, then build the yellow section later.

*edit: easier to dump them all in the steam guide*

edit: or another alternative to main bus which avoids spaghetti is spamming logistics all over the place, but I inherently dislike it because it does result in chaos of its own and draws power.
 
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padlock

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
867
I picked this up due to all the positive impressions, but I'm having a really hard time getting over the incredibly poor localization. It's absolutely terrible. I know it seems like a petty thing to complain about, but it's really affecting my enjoyment of the game. Maybe it won't be as bothersome once I'm out of the 'tutorial' phase and won't have to deal with so many tips.
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,058
Localizing something in flux where design and even components/tech might potentially changing around is a $$ burn since translated lines paid for might end up being discarded, so I would assume shortcuts were taken to get it in a somewhat playable state.

Also a safe assumption is that it'd proooobably improve as core mechanics have been locked down since it's now in EA, and considering how well the game is doing there's probably some extra $$ to burn now lol

Did another repeatable layout for solar sails, the other big constantly active production line. Dear lord this thing burns through stones and coal. Literally throwing rocks into outer space.

*edit- easier to dump them all on the steam guide*

4/s is almost overkill when starting out the first swarm ring. Assuming there's enough guns to shoot all 240/min into space that should net ~6k Dyson Swarm, going up to ~10k as tech improves. THAT'S A LOT OF POWER
 
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eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,087
I have to say, the game is really polished for an EA (outside of translation problems, but heck 5 chinese people aint that bad). I am enjoying it more than Satisfactory (as Satisfactory "gates" feel so bad).
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,058
I'm at the crossroads where I can blast off into another system and potentially set up/restart there, or doggedly continue on building a sphere on the home system with pretty much only 1 rare resource. I think I might go with the home system route just so I have a barometer on just how much easier it is to migrate to a far better system in subsequent runs

p.s. moved all the diagrams (some of them had errors that have since been corrected) to a steam guide:
steamcommunity.com

Steam Community :: Guide :: Dyson Sphere Program Production Chain Layouts

Compact production chain layouts for most common products that need to be made indefinitely...