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Dis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,934
Banning stuff people are addicted to always works out great. Never backfires. Nope.

Banning kids from accessing gambling is pretty standard in many nations you know? The UK doesn't have a huge wave of kids illegally gambling suddenly just because there's roadblocks in the way. If you're a child then you're shit out of luck, I have to assume you're an adult, in which case you can continue to follow normal gambling rules for the nations that rule this stuff is gambling. If you don't like the gambling rules for the nation you're in that's an absolutely different thing altogether but video games using gambling methods and then having crap excuses to sidestep actual gambling rules is a problem that had to be fixed.

Also before anyone tries to claim "but it isn't gambling, you can't cash out!" Don't even bother. It is gambling, always has been, that excuse was always horseshit and these governments are the elected officials who decide what is considered gambling and their say on it is vastly more important than what an EA or whatever exec thinks of it.
 

CowboyAloy

Banned
Dec 28, 2019
255
United States
This should have already been happening years ago. Microtransactions and loot boxes never should have been able to get off the ground to begin with.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
All this really does is make more games not release over here and make people have to go through hoops if they want to play those games instead.
That's true, but most F2P games are utter trash, would you really miss them.

I hope the US follows suit to be honest, I'd love it if this business model was basically kneecapped by most governments making the model untenable.
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,706
LA
Just force them to make the games rated AO if they include real money gambling/lootboxes of any kind. That's why we have ratings, but the industry doesn't want to regulate itself.
 

Paz

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,148
Brisbane, Australia
Game companies won't like it when governments from countries that can't be easily bought step in to stop this abusive nonsense, the industry should have self-regulated a long time ago but the profits were simply too large for too long.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,824
Australia
Henri Bontenbal, the primary submitter of this proposal, had a short interview with Gamer.nl about this:
gamer.nl

CDA wil verbod op enkel betaalde lootboxen | Nieuws | Gamer.nl

Het CDA wil enkel een verbod op betaalde lootboxen in games. Dat zegt Tweede Kamerlid Henri Bontenbal in een interview met Gamer.nl
  • Says it's only about paid loot boxes, says he's fine with unpaid loot boxes
  • "It's about children under social pressure buying things, with there being a business model behind that with developers building all sorts of tricks to stimulate that. That needs to stop"
  • "I want it banned for children, other ages I'm leaving up to the minister"

Making it so any game with loot boxes is automatically 18+ Only would still be pretty fucking effective, thankfully.
 

NewErakid

Member
Jan 17, 2018
1,089
Banning kids from accessing gambling is pretty standard in many nations you know? The UK doesn't have a huge wave of kids illegally gambling suddenly just because there's roadblocks in the way. If you're a child then you're shit out of luck, I have to assume you're an adult, in which case you can continue to follow normal gambling rules for the nations that rule this stuff is gambling. If you don't like the gambling rules for the nation you're in that's an absolutely different thing altogether but video games using gambling methods and then having crap excuses to sidestep actual gambling rules is a problem that had to be fixed.

Also before anyone tries to claim "but it isn't gambling, you can't cash out!" Don't even bother. It is gambling, always has been, that excuse was always horseshit and these governments are the elected officials who decide what is considered gambling and their say on it is vastly more important than what an EA or whatever exec thinks of it.
Well based in what ithers have said it doesnt seem like something that would be super enforceable.

Making it so any game with loot boxes is automatically 18+ Only would still be pretty fucking effective, thankfully.
Would it? Call of Duty is rated m for mature and kids still seem to play it.
 

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,831
Netherlands
constaterende dat de Nederlandse Kansspelautoriteit een poging heeft,

What does this mean?
He just forgot to translate that sentence. It means "noting that the Dutch gaming authority has attempted to"
Henri Bontenbal, the primary submitter of this proposal, had a short interview with Gamer.nl about this:
gamer.nl

CDA wil verbod op enkel betaalde lootboxen | Nieuws | Gamer.nl

Het CDA wil enkel een verbod op betaalde lootboxen in games. Dat zegt Tweede Kamerlid Henri Bontenbal in een interview met Gamer.nl
  • Says it's only about paid loot boxes, says he's fine with unpaid loot boxes
  • "It's about children under social pressure buying things, with there being a business model behind that with developers building all sorts of tricks to stimulate that. That needs to stop"
  • "I want it banned for children, other ages I'm leaving up to the minister"
Seems fair to me, as much as I'd like all gambling to be banned, as it's becoming a bit of an epidemic, what adults do with their money is up to them. Better to not instill gambling addiction into them before they become adult.
 

Dark Ninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,070
Which major games still use loot boxes? I don't play them but I think some sports games do not sure? Everyone's moved on to battle passes. Gacha should fall under this though that's almost worse.
 

Dis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,934
Well based in what ithers have said it doesnt seem like something that would be super enforceable.


Would it? Call of Duty is rated m for mature and kids still seem to play it.

Roadblocks that make it harder to do in fact do help stop the numbers being so high so even if it doesn't 100% stop it, it sure as shit helps stop some kids accessing it. That's the point. If the whole point of every law is to 100% stop all of something or the law is worthless then there's not a single law on the planet that would be worth it.

Also like all bans or regulations, they aren't just about stopping current people but future generations. Peope who are addicted now may jump through hoops to get their lootbox gambling fix but kids who never tried it in the first place down the road because it was always banned for them or hard to access will more often not even bother. This isn't a short term goal only thing.
 

Edward

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
5,103
Which major games still use loot boxes? I don't play them but I think some sports games do not sure? Everyone's moved on to battle passes. Gacha should fall under this though that's almost worse.
Gacha is just another word for lootbox and everyone should absolutely go after them and i say that as someone who plays a bunch of gacha games. Like, an unhealthy amount. I often have 5 accounts of any game going at once through emulators on PC.

Burn the whole system down ban loot boxes, gachas, packs everything that even remotely resembles gambling. I know battle passes/skins/mounts is highly hated on this forum but ill say i prefer it over gambling and like it or not games have to monetize to survive and there are absolutely non-scummy ways of doing it.
 

NewErakid

Member
Jan 17, 2018
1,089
Roadblocks that make it harder to do in fact do help stop the numbers being so high so even if it doesn't 100% stop it, it sure as shit helps stop some kids accessing it. That's the point. If the whole point of every law is to 100% stop all of something or the law is worthless then there's not a single law on the planet that would be worth it.

Also like all bans or regulations, they aren't just about stopping current people but future generations. Peope who are addicted now may jump through hoops to get their lootbox gambling fix but kids who never tried it in the first place down the road because it was always banned for them or hard to access will more often not even bother. This isn't a short term goal only thing.
Well again it remains to be seen how this will be enforced if stuff like genshin is still allowed in Belgium is still freely available im not sure it will be doing much to help.

Also are you saying that you think that just because kids dont grow up with lootboxes they cant still possibly develop gambling addictions as adults? Because obviously gambling addiction has existed long before loot boxes.

There's probably more effective ways to curtail lootbox addictions anyway like maybe adding spending limits over a certain period of time that would allow those who engage responsibly to continue playing the game without roadblocks while still helping certain other from overspending.
 
Last edited:

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
How could there be a more effective way of curtailing loot box addiction than banning them? That's just ridiculous.

Honestly, I'd understand if a person said "screw you, I like gacha games and don't want you to ban my hobby," that's a take. But, I can't really respect the idea that someone would argue that there's a better way, lol. People should just be honest and straight if they think gacha games and paid loot boxes should be allowed to exist.
 

NewErakid

Member
Jan 17, 2018
1,089
How could there be a more effective way of curtailing loot box addiction than banning them? That's just ridiculous.

Honestly, I'd understand if a person said "screw you, I like gacha games and don't want you to ban my hobby," that's a take. But, I can't really respect the idea that someone would argue that there's a better way, lol. People should just be honest and straight if they think gacha games and paid loot boxes should be allowed to exist.
I mean i was just listing of a suggestion that I've read before which sounds good to me and yes i do believe games likes gachas and lootboxes should be allowwd to exist i dont think i was being ambiguous about that.
 

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,831
Netherlands
Well again it remains to be seen how this will be enforced if stuff like genshin is still allowed in Belgium is still freely available im not sure it will be doing much to help.

Also are you saying that you think that just because kids dont grow up with lootboxes they cant still possibly develop gambling addictions as adults? Because obviously gambling addiction has existed long before loot boxes.
Alcohol addiction has existed for a long time too, doesn't mean we should force feed hard liquor down our children's throat.
Youth gambling addiction rates have exploded over the past ten years, and most studies specifically link this to loot boxes, as one of the root causes.
There's probably more effective ways to curtail lootbox addictions anyway like maybe adding spending limits over a certain period of time that would allow those who engage responsibly to continue playing the game without roadblocks while still helping certain other from overspending.
What. How about we just don't normalize gambling as part of their upbringing.
 

Dis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,934
Well again it remains to be seen how this will be enforced if stuff like genshin is still allowed in Belgium is still freely available im not sure it will be doing much to help.

Also are you saying that you think that just because kids dont grow up with lootboxes they cant still possibly develop gambling addictions as adults? Because obviously gambling addiction has existed long before loot boxes.

There's probably more effective ways to curtail lootbox addictions anyway like maybe adding spending limits over a certain period of time that would allow those who engage responsibly to continue playing the game without roadblocks while still helping certain other from overspending.

No I'm not saying kids can't learn to gamble in other ways because that's absolutely a stupid thing to say. I said that more kids won't bother with the hoop jumping to gamble with lootboxes in games. Gambling in other ways can and should be handled by appropriate laws for those gambling methods. Again some kids of course will still gamble and some will become addicted, no law is 100% effective but any way to cut down on harmful habits and correctly regulate things is the correct move even if it doesn't stop all people from developing issues. Spending limits are common on UK gambling apps and they also outright ban kids, you can and should do more than one thing at the same time.

No one is arguing this will 100% stop everything, to do so would be absolutely ridiculous, but regulations and making things harder to access does in fact prevent some of those things being used as widespread as they otherwise would be.

Edit: as above poster said, alcohol is harmful and existed forever and we don't just openly sell it to kids unrestricted or act like because some kids may get it then there's no point in laws prevent kids accessing it. Same with cigarettes, we don't sell them legally to kids and haven't for decades but no ones claiming because kids are sometimes smoking we should just let kids walk on up and buy some of them. Gambling and lootboxes are no different, you take steps to lower the rates and make it so less people get drawn into it in the first place.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
I mean i was just listing of a suggestion that I've read before which sounds good to me and yes i do believe games likes gachas and lootboxes should be allowwd to exist i dont think i was being ambiguous about that.
It's fine if you think they should exist but I still don't see how you could reasonably believe that anything would be more effective at curtailing people getting addicted to them than banning them. It's so nonsensical that it has to be loot box propaganda from some developer or mobile phone gaming site or some shit.
 

NewErakid

Member
Jan 17, 2018
1,089
No I'm not saying kids can't learn to gamble in other ways because that's absolutely a stupid thing to say. I said that more kids won't bother with the hoop jumping to gamble with lootboxes in games. Gambling in other ways can and should be handled by appropriate laws for those gambling methods. Again some kids of course will still gamble and some will become addicted, no law is 100% effective but any way to cut down on harmful habits and correctly regulate things is the correct move even if it doesn't stop all people from developing issues. Spending limits are common on UK gambling apps and they also outright ban kids, you can and should do more than one thing at the same time.

No one is arguing this will 100% stop everything, to do so would be absolutely ridiculous, but regulations and making things harder to access does in fact prevent some of those things being used as widespread as they otherwise would be.

Edit: as above poster said, alcohol is harmful and existed forever and we don't just openly sell it to kids unrestricted or act like because some kids may get it then there's no point in laws prevent kids accessing it. Same with cigarettes, we don't sell them legally to kids and haven't for decades but no ones claiming because kids are sometimes smoking we should just let kids walk on up and buy some of them. Gambling and lootboxes are no different, you take steps to lower the rates and make it so less people get drawn into it in the first place.
I understand the argument that no law will outright stop everyone and this is for harm reduction i just question how much of reduction this would really be. Again how is it being enforced? Feels like it'd be much harder than tobacco and achohol since you cant just download those.

In regards to this article specifically it says they want to ban lootboxes from kids but not adults and im just not sure how you would accomplish that? I guess you add parental controls but i feel like that exists already so not sure of want making it into law would accomplish.

As I've mentioned before kids technically arent allowed to play cod but parents dont seem to give a shit and but their kids the games anyway. That doesn't seem to be true of Alchohol or at least not nearly to the same extent as parents buying their kids call of Duty which does in fact have lootboxes as far as i can remember.

It's fine if you think they should exist but I still don't see how you could reasonably believe that anything would be more effective at curtailing people getting addicted to them than banning them. It's so nonsensical that it has to be loot box propaganda from some developer or mobile phone gaming site or some shit.
Admittedly saying its more effective wasn't the best way of putting it. Saying its a potential compromise with reducing harm to some extent while still allowing it for those that want to play those kinds of games to continue playing them is more what i meant. Feel free to disagree.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
Admittedly saying its more effective wasn't the best way of putting it. Saying its a potential compromise with reducing harm to some extent while still allowing it for those that want to play those kinds of games to continue playing them is more what i meant. Feel free to disagree.
Yeah that's better.


------------------------------
I mean, I'll be honest here, I've been gaming from the start, I think these games are a plague on the industry. I think that the only generation that would miss loot boxes and gacha games if they were banned is this generation, right here. Future generations would not miss them because they'd be gone. Like it'd have been better if cigarettes were banned, once those smokers passed who'd give a shit, you know? And I say that as a smoker lol. So in the long term I think all of society would be better off and it'd only be this generation that's "harmed" by the ban. This isn't pot, people aren't going to be growing gacha games in their basement, game makers will just sell you your waifus for a set price like before and things would be fine.

I liken argument to guns. And I have a gun too. So many people are like can we not ban them, "if we knock of 10 or 20 gun deaths a year would the number of dead be low enough that we can keep our guns?". And I find that crass too because it's all about finding what an acceptable amount of people to be sacrificed is.

Now, I admit, there is an acceptable amount of people to sacrifice for gun ownership, and cigarettes, air pollution and even gambling addiction. If only 10 people a year died to pollution, or were killed in gun violence, or we're addicted to gambling or tobacco or whatever those issues would be non-issues in a country as big as mine.

But I support clean air, support banning tobacco, support banning guns and support banning loot boxes. I think all of them would be huge benefits to society. Hell, I wish smoking had been banned before I was born, maybe I'd have a better vice, or no vice and have an extra 280 bucks a month to do what I wanted with. God what almost 300 more bucks a month could do for my standard of living. I want better for those who come after me even if I personally would probably really miss smoking if it were banned.

While I know there are people that like tobacco, guns, gambling, whatever, I've never meant anyone who it really positively affected, no-one that was empty until they discovered gacha games or guns or smoking. I think that's a key difference between good vices, like exercise, or diet, art and cheap vices like gambling and drugs. I see no way society could be worse off by banning any of the things I mentioned.

And by allowing the things I mentioned just to placate the current generation hooked on them we damn millions, if not billions or trillions, after us to also get addicted to them and to me that math isn't worth it.
 

JustinBB7

Member
Nov 16, 2017
2,338
I'm Dutch and don't really like this, because companies will just not release their games here. Lost Ark never officially released here for that reason already. If this goes through more companies will just go ok bye. Netherlands doesn't matter to them since we're too small.

This would only work if it's on EU level.
 

Kazooie

Member
Jul 17, 2019
5,011
battle pass induced FOMO
If I correctly understand battle passes, then it is a one time payment (maybe yearly?), and not a form of gambling or whaling, right? While I do not like online stuff, if I do not misunderstand what battle passes entail, they are not dangerous business models. Unlike surprise mechanics which are designed to hook vulberable people and bankrupt them.
 

Deleted member 93841

User-requested account closure
Banned
Mar 17, 2021
4,580
If I correctly understand battle passes, then it is a one time payment (maybe yearly?), and not a form of gambling or whaling, right? While I do not like online stuff, if I do not misunderstand what battle passes entail, they are not dangerous business models. Unlike surprise mechanics which are designed to hook vulberable people and bankrupt them.

Yeah, battle passes and lootboxes are two completely different things. With a battle pass you also know what you're going to get if you play for X time.

I don't have much of an issue with battle passes, tbh. It's a once per season purchase that allows games like CoD to be continually developed without locking new maps and in-game content behind DLC. It's a lot better than the old days where we had to buy map packs that we could then never use, because even 1 person in a lobby that didn't own the map pack meant that the matchfinder couldn't let you play on DLC maps.
 

Samanyolu

Member
Apr 27, 2019
861
While this is a good thing, the irony is also very strong in this case. The Dutch government pretty much owns the biggest gambling/lottery initiatives/companies in the country and are putting out a lot of marketing for them

For the Dutchies among us, Lubach had a funny bit about this:
 

Kazooie

Member
Jul 17, 2019
5,011
While this is a good thing, the irony is also very strong in this case. The Dutch government pretty much owns the biggest gambling/lottery initiatives/companies in the country and are putting out a lot of marketing for them

For the Dutchies among us, Lubach had a funny bit about this:

Are they targetting children?
 

Chairman Yang

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,587
Seems pretty pointless to ban it then.

Performative at best.
Depends. If a critical mass of other countries implement laws like this, and there's even a prospect of eventual enforcement, it's not going to be worth it for companies to design lootbox games. If there's even a substantial risk of a market banning paid lootboxes, companies are going to think twice.

I think this is a positive step.
 

Mukrab

Member
Apr 19, 2020
7,486
Henri Bontenbal, the primary submitter of this proposal, had a short interview with Gamer.nl about this:
gamer.nl

CDA wil verbod op enkel betaalde lootboxen | Nieuws | Gamer.nl

Het CDA wil enkel een verbod op betaalde lootboxen in games. Dat zegt Tweede Kamerlid Henri Bontenbal in een interview met Gamer.nl
  • Says it's only about paid loot boxes, says he's fine with unpaid loot boxes
  • "It's about children under social pressure buying things, with there being a business model behind that with developers building all sorts of tricks to stimulate that. That needs to stop"
  • "I want it banned for children, other ages I'm leaving up to the minister"
Is there a loophole? Like devs will just make the lootboxes 'free' but you unlock them through something that lets you pay. Like lets say a dungeon gives you a lootbox at the end. You need ingame money for a dungeon but realistocally you can only do two for free every week or something, but then you can buy dungeon keys in the store.
 

Gespenst MKIV

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,116
Yes this alone doesn't do much but if more and more countries start doing this then it puts pressure on the companies to change the system, maybe they will find even more predatory methods but in that case you go after those too. Doing nothing helps nobody.
 

Dis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,934
I understand the argument that no law will outright stop everyone and this is for harm reduction i just question how much of reduction this would really be. Again how is it being enforced? Feels like it'd be much harder than tobacco and achohol since you cant just download those.

In regards to this article specifically it says they want to ban lootboxes from kids but not adults and im just not sure how you would accomplish that? I guess you add parental controls but i feel like that exists already so not sure of want making it into law would accomplish.

As I've mentioned before kids technically arent allowed to play cod but parents dont seem to give a shit and but their kids the games anyway. That doesn't seem to be true of Alchohol or at least not nearly to the same extent as parents buying their kids call of Duty which does in fact have lootboxes as far as i can remember.

So if they want to allow adults to buy lootboxes that's fine, adults are allowed to gamble here as well. The way they handle that is by verifying you via a bank account when you want to gamble. The extra step of having to hand over your bank card details to verify will turn some kids off from using their parents as well and would allow kids to still play said games without being able to buy the lootboxes etc.

Also it totally depends on the country when it comes to games like CoD. It isn't illegal for kids to play Call of Duty here, it isn't illegal for them to play any 18+ rated game, or watch an 18+ rated movie in their own homes (aside form adult movies which would be classed as illegal I believe). The way they handle the ratings is stores can't sell those games to kids under the age rating. Their parents can still buy it for them and they are still legally able to play those things if that's the case. Under the rules of lootboxes if this passes then cod wouldn't be able to sell kids those lootboxes but they could continue to do so for adults. Even if kids use their parents payment details to get around that, it's the parents decision at that point to let them get around the rules or to punish them for doing so, like every other decision they make.

Alcohol also is the same to an extent, it isn't a hard 18+ non stop everywhere but it comes down to who is buying it and where its been consumed I believe and we don't see kids constantly drinking non stop from young ages. Either way, you're acting like this kind of regulation is impossible to enforce for gambling when we already do it in many European nations. Gambling is common place all over and yes I mean app downloads as well. I can download hundreds of apps right now on my phone, tablet or pc and gamble for real money. It's regulated in a number of ways with one being as I said, age verifying the user account, also accounts are locked to one account per actual person and there are hard limits imposed on how many times you can play games in a 24 hour limit.

Enforcing rules on these games isn't anywhere near as hard as you think, especially if adults can still continue to gamble on them. Also as another example of how, if they wanted to be real heavy handed on enforcement, the UK recently started blocking IP addresses not belonging to UK ISPs when trying to use the national lottery app or website. Before I could use a vpn when visiting my in laws to trick it into thinking I was in the UK still 5o do so, now it pops up saying my IP isn't in their database and can't be used for their site etc. Of course there's ways around it but most people aren't going to bother jumping through the hoops to do so.

Point being there are a huge number of ways to handle this and any of them would bring the numbers down.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
I'm Dutch and don't really like this, because companies will just not release their games here. Lost Ark never officially released here for that reason already. If this goes through more companies will just go ok bye. Netherlands doesn't matter to them since we're too small.

This would only work if it's on EU level.

The general trend though has been moving away from lootboxes ever since it picked up the scrutiny of several governments. The more this element is recognized as the gambling that it is, the less likely future endeavors will go down that route. You're not missing out on much atm.
 

Raspyberry

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,237
I'm Dutch and don't really like this, because companies will just not release their games here. Lost Ark never officially released here for that reason already. If this goes through more companies will just go ok bye. Netherlands doesn't matter to them since we're too small.

This would only work if it's on EU level.
You're not missing much. Your government did you a favour. I wish this garbage predatory model was banned in Canada as well.
 

JhOnNY_HD

Member
Dec 13, 2020
823
Don't count with spain the association that represents videogames industry already said that will fight to stop the regulation
 
Aug 13, 2019
3,575
This is good, but Diablo Immortal has shown that if you just change the presentation a bit, you can still have lootboxes.
 

Spesi

Member
Apr 26, 2022
723
Finland
Good, it's mind boggling that when a kid opens up Fifa, first thing he/she sees is an advertisement about FUT etc.
 

JustinBB7

Member
Nov 16, 2017
2,338
You're not missing much. Your government did you a favour. I wish this garbage predatory model was banned in Canada as well.

I just ignore lootboxes in games that do have them, I would have liked to try out Lost Ark. I think they're all cosmetic in that game anyway.

I don't mind the ban, just think it won't have much use unless it's done on a larger scale rather than just small countries that big companies don't care about. Which just results in games being pulled. Right now it's just Lost Ark I believe, just worried more will follow.

I can still play Dota 2, Valve just shows the result of what's inside the box already. So it seems Lost Ark just can't be bothered to do a minor change and release here officially. Which again, comes down to Netherlands just being left behind because we're too small.