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DUNE Community |OT| Fear is the Mind-Killer
- Thread starter luca
- Start date
- Spoiler Entertainment OT
I see you two may have different ideas about the word. But....
the jihad in Paul's name is not a good thing. It is horrible. Monstrous. Paul's empire is worse than the one it usurped. He compares himself to the ancient historical emperor "Hitler". So, if we think the word was better in 1965....no? At least, that wasn't Herbert's intention, I think. Even Paul wanted to prevent it, if possible. If we think the word will send the wrong message in 2021....are we sure? Again, Paul is only a hero to his fanatical zealous followers. Ultimately, he is a monster.
It being a good thing or not isn't the problem. It's not about the message it sends, it's that post-9/11 the word carries a lot more weight and emotion, and is used by Islamophobes and racists to mock Muslims and people of Middle Eastern and South Asian descent. Crusade has near enough the same meaning without being racially charged and it won't get a giggle out of morons who don't understand the context.
Nice, thanks. I'll check them out and see how it goes. I'll definitely read Messiah, after that we'll see.
Herbert uses a myriad of Islamic terms:
These are just the ones off the top of my head. Any person with Islamic background will recognize these terms instantly.
- Mahdi - the Islamic concept of a promised man who will fill the world with justice after it was filled with injustice.
- Ramadan - Islamic month of fasting.
- Salat - Prayer that Muslims do 5 times a day.
- Hajj - Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca.
- Shaytan - Islamic word for Satan. It means the cursed one/rejected one.
- Zensunni is a mix of Zen Buddhism and Sunni Islam.
These are just the ones off the top of my head. Any person with Islamic background will recognize these terms instantly.
I stopped at God Emperor. Read the first chapter of Heretics and was like eh, feels like a new series with such a massive time jump and all new characters. I might get back to it later on. Re-reading LOTR for now.
First 4 Dune books are coupled IMO. If you read Dune you really should read Measiah afterward to finish the story. You can stop there and have a satisfying ending (that aligns with where Denis wants to finish his movie trilogy, if he gets to make it), but if you decide to read Children of Dune you should really read God Emperor after that as well. 4th book is linked to the 3rd book just like 2nd book is linked to the original.
From what I can tell, that should probably be where the series ended. But I'll keep an open mind until I read Heretics and Chapterhouse.
I will say that while I really enjoyed Children and God Emperor, both left me somewhat frustrated by what Frank chose to gloss over. There are some things that don't quite make sense with the power levels of these characters but the stories were still satisfying enough.
Nothing beats the original book + Messiah for me though.
I don't remember ever hearing "crusade" in the actual film though. Paul uses the term "holy war" at one point.
I may be wrong; I've only seen it once and that was last week.
That worm ASS thick
But yeah, fuck YouTube, it always comes down to spoiling shit.
I found God Emperor to be the smoothest ending if you want to stop reading. Heretics and Chapterhouse are pretty interesting if you enjoy the BG and to see the ramifications of the golden path, but it gets even crazier than God Emperor haha. There are some things that are just like, what?!
But if you liked all the books then you'll probably enjoy the last 2 at least somewhat because it has some great characters like Darwi Odrade and some neat ideas
edit:
Browsing reddit about Odrade and came across a conversation that kinda changes my mind about the Chapterhouse ending being a terrible cliffhanger into a close to acceptable ending.
Someone quoted Leto's writing at Tabr:
and another replied:
"This is one of the things that burns me most about Brian Herbert's work. I feel like Leto II (basically Frank in my mind) was preaching the beauty of the open-ended, the unforeseen. So I always liked the way the series ended with Chapterhouse. It felt open and wild and human. Then Brian came along..."
And I really like that interpretation even though it is more providing your own end rather than a finished work.
Someone quoted Leto's writing at Tabr:
"I believe he was addressing her (personally) directly at Tabr:
"A REVEREND MOTHER WILL READ MY WORDS!
I BEQUEATH TO YOU MY FEAR AND LONELINESS. TO YOU I GIVE THE CERTAINTY THAT THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE BENE GESSERIT WILL MEET THE SAME FATE AS ALL OTHER BODIES AND ALL OTHER SOULS.
WHAT IS SURVIVAL IF YOU DO NOT SURVIVE WHOLE? ASK THE BENE TLEILAX THAT! WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE? MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!"
WHY DID YOUR SISTERHOOD NOT BUILD THE GOLDEN PATH? YOU KNEW THE NECESSITY. YOUR FAILURE CONDEMNED ME, THE GOD EMPEROR, TO MILLENNIA OF PERSONAL DESPAIR."'
"A REVEREND MOTHER WILL READ MY WORDS!
I BEQUEATH TO YOU MY FEAR AND LONELINESS. TO YOU I GIVE THE CERTAINTY THAT THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE BENE GESSERIT WILL MEET THE SAME FATE AS ALL OTHER BODIES AND ALL OTHER SOULS.
WHAT IS SURVIVAL IF YOU DO NOT SURVIVE WHOLE? ASK THE BENE TLEILAX THAT! WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE? MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!"
WHY DID YOUR SISTERHOOD NOT BUILD THE GOLDEN PATH? YOU KNEW THE NECESSITY. YOUR FAILURE CONDEMNED ME, THE GOD EMPEROR, TO MILLENNIA OF PERSONAL DESPAIR."'
and another replied:
"This is one of the things that burns me most about Brian Herbert's work. I feel like Leto II (basically Frank in my mind) was preaching the beauty of the open-ended, the unforeseen. So I always liked the way the series ended with Chapterhouse. It felt open and wild and human. Then Brian came along..."
And I really like that interpretation even though it is more providing your own end rather than a finished work.
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User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing Concerns Around Representation
The Fremen are not Arabs. The Arab people are among their several very, very distant ancestors, and their culture is a hodgepodge of multiple cultures and religious movements. We're talking about a mixed culture that has survived, separately from Earth, for thousands of years. For their words to be pronounced like they are today is absolute nonsense. Heck, we're less than 2000 years separated from the Roman Empire, and we have no way of truly knowing how Latin was spoken back then, despite the language still being taught and used.
Your expectations are unreasonable if you want the Fremen to be a perfect replica of modern Arab culture and language or even physical appearance.
Come on, don't make grand sweeping statements based on the trailer alone. "Jihad" isn't replaced with "crusade" in this movie. Both words are used in the book, after all. The movie doesn't use the word "jihad," however, at least from what I can remember. The word is instead replaced with "holy war."
The thing is - the freeman are very much based on Arabs. Their words are mostly arabic. Their religion is heavily tied to ideas and thematics of Islam. It is not unreasonable to expect some shred of Islamic/Arabic identity to be in the film.
Arabic is already 1500+ years old and our words are very much similar and Fusha Arabic has been entirely preserved. Arabs know how Arabs spoke 1500 years ago. Lisan al ghaib is arabic, mehdi is arabic - madi is not mehdi. Why would the freeman speak with arabic words but pronounce them like non-Arabs?
Im not even arguing that all freeman should be Arab - but not even one? Not one main side character? Its honestly a joke since there are a plethora of Arab actors.
This article does a better job explaing my dissatisfaction: Why Arab and Islamic representation matters
Yeah I was like oh a 15 second preview, then I realized it's a 1:30 scene 👀
That's not entirely accurate. Human society in general is a mix of many cultural influences by that point. Islamic/Arabic identity is a big part of it. Consider that the ruler of the known universe is the Pradishah Emperor Shaddam IV.
I don't know if they touch on this in the movie, but most of what you probability consider the Arabic aspects of the Fremen religion was seeded on Arakkis by Bene Gesserit missionaries thousands of years ago. They had a program called the Missionaria Protectiva where they spread different myths on different planets in case a Bene Gesserit is ever stranded there in the future and needs the support of the people. Multiple times in the book Jessica basically sighs internally about having to play along with the charade. The entire "prophecy" is all just a Bene Gesserit lie. I only bring this up to highlight that the Arabic elements in this world didn't necessarily come from the Fremen, but rather human society at large.
Also the word they are using is "mahdi" and not "mehdi," which might explain the different in pronunciation. Also it's nearly 22,000 years in the future!
I do agree that there should at least be some Arab representation in the movie, though. I'm kinda surprised to hear that there isn't any. Dune as a whole was a very islamophillic work.
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Yeah they talk about how the prophecy was setup by the Bene Gesserit in the film
I agree that the lack of Arab representation in the movie is disappointing, but there is terminology taken from different languages and cultures in Dune and it isn't always intended to be used the same way as it is in its normal (current) context. A lot of other words as well are adapted from different languages rather than simply being taken as they are directly. Language evolves and changes and terminology can bleed between more than one language (the existence of Spanglish for example).
LOL I saw another whole ass scene in a YouTube add. In the next 2 weeks I might have seen the whole movie. 🤣🤣
It's not out until the 29th. They couldn't even beat Dune into theaters.
Am I the only one that sees Fremen Michael Cera?
"It is time to call the Worm!"
I saw this Friday and I was pretty pleasantly surprised. I'm not a huge Villeneuve fanboy (Sicario would be an exception), and I tend not to like blockbuster cinema, but this was consistently interesting to look at and held my attention, for sure.
The visuals reminded me of a low-resolution '90s 3d videogame, not in a bad way.
The only issue is that it's half a movie, but it seems like a second film is inevitable, so in the long run it should be held as a classic of the genre, I think.
The visuals reminded me of a low-resolution '90s 3d videogame, not in a bad way.
The only issue is that it's half a movie, but it seems like a second film is inevitable, so in the long run it should be held as a classic of the genre, I think.
Saw this yesterday and well, it is an obviously impressive movie but it's so deliberately slow and it's not even a full story, it's half. They don't even hide it, they made a long half movie and called it a day. Reminded me to The Hobbit, albeit not as bad, but still, same concept.
My only other issue is the actor who plays Paul, he's just the worst, ugh.
Still, great movie, gorgeous and interesting.
My only other issue is the actor who plays Paul, he's just the worst, ugh.
Still, great movie, gorgeous and interesting.
Also saw it yesterday and was kinda disappointed. BR2049 is one of my all time favorite movies, so I have nothing against slow burns but Dune felt... barren. Despite gorgeous visuals and a great cast I just wasn't feeling it. I witnessed what was happening on screen, yet it all left me cold. It felt detached and soulless at times. From a technical and directorial standpoint it is great. From an emotional (at least for me) not so much.
Yes the movie lacks emotions.Except for Jessica.But maybe it was a choice.
but for me i think it's better than BR2049 (wich was an ok Sci Fi movie,but a bad Blade Runner sequel imo).
Curious to see how it will perform in USA,because the final trailer will maybe give a false impression of what the film really is.
They shouldn't have removed the 'who was the traitor?' storyline. In the books, that whole conspiracy really defines certain dynamics between characters.
In the movie it's just suddenly 'Oh it was Yueh, ok'.
maybe it was cut in the editing process.
Denis doesn't usually do Director's Cut,but maybe we will have a longer movie in a blu-ray edition...
we know that scenes that were shot are not in the film.
For sure the Arrakeen section of the book suffered the most in this adaptation, in terms of being gutted. I was fine with most of it being condensed, though I would have liked to see
the dinner scene
Would be cool. Lets hope so, but yeah, according to Villeneuve himself:
Yeah that's a great part in the book but I can kinda understand why it wasnt in the movie; you would need to introduce quite some extra characters to make that work. It's one of the most 'political' parts in the book as well, with the 'locals' trying to assert a type of dominance (the banker, the stillsuit manufacturer, the smuggler, etc) with also non-verbal dialogue going on (signaling between characters). I would have loved to see it but it would probably be too much for non-readers.
If he gets to do Part II, I'm sure the optimal way to view both will be as 1 long film. I haven't seen it yet but I understand how the first half might feel a bit emotionless. The second half of the book is when most of that stuff comes to fruition.
Shame about the dinner scene being cut, but I get it. Most of that was internal monologue. It probably would've translated to film very poorly. Though perhaps I'm selling the writers short, maybe they could've conveyed everything through new dialogue. Shame either way.
Shame about the dinner scene being cut, but I get it. Most of that was internal monologue. It probably would've translated to film very poorly. Though perhaps I'm selling the writers short, maybe they could've conveyed everything through new dialogue. Shame either way.
The dinner scene also contains half a dozen characters with very particular societal roles (a stillsuit manufacturer whom also brought his daughter that is carefully trying to lure Paul into a sex trap etc.) that you never read about again. That combined with the heavy inner monologue means everything about it practically would have to change for a movie adaptation.
Releasing last in the US might actually be a benefit. They've had a ton of time to push marketing for the movie as much as they can and getting the trailers in front of all these other movies like Venom, Bond and Shang-Chi could possibly have had a big effect.
Think about it. Zoomers turning up for Venom, they see a movie with the kid from Call Me By Your Name, Khal Drogo, MJ, Thanos, Drax and Poe Dameron, looking a little Star Warsy with a big special effects budget. It's a probably had a big impact on the movie's visibility.
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I just wish China was before US, even if only a week.
Releasing last in the US might actually be a benefit. They've had a ton of time to push marketing for the movie as much as they can and getting the trailers in front of all these other movies like Venom, Bond and Shang-Chi could possibly have had a big effect.
Think about it. Zoomers turning up for Venom, they see a movie with the kid from Call Me By Your Name, Khal Drogo, MJ, Thanos, Drax and Poe Dameron, looking a little Star Warsy with a big special effects budget. It's a probably had a big impact on the movie's visibility.
I haven't seen it but do you mean the rest of the characters find out early that that person is the traitor? The reader knows nearly as soon as we know that there's a traitor who it is.
No I refer to the whole storyline of Hawat suspecting Jessica (and the consequences that that has between various characters and their relationships), all that is gone.
Watched the Lynch movie for the first time last night. Actually quite enjoyed it. Amazing production design and fun performances from the Baron + Sting.
Second half gets super super rushed though, I didn't buy into the romance at all, and you can tell it was hacked up in post. The voiceover thoughts in particular feels like a studio mandate.
Kinda dizzy from the exposition vomit of names and places though, which is one of my least favourite things about fantasy films in general. Hoping the Villeneuve film has a better go of it.
Second half gets super super rushed though, I didn't buy into the romance at all, and you can tell it was hacked up in post. The voiceover thoughts in particular feels like a studio mandate.
Kinda dizzy from the exposition vomit of names and places though, which is one of my least favourite things about fantasy films in general. Hoping the Villeneuve film has a better go of it.
so I'm getting through more of the book. is it just me or did the harkonnen attack and leto's kidnapping feel like they came out of nowhere so shortly after the dinner party? idk all of that happened fast as fuck somehow even though the book had been a slow build up to that point?
anyway, the book is actually getting more and more exciting now that paul and jessica are with the fremen.
anyway, the book is actually getting more and more exciting now that paul and jessica are with the fremen.
I'm reading the book right now too (nearing the end of book 1) and they cut out the traitor subplot for the movie? Wow. I can't even imagine that considering it is probably the sole narrative thrust of the entire story so far. The rest is just world building and set up for the characters. I guess it does make sense though as that allows for the story to focus in much more on Paul.
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That is the single reason we already had this thread for 1.5 months now because of the big difference 22 of Oct it comes out in the USA.