Well let's just say they were preparing to terraform, because in book 1 they're nowhere near that, just hoarding water :P
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DUNE Community |OT| Fear is the Mind-Killer
- Thread starter luca
- Start date
- Spoiler Entertainment OT
I always kind of imagined the Sardaukar as a kind of visual counterpoint to the Fremen. The Fremen were often ultra utilitarian and pragmatic in their dress, actions and so on. I imagine the Sardaukar as almost the exact opposite. Instead of sleek form fitting still suits, they'd be outfitted in power armor similar to something like the Space Marines from WH 40K. Where the Fremen were almost dancerlike with their motions the Sardaukar would be like barbarians in their movements and actions, hacking and slashing, stomping and slaughtering. They aren't really described in detail in the books outside of the martial skill and the reputation they have across the galaxy.
There weren't really any tools (for fighting), except in the Lynch movie.
Although the Fremen were very tough and fought with wild abandon in battle, Jessica and Paul were much more calculating and controlled, thanks to BG, Duncan, etc.
Paul and Jessica could, essentially, make the Fremen more efficient and strategic fighters.
That's how I read it, anyway.
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Where I mixed it up was that the Atreides trained the Fremen in the weirding way, which was only what happened in the movie. It's one of the major things they changed.
I actually imagined these Sardaukars to be in literal prisons lol, but it makes sense that it's just a metaphor for how harsh their environment and conditions were on the planet.
In a way the Emperor really creates his own downfall by being so paranoid about Leto's forces.
I actually imagined these Sardaukars to be in literal prisons lol, but it makes sense that it's just a metaphor for how harsh their environment and conditions were on the planet.
In a way the Emperor really creates his own downfall by being so paranoid about Leto's forces.
It happens in the book too. It's just that the "weirding way" isn't singing into weird guns in the book.
I believe the exact quote is that there are small patches of green in the supposedly absolutely lethal southern wastes, but yes - it's the very very first stages of terraforming, with centuries still to go. Until Leto II gets involved of course... ;-)
I always saw the Weirding Way as a way to utilize your bodies abilities to their fullest through intense mind-body exercises to the point you could consciously control or at least affect every aspect of your physiology to near magical levels of ability. I believe its also related or tied to The Voice though its been a while so I probably need a re-read to refresh myself.
Eh even in Messiah and Children there's a good start, with the qanats and whatnot
Absolutely. The Emperor creates his own downfall because he cannot perceive of Leto not being a threat. He views everything through the lense of court politics. The irony is of course that it was the Harkonnens who were plotting against him, not the Atreides.
This is what the Bene Gesserits do with their bodies, and yes, it is tied in to the Weirding Way.
Stilgar wants that upgrade, after witnessing Jessica perform.
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Did the Fremen themselves use the weirding way in that final attack? I only have a very vague recollection of that final third of the book. I just remember that Stilgar and the Fremen wanted to learn Jessica and Paul's ways after they saw what they could do. So it makes sense that they teached them, and the Fremen would use their techniques in battle.
I absolutely dread those weirding modules in the movie lol.
Stilgar is one of those characters I hope the new film does justice to. He doesn't have the biggest role in the first novel but seeing him go from proud noble independent man of the desert planet to fanatical kneeling zealot at Paul's feet is one of the more haunting pieces of imagery from the novel. I really hope the film can capture this descent.
The Fremen are bordering on super human by the very nature of their evolutionary adaptations to living in such a brutal and unforgiving place for thousands of years. They were on or beyond the Sardaukar at their prime and introducing BG teachings and methods just made them even greater warriors as it aided their already incredible potential for battle.
Yep, the final assault has weirding way practicing Fremen riding worms
I wonder if Villeneuve will show us the transition from Caladan to Arrakis. I was so confused listening the book the first time because I thought I somehow missed a chapter.
Turned out there never was a scene written for that transition.
Turned out there never was a scene written for that transition.
What do you mean?
I distinctly remember Paul on the highligner looking out of the port holes during the move.
The Fremen would have always won eventually and they were playing the long game. The 1992 "adventure" game got it right as it put their geoengineering desire into the forefront. On the left, "the dream becomes reality":
Dune´s natives were shafted from all sides. The rest of humanity and the ruling class needed them to live under inhospitable conditions for the spice to flow.
They didn´t even try to form a connection with the Fremen and wrote them off as savages. We then enter our "heroic" dynasty that does assimilate when there is essentially no other way to go on but they appropriated their culture for their own means of coming back on top again and to get revenge. Our "white savior", created through eugenics and his parent's stray will to carve their own destiny/house (he needed to be a girl as the Kwisatz Haderach had to come in the generation thereafter which did happen in a way) plays them like a damn fiddle with the help of his mother. Their culture is already disappearing in the 3rd act of Dune 1 and is not only mostly gone in Dune 2. The image of the Fremen that Paul ends up creating turns into the worst horror that humanity endured within his lifetime.
House Atreides was also played by both Vladimir and the Emperor and... Dune 1 is about a proxy war, never forget that, and the battleground happens to be the biggest shit heap in the known universe if it wasn´t for the water of life. Atomics are even used on it in book 2 so I ain´t too sure how much it is truly worth and you can create a new Dune as the sequels proved.
dune.fandom.com
Not only is Paul on his second Holy War (a kind of colonization mission but of often already highly "civilized" planets) only a decade and a half after Dune 1 end, but he also oversees this: According to Muad'Dib, conservative estimates ranked the Jihad's casualties as 61 billion lives, the sterilization of ninety planets, and the "demoralization" of five hundred additional worlds. Furthermore, 40 different religions were wiped out, along with their followers.
Following Muad'Dib is same thinking. It is the death of culture. A universe in his image leads to a galaxy-wide genocide. He can´t just have Dune, he needs it ALL. Till he reaches his lowest point and begins to wage war on what he created and himself but even that crusade is twisted in its own ways.
Sieg Heil Mein Führer! - ca. 23193 AD
Who House Atreides is based on:
en.wikipedia.org
Why Dune is the antithesis of (white) savior narratives and a condemnation of colonialism or even mono-culture in someone else's words:
medium.com
Dune 2 - 4 are already in the first book. The blueprint and all the colors are there, Hebert only had to put it all on the page.
Even the first mini understood who the ruling class stood for as seen below. It´s not more or less "accurate" than 1984 film but the ending is more accurate and the point of the story is thus less muddled. And note the house motto (a constant and the eagle is there for a reason) under Duke Leto:
Dune 2000´s director´s cut (boobs = DC):
www.youtube.com
www.youtube.com
Children of Dune 2003 (ep 1 is Messiah) is also on YT. There is only one cut. So it´s 30 min shorter than the DC of Dune 1.
Let´s start posting some art:
www.heavymetal.com
Mine my stuffs from the Variety post and go from there. Let´s find all the Dune art by Wojciech Kazimierz for example.
Dune´s natives were shafted from all sides. The rest of humanity and the ruling class needed them to live under inhospitable conditions for the spice to flow.
They didn´t even try to form a connection with the Fremen and wrote them off as savages. We then enter our "heroic" dynasty that does assimilate when there is essentially no other way to go on but they appropriated their culture for their own means of coming back on top again and to get revenge. Our "white savior", created through eugenics and his parent's stray will to carve their own destiny/house (he needed to be a girl as the Kwisatz Haderach had to come in the generation thereafter which did happen in a way) plays them like a damn fiddle with the help of his mother. Their culture is already disappearing in the 3rd act of Dune 1 and is not only mostly gone in Dune 2. The image of the Fremen that Paul ends up creating turns into the worst horror that humanity endured within his lifetime.
House Atreides was also played by both Vladimir and the Emperor and... Dune 1 is about a proxy war, never forget that, and the battleground happens to be the biggest shit heap in the known universe if it wasn´t for the water of life. Atomics are even used on it in book 2 so I ain´t too sure how much it is truly worth and you can create a new Dune as the sequels proved.
Muad'Dib's Jihad
Muad'Dib's Jihad (10196 AG - 10208 AG), also known as Paul's Jihad, was an event that occurred throughout the Known Universe after the rise of Paul-Muad'Dib and his rise to Emperor of the Imperium. After the defeat of Shaddam IV and the Imperial Forces on the Plain of Arrakeen, in 10193 AG, the...
dune.fandom.com
Following Muad'Dib is same thinking. It is the death of culture. A universe in his image leads to a galaxy-wide genocide. He can´t just have Dune, he needs it ALL. Till he reaches his lowest point and begins to wage war on what he created and himself but even that crusade is twisted in its own ways.
Sieg Heil Mein Führer! - ca. 23193 AD
"My brother comes now," Alia said. "Even an Emperor may tremble before Muad'Dib, for he has the strength of righteousness and heaven smiles upon him."
"Muad'dib rules everywhere," he said. "Arrakis is not my destination," she insisted. "Arrakis is the destination of everyone," he said."
"There is no measuring Muad'Dib's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery. Can you say he did this out of a sense of justice? Whose justice, then? Remember, we speak now of the Muad'Dib who ordered battle drums made from his enemies' skins, the Muad'Dib who denied the conventions of his ducal past with a wave of the hand, saying merely:
'I am the Kwisatz Haderach. That is reason enough."
See, even that game got it:"Muad'dib rules everywhere," he said. "Arrakis is not my destination," she insisted. "Arrakis is the destination of everyone," he said."
"There is no measuring Muad'Dib's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery. Can you say he did this out of a sense of justice? Whose justice, then? Remember, we speak now of the Muad'Dib who ordered battle drums made from his enemies' skins, the Muad'Dib who denied the conventions of his ducal past with a wave of the hand, saying merely:
'I am the Kwisatz Haderach. That is reason enough."
Religion, too, is a weapon. What manner of weapon is religion when it becomes the government?
Who House Atreides is based on:
Atreus - Wikipedia
La, La, La: Oppression of the Fremen in Dune
How the real heroes of Dune consistently get the short end of the stick.
medium.com
Dune 2 - 4 are already in the first book. The blueprint and all the colors are there, Hebert only had to put it all on the page.
Even the first mini understood who the ruling class stood for as seen below. It´s not more or less "accurate" than 1984 film but the ending is more accurate and the point of the story is thus less muddled. And note the house motto (a constant and the eagle is there for a reason) under Duke Leto:
Dune 2000´s director´s cut (boobs = DC):
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com
Let´s start posting some art:
Moebius Concept Art for Jodorowsky's 'Dune' Characters
Moebius aka Jean Giraud designed these characters as concept art for the Dune film that Alejandro Jodorowsky never had a chance to make. The mid-'70s adaptation of Frank Herbert's novel would have featured Orson Welles, Salvador Dali, and Mick Jagger.
www.heavymetal.com
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It's before the move, when the Atreides lighters are first docking on the Highliner. The actual movement of the Highliner isn't seen, and there's no disembarking at Arrakis. The very next scene begins with Jessica unpacking boxes in Arrakeen, and they've already been on planet for a few days. There's definitely a bit of a jump there.
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It's not like anything happens. They're just travelling through space for a while to get to Arrakis. I guess they could show it to remind us we're in a vast galaxy and for progress-of-time, and to transition from them leaving Caladan into the next scene on Arrakis where Jessica unpacks and meets the Shadout Mapes.
One thing I often forget is that the sky is black in the afternoon.
One thing I often forget is that the sky is black in the afternoon.
You see the Highliners fade from Caladan space as the Guild Navigators transition them to Arrakis in the Lynch film.
I always thought that literal jump was very effective. it's such a counterpoint to what you'd expect from sci-fi space travel. totally silent as well.
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Somebody explain the space travel and folding space. Are ships flying normally through space, or do they "warp" out and into spaces on long distances? I've gone back and forth while imagining it. Sometimes I imagine it as just normal space travel (cause the Duke says their trip will take a while), and the guild navigators folding space in their vision to find safe passage. Other times I imagine space literally folding so ships disappears from one space and appears in another.
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Yeah, this. So on long distances they fold space - warping out and into space, and on short distances they just fly normally (like a guild carrier ship from the surface to a Heighliner). I think there's ships with old FTL engines to travel fast within a single star system. And ships like Heighliners with Holtzmann engines making foldspace / interstellar travel possible.
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I don't remember any training that Paul imparted on the Fremen. They were always amazing warriors and I think they actually impart more of their fighting style on him than the other way around. All Paul really does is unite them as a large army where before they were in small pockets.
Somebody explain the space travel and folding space. Are ships flying normally through space, or do they "warp" out and into spaces on long distances? I've gone back and forth while imagining it. Sometimes I imagine it as just normal space travel (cause the Duke says their trip will take a while), and the guild navigators folding space in their vision to find safe passage. Other times I imagine space literally folding so ships disappears from one space and appears in another.
They're doing a variant of Einstein Rosen bridge (hyperspace tunnel between two disparate locations) with added conceit of prescience required to navigate through the compressed time - the Navigators have to do impossible math AND effectively predict obstacles without violating causality. It works as narrative logic but I don't think it was intended to solve the science in the Arthur C Clarke sense. What is cool is using the visual metaphor of folding a map to bring two distant compass points close together. "A Guild Navigator just folded space from Ix."
Bottom is Caladan, top is Arrakis. The vertical tunnel would contain navigational hazards that may be caused by mass and energy intruding somehow from regular space. The Guild Navigators have extremely limited prescience and can adjust the route to avoid collisions before they happen.
If you took the long route it would be vast multiples longer - basically impossible to do on human timescales even at light speed. It is based on a real scientific principle but even Star Trek takes a more scientific approach.
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Actually, it's both. In the early books, the ships "flew", actually traversing the distance between stars. The navigators were just that... navigators, plotting the ship's course. They used their limited prescience (nowhere near as powerful as what Paul, Alia, or especially Leto II could do) to look forward along their path and make course adjustments to avoid catastrophic collisions and such. But the journey did take time, although it was never explained just how that was done.
If memory serves, the idea of "foldspace" wasn't introduced until the no-ships around Heretics and Chapterhouse. While he implied that the no-ships could travel this way, I don't think he ever specifically stated that the Guild navigators could do it.
If memory serves, the idea of "foldspace" wasn't introduced until the no-ships around Heretics and Chapterhouse. While he implied that the no-ships could travel this way, I don't think he ever specifically stated that the Guild navigators could do it.
I have to revisit the novel, but I don't recall passages describing the Heighliners traversing distances at sub-light speeds. The corvettes and landing craft were described as traditional propulsion spacecraft but the big tubes simply waited parked in orbit until they were loaded/unloaded and the Navigator would precience-spacefold it to the new location in the universe.
Makes for some interesting possibilities. Like... let's go have lunch in Kaitain, tea in Ix and dinner in Caladan on the same day!
Makes for some interesting possibilities. Like... let's go have lunch in Kaitain, tea in Ix and dinner in Caladan on the same day!
I never had the impression it was sub-light. Given the distances, they're probably traveling at thousands, maybe millions, of times the speed of light. But they're still traveling.
What I'm saying is that the original book never mentions the word "fold". Or "bridge", or anything else that would imply travel via wormhole.
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Are Caladan and Arrakis in different planetary systems?
Because I'm thinking it would take thousands of years even travelling at faster than light speeds, which is why ships with the old FTL engine equipped was only used for travel within a single system. And used a Heighliner equipped with the Holtzman engine to do interstellar travel, folding space to get from one system to another much faster.
Because I'm thinking it would take thousands of years even travelling at faster than light speeds, which is why ships with the old FTL engine equipped was only used for travel within a single system. And used a Heighliner equipped with the Holtzman engine to do interstellar travel, folding space to get from one system to another much faster.
From Wiki (correct me if not credible):
Caladan is located In Delta Pavonis, ~20 light years away from Old Earth.
Arrakis is in Alpha Carinae or Canopus system. ~313 light years from Old Earth.
Caladan is located In Delta Pavonis, ~20 light years away from Old Earth.
Arrakis is in Alpha Carinae or Canopus system. ~313 light years from Old Earth.
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So it would take years travelling from Caladan to Arrakis at faster-than-light speed. Which is why the Atreides boards a Heighliner which is equipped with a Holtzman engine and a Guild navigator to fold space and navigate it, so they can get from their own planetary system to the other planetary system much faster.
Jedi2016 is right though that foldspace isn't mentioned until Heretics of Dune:
It's my understanding that the Heighliners were equipped with the Holtzman engine in 10191. The Holtzman Effect theory was discovered during the Butlerian Jihad. And the Holtzman Effect is already used in shields, suspensors and glowglobes in that year.
Jedi2016 is right though that foldspace isn't mentioned until Heretics of Dune:
It's my understanding that the Heighliners were equipped with the Holtzman engine in 10191. The Holtzman Effect theory was discovered during the Butlerian Jihad. And the Holtzman Effect is already used in shields, suspensors and glowglobes in that year.
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from Wiki:
"The effect is used in this case to fold space at the quantum level, allowing the Spacing Guild's heighliner ships to instantaneously travel far distances across space without actually moving at all. However, the chaotic and seemingly non-deterministic quantum nature of "foldspace" requires at least limited prescience on the part of the human navigator; otherwise the absurdly complex mathematics involved in producing reliable physical projections of such events would only be possible with advanced computers, which are strictly prohibited because of mankind's crusade against thinking machines, the Butlerian Jihad. To this effect, the Guild produces melange-saturated Navigators who intuitively "see paths through foldspace" in this way."
You might be thinking of the no-ship they use in Heretics and Chapterhouse?
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To any new readers who wants the whole series or half of it, Ace are releasing boxed sets on August 25:
6-book boxed set: Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse: Dune (Amazon US)
3-book boxed set: Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune (Amazon US)
6-book boxed set: Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse: Dune (Amazon UK)
3-book boxed set: Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune (Amazon UK)
And here I'm still waiting for Gollancz to release 'The Great Second Trilogy' in one hardback, and the missing interrogation chapter to Dune Messiah.
6-book boxed set: Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse: Dune (Amazon US)
3-book boxed set: Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune (Amazon US)
6-book boxed set: Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse: Dune (Amazon UK)
3-book boxed set: Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune (Amazon UK)
And here I'm still waiting for Gollancz to release 'The Great Second Trilogy' in one hardback, and the missing interrogation chapter to Dune Messiah.
Yeah, but where is all this in the BOOK? The book never mentions any of this.
I don't remember any training that Paul imparted on the Fremen. They were always amazing warriors and I think they actually impart more of their fighting style on him than the other way around. All Paul really does is unite them as a large army where before they were in small pockets.
Paul imparted strategy and tactics. The total control of mind and body applied to fighting is what impressed them and let them keep Jessica and Paul instead of killing them. The book doesn't go into specifics, but it's implied simply because that's why Stilgar saved them in the first place.
Holy shit, I hadn't even realized that "foldspace" wasn't mentioned early on, and I've read these books countless times. Though I disagree with you on one point. I assume the new info on foldspace is also a retcon, and that is how the Guild travelled as well, even in the earlier books. In God Emperor, there was talk of creating a new machine (a computer) that could do a navigator's job and break the Guild monopoly, not a foldspace engine.
Frank has done such casual retcons and retroactive additions before.
Series spoilers follow:
For example, in Dune, Alia was preborn because she received all the passed-on other memories from the ritual. By Children of Dune (if not Messiah), these memories are retconned to be ancestral, not just the ritual collection, and she carries men, not just women. This makes her as special as the twins, even though her manner of being pre-born was completely different from the twins. In fact, the BG didn't account for or expect this. That is, that the planned mother of their Kwisatz Haderach could actually break the rules and attain male ancestral memories.
Scytale is another example, although this can be explained by the passage of time, and not a retcon. He was a very clever Face Dancer in Messiah, then a non-Face-Dancer master in Chapterhouse. In fact, by the second half of the books, face dancers are dumb (by Dune universe standards) slaves.
There are also some Duncan ghola memories of Paul that do not make any sense given the events of Dune. I can't remember specifics right now, but I'm talking about either Hayt or the God Emperor ghola, not the one from the last two books.
The Golden Path itself is retroactively added in. In Messiah, Paul is doing what he can to avoid becoming a Tleilax puppet, and to get out of the existence that he hates. The task that Leto II takes up is not mentioned as something Paul ever saw (or chickened out of), until Children of Dune.
Scytale is another example, although this can be explained by the passage of time, and not a retcon. He was a very clever Face Dancer in Messiah, then a non-Face-Dancer master in Chapterhouse. In fact, by the second half of the books, face dancers are dumb (by Dune universe standards) slaves.
There are also some Duncan ghola memories of Paul that do not make any sense given the events of Dune. I can't remember specifics right now, but I'm talking about either Hayt or the God Emperor ghola, not the one from the last two books.
The Golden Path itself is retroactively added in. In Messiah, Paul is doing what he can to avoid becoming a Tleilax puppet, and to get out of the existence that he hates. The task that Leto II takes up is not mentioned as something Paul ever saw (or chickened out of), until Children of Dune.
It is from the later novels; the first mostly explains that the Spacing Guild likes to keep its secrets. But the reveal of Navigators as spice-drenched mutations is in, I think, Messiah?
I believe the Golden Path is kind of a retcon in the third book where Paul saw the Golden Path but didn't have the conviction to follow it whereas Leto II did. There is a great part in the book where Leto II's prescience is showing him a futures where he was a normal man with a family who didn't follow the Golden Path and he has to steel himself to the fact he'll never truly be able to be a normal happy person living a regular life because there is something far far far more important than a single man's happiness.
Yes, Messiah.
Apparently the "Guildsmen" in the first book aren't full Navigators. A slight retcon, perhaps.
Yeah, but it makes me wonder where the idea of foldspace came from. Where did the Lynch film get the idea? Was it something already in writing in one of the later books by then? Or did Herbert nick it from the film?
Case in point: While Herbert had seen illustrations of the worms showing the three-lobed mouth early on, and agreed that's what the worms looked like, he never explicitly mentioned it in print until after the film. Thank heavens he never tried to implement anything else like the weirding modules.. lol.
Case in point: While Herbert had seen illustrations of the worms showing the three-lobed mouth early on, and agreed that's what the worms looked like, he never explicitly mentioned it in print until after the film. Thank heavens he never tried to implement anything else like the weirding modules.. lol.
The film came out in 1984. Which was the first book to mention foldspace?
I watched Lynchs Dune as a kid and liked it, never got the hate.
now I watched it again after 20 years and I still like it a lot. the art design is spectacular. the movie feels rushed after the fall or house artrides but I still think it's a classic.
I also ordered a few books, I'm ready to dive into that universe.
now I watched it again after 20 years and I still like it a lot. the art design is spectacular. the movie feels rushed after the fall or house artrides but I still think it's a classic.
I also ordered a few books, I'm ready to dive into that universe.
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THR just released an interview with David Lynch. He has no interest in Denis Villeneuve's movie.
www.hollywoodreporter.com
How I’m Living Now: David Lynch, Director
In The Hollywood Reporter's "How I'm Living" Series, director David Lynch discusses how he's been productive in quarantine, working on various art projects for what he anticipates will be the long haul.
www.hollywoodreporter.com
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Yeah, I'm not surprised. It's like trying to talk to David Fincher about Alien 3. They don't want to be reminded.. hehe.
THR just released an interview with David Lynch. He has no interest in Denis Villeneuve's movie.
How I’m Living Now: David Lynch, Director
In The Hollywood Reporter's "How I'm Living" Series, director David Lynch discusses how he's been productive in quarantine, working on various art projects for what he anticipates will be the long haul.
Lynch has been incredibly vocal about how much he hated what went down with Dune. I'm pretty sure its one of the reasons he never made another big movie ever again.
In the far future, humans have evolved to have more complex hands that can fold in on themselves along the carpals. This adaptation was made to the human genome by the Bene Gesserit to allow for more complex hand-talking.