The whole future sight thing is interesting especially as the books progressed. One of my favorite moments is a pretty brief one where Leto II is having prescient visions of possible futures where he is living a normal life, marries, has children and dies like any other person. The incredible appeal of such a mundane but happy and earnest life really calls to him but he shuns it and steals himself as he know's someone has to start humanity on the Golden Path after his father couldn't.
idk I think future sight and how you can influence it feels pretty grey in the books. Paul is defeatist towards it, thinks that's how it is and he kinda gives up.
The sight's also not unlimited. Alia described it pretty well in Dune Messiah. Basically, normal people are in a valley while Paul and Alia were on the mountaintops, but still limited by the horizon.
Do you guys think that Leto's prescience was stronger than Paul's? It seems that Leto could see further than Paul could, but we never saw how far ahead Paul could actually see.
The sight's also not unlimited. Alia described it pretty well in Dune Messiah. Basically, normal people are in a valley while Paul and Alia were on the mountaintops, but still limited by the horizon.
Do you guys think that Leto's prescience was stronger than Paul's? It seems that Leto could see further than Paul could, but we never saw how far ahead Paul could actually see.
I think The Tyrant's prescience worked in a different way - certainly he used it differently, by restricting 'long views' e.g. how often he looked to see the GP, but making use of it tactically in the case of predicting assassination attempts. I mean Paul saw both the disaster of Ix and how to solve it through the GP, so I don't think his vision was weaker.
Paul developed a dependency on it for everything, and found himself unable to ge surprised- remember Leto II's comment about surprises? BUT he is also humanity's first true 'long term planner'.
I think Leto's time-safaris are where he truly used his time-sense faculty, and in doing so Leto is a representation of a Hegelian ideal, able to see & feel an near-infinite well of experience.
Duncan is invisible to prescience, as stated. The keep on Gammu wasn't No-shielded or anything.
Duncan didn't overcome the seduction. He just had some technique of his own. The Tleilaxu gave him this talent. They learned about such techniques from returned Tleilaxu from the Scattering, and developed their own to counter-ensnare the whores.
Keep in mind that these weirdos from the Scattering had been returning for at least a century, so there was time to set this all up. There were several failed/assassinated Duncans prior to the events in this book.
remember that the Tleilaxu have had contact with their Scattered brethren and how Face Dancers work, and how gholas can be made with many, many things hidden in their genes
Remember - humans as weapons. Think how this particular ghola has been used in the past, by both Tleilaxu and Leto II
I've noticed a lot of photos the crew took during production and from marketing people have been taken down from Instagram. Seems like the production team really want everyone to be as quiet as possible.
I also don't find Chapter House that enticing so far but I'm only some four chapters in. The ecology stuff is the hardest part to read for me but it's manageable. The hierarchy or way you can dethrone the Great Honoured Matre and take the position on yourself seem like such a chaotic thing. They generally seem like chaos lol.
I've noticed a lot of photos the crew took during production and from marketing people have been taken down from Instagram. Seems like the production team really want everyone to be as quiet as possible.
I also don't find Chapter House that enticing so far but I'm only some four chapters in. The ecology stuff is the hardest part to read for me but it's manageable. The hierarchy or way you can dethrone the Great Honoured Matre and take the position on yourself seem like such a chaotic thing. They generally seem like chaos lol.
Yeah, that's kind of the point, though. The Honored Matres are practically the exact opposite of the Bene Gesserit in almost every way. They dominate where the BGs coerce, kill where the BGs negotiate, the list goes on.
Yeah, that's kind of the point, though. The Honored Matres are practically the exact opposite of the Bene Gesserit in almost every way. They dominate where the BGs coerce, kill where the BGs negotiate, the list goes on.
I've noticed a lot of photos the crew took during production and from marketing people have been taken down from Instagram. Seems like the production team really want everyone to be as quiet as possible.
I also don't find Chapter House that enticing so far but I'm only some four chapters in. The ecology stuff is the hardest part to read for me but it's manageable. The hierarchy or way you can dethrone the Great Honoured Matre and take the position on yourself seem like such a chaotic thing. They generally seem like chaos lol.
I hope they don't make the BR2049 mistake of treating everything as a spoiler when it comes to the marketing. At some point you gotta sell people on the movies story.
"It's just a wholly, wholly different thing," said Isaac when EW asked how the movie compares to previous filmed takes on the material. "I couldn't imagine anyone more suited for the tone of the original Frank Herbert novels than Denis. There are some things that are — for lack of a better word — nightmarish about what you see… There's just this kind of brutalist element to it. It's shocking. It's scary. It's very visceral. And I know that definitely between Denis and myself and Chalamet and Rebecca Ferguson as the family unit, we really searched for the emotion of it. I'm beyond myself with excitement. I think it's good to feel cool, unique, and special."
Blade Runner 2049 and Arrival are two of my favorite movies ever. I can't wait to see Villeneuve's take on Dune.
I love Sci-fi but must confess that I never finished the first book (I saw the awful movie). Only recently I learned that there are more books. And I played the games ofcourse, but I don't know if those are canon.
The problem is Paul didn't want to go down the Golden Path, he did a half assed version of it that ended up making things worse but also primed the pump for his son to do what he did.
So I finished Paul of Dune over the holidays and am almost done with Messiah.
I must say I really liked Paul of Dune. I honestly don't know where all the hate comes from. Reading Messiah I can see inconsistencies in characterizations that are kind of jarring, but then again a lot of time has passed and people change.
So I finished Paul of Dune over the holidays and am almost done with Messiah.
I must say I really liked Paul of Dune. I honestly don't know where all the hate comes from. Reading Messiah I can see inconsistencies in characterizations that are kind of jarring, but then again a lot of time has passed and people change.
I haven't read Paul of Dune, but I have read their earlier prequels to Dune, the House trilogy, as I recall it.
Besides the writing being just awful, especially when compared to Frank Herbert, these guys fell into the trap of making insane connections, retcons, easter eggs, and mistakes and inconsistencies that are commonly found in (and ruin) prequels. Just total fanfiction amateur-hour stuff. And we're talking about one of the greatest sci-fi franchises of all time, so it's goddamned jarring, and a shame.
I'm talking about shit on the level of "A prepubescent Anakin Skywalker actually built C-3PO."
I won't spoil the original books for you (and I guess I won't spoil prequels either) but here are some examples that I still remember, to this day, some 20 years later (you can bet I never reread that shit).
-The parentage of an important Dune character is retconned (or they just suck at research). Worse, it's changed to an unrelated-yet-major character in order to get a gasp or something from the reader. It's fucking awful, though (see Anakin--3PO relationship).
-Actually, this is so terrible (the parentage thing above) that I will spoil it after all and talk about the conception and name names.
As we know in Dune, the Baron is actually Jessica's father. Her mother is revealed (by name) in a later Dune book as a previously unmentioned and unimportant-to-the-story Bene Gesserit sister, which is fine, that's how the BG work. In the House prequels, they decided to have the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam be Jessica's mother instead. So, they shrunk the universe by pointlessly connecting two characters (that were already well connected) by blood. It's fucking lazy and stupid and pointless. But it gets worse.
On to the conception. We are treated to a chapter in which Gaius Helen Mohiam goes to the Baron to get impregnated by him, under threat of blackmail. The Baron, pissed at being blackmailed into this, viciously rapes her. As revenge for the vicious rape, Gaius Helen Mohiam unleashes secret vagina poison, during the rape, which infects the Baron and makes him fat. Yes, the Baron was a sexy studly beefcake before getting vagina poisoned by Gaius Helen Mohiam, Jessica's true mother, as he raped her. Never mind that, in Frank's books, the Baron was fat because unlimited self-indulgence was his character. Nope, now it's secret vag poison.
Anyway, the name given in Frank's book for Jessica's mother was handwaved as an alias for Gaius Helen Mohiam. Never mind that, if such an important character were actually the mother of Jessica, then one of the several main characters in Frank's books that have ancestral memories would have probably said something sometime. Especially when the discussion turned to Jessica's mother, and the name was revealed. Or, if such an insane event featuring brutal rape and obesity-inducing-vag-poison had actually occured, you'd think the Baron would say or think something of it when confronted by the Emperor and his truthsayer, Gaius Helen Mohiam. In short, this retcon makes no sense, it doesn't fit. Brian and Kevin don't care, they make vague allusions to "Frank's notes" and then just carry on butchering the lore.
-Technology exists in this trilogy that goes against the Butlerian Jihad, like way against. But who cares, right? I'd say more, but I don't want to spoil Frank's series.
-Technology exists in this trilogy that is not invented until the later Frank Herbert books. And the Harkonnens have it in prototype form (never mind that its invention in Frank's books is driven by a necessity that does not yet exist pre-Dune). And the Harkonnens use this technology in a nefarious plot lifted straight from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. I shit you not.
This is just a taste. I'm sure I could find so much more shit in these books, but I'm sure as hell not going to reread them. I could talk about the Butlerian Jihad trilogy and then Dune 7, but fuck if I don't need a drink or two first.
Anyway, that's why I hate on them, to offer you an example.
This is just a taste. I'm sure I could find so much more shit in these books, but I'm sure as hell not going to reread them. I could talk about the Butlerian Jihad trilogy and then Dune 7, but fuck if I don't need a drink or two first.
I was starting to contemplate doing Dune 7 and 8 - just to "finish" the main series - after I'm done with Chapter House. But I guess I really should just stay way clear of all Brian and Kevin' books.
I read the last two books just to see the general idea of how the series was supposed to end as I have to imagine Brian Herbert was just cribbing his father's notes for those.
I read the last two books just to see the general idea of how the series was supposed to end as I have to imagine Brian Herbert was just cribbing his father's notes for those.
I read the last two books just to see the general idea of how the series was supposed to end as I have to imagine Brian Herbert was just cribbing his father's notes for those.
When I went through the series I got the notion most Dune fans call BS on the notes talk. I never did read the post Frank books, though I entertained the idea for a bit.
Honestly thought the series ended fine. I've never needed absolute closure though and Herbert never seemed like the sort that had some absolute end in mind. He played with concepts and ideas as they came up.
-Technology exists in this trilogy that is not invented until the later Frank Herbert books. And the Harkonnens have it in prototype form (never mind that its invention in Frank's books is driven by a necessity that does not yet exist pre-Dune). And the Harkonnens use this technology in a nefarious plot lifted straight from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. I shit you not.
I'm guessing it's about the no-globe? While it's true that the Harkonnens did have an early prototype mentioned in Heretics, you're correct in that it wasn't built until well into the God Emperor's reign.
I'm guessing it's about the no-globe? While it's true that the Harkonnens did have an early prototype mentioned in Heretics, you're correct in that it wasn't built until well into the God Emperor's reign.
Again, this is from memory 20 years ago. I remember rolling my eyes out of my head, even then (at 13).
It's no-ship tech. 2000-3000 years before it's invention (necessitated by the Tyrant). Maybe more like a cloaking device, but it was used around the Guild, so it had to block prescience too (like no-ships). The Harkonnens used it to frame the Atreides for an attack. Like in Star Trek VI.
I recently completed a read-through of the original 6 books and thought I'd take a peak at the two "sequels" the son and his friend wrote to wrap up the series. I bought into the whole "outlines" narrative...
They're fucking liars.
Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune are so hilariously out-of-touch with the themes Frank was tackling that I'm almost willing to bet these goons didn't even read Frank's books.
Going to spoiler tag the rest:
Them turning the series into weird space Terminator where all of our past protagonists have to team up Avengers style to finally defeat Thinking Machines once and for all is legitimately hliarious and so antithetical to the themes of the first 6 books. I can *maybe* buy that Frank was going to tie back into the Butlerian Jihad, but not like fucking this.
After looking up the other books that Brian and his buddy wrote in the Dune universe (and the timeline in which they were released), I have so little doubt that Hunters and Sandworms were written in an attempt to lend validity to their shitty prequel books.
I just finished Chapterhouse for the first time, really enjoyed it honestly. I don't think I've ever actually finished a book series, certainly one this big (not counting the further books since everyone has told me not to even acknowledge them). Definitely going to go through at least the first 3 again mind you.
Also:
Secrets of Dune
Behind the scenes on DUNE 2020. On the left you can see a more realised ornithopter design with it's wings attached.
'Dune' isn't just being adapted into a new movie this year — it's also becoming a comic, and EW has the first look.
ew.com
"I am pleased to present this faithful graphic novel adaptation of my father's masterpiece," Herbert said in a statement. "This is the first time Dune has ever been published in this format and will introduce many new readers to Frank Herbert's fantastic universe."
I know it's fun to poo on those doodooheads, but this seems unwarranted. The comic sounds like a direct adaptation of the original book. It should be perfectly inoffensive. It's not like they're going to put their silly Transformers in this one. I mean, they wouldn't... right?
Can't see it being as late as June for a trailer. We got a BR2049 teaser (and it was closer to a trailer than a teaser) about 10 months before that came out and I think shooting for Dune was finished a lot earlier than it was for 2049 (?).
Can't see it being as late as June for a trailer. We got a BR2049 teaser (and it was closer to a trailer than a teaser) about 10 months before that came out and I think shooting for Dune was finished a lot earlier than it was for 2049 (?).
So the great threat was from Face Dancers who greatly advanced past what the non-scattered Tleilaxu have. It seemed like they had some kind of prescient vision plus the ability to absorb every bit of another individual (which the Tleilaxu had just found in Heretics). They were basically gods. They knew everything that every other faction knew and had some far reaching vision (or they could see through gholas, which was a Tleilaxu invention).
Quite a powerful threat.
I was thinking that the threat was going to circle back to technology, from Ix since they seemed to be very vague and always peripheral. Up to no good in the shadows, like how the Tleilaxu misled everyone by appearing non-threatening.
All in all, it was pretty good. I think God Emperor is the best stopping point though Heretics and Chapterhouse are still interesting in their own ways. I am not really sure on the message of Chapterhouse though. It just seemed to loop back to we need to scatter to preserve ourselves. I'm not sure what I was suppose to take away from it.
Like God Emperor had the big take away of not fearing change, that in fact the change and surprises along the way were important for becoming better (iirc)
I was expecting the Bene Gesserit to have to embrace Love and not be so cold and distant but it didn't really. It built up the idea that love was such an essential animal instinct in us that we needed to embrace it more, but I didn't get the sense that the ending really made that claim. Or maybe the inclusion of their enemy, the Matres into BG society was the embracing of love to advance human interests for the better. Hmm that would make sense.
I think the best part of Chapterhouse was the afterword by Frank about his wife. Very sweet, and clearly the inspiration for the BG. It reminded me a lot of this:
Now I'm going to read a synopsis of the next books to see what Frank may have intended.
So the great threat was from Face Dancers who greatly advanced past what the non-scattered Tleilaxu have. It seemed like they had some kind of prescient vision plus the ability to absorb every bit of another individual (which the Tleilaxu had just found in Heretics). They were basically gods. They knew everything that every other faction knew and had some far reaching vision (or they could see through gholas, which was a Tleilaxu invention).
Quite a powerful threat.
I was thinking that the threat was going to circle back to technology, from Ix since they seemed to be very vague and always peripheral. Up to no good in the shadows, like how the Tleilaxu misled everyone by appearing non-threatening.
All in all, it was pretty good. I think God Emperor is the best stopping point though Heretics and Chapterhouse are still interesting in their own ways. I am not really sure on the message of Chapterhouse though. It just seemed to loop back to we need to scatter to preserve ourselves. I'm not sure what I was suppose to take away from it.
Like God Emperor had the big take away of not fearing change, that in fact the change and surprises along the way were important for becoming better (iirc)
I was expecting the Bene Gesserit to have to embrace Love and not be so cold and distant but it didn't really. It built up the idea that love was such an essential animal instinct in us that we needed to embrace it more, but I didn't get the sense that the ending really made that claim. Or maybe the inclusion of their enemy, the Matres into BG society was the embracing of love to advance human interests for the better. Hmm that would make sense.
I think the best part of Chapterhouse was the afterword by Frank about his wife. Very sweet, and clearly the inspiration for the BG. It reminded me a lot of this:
Now I'm going to read a synopsis of the next books to see what Frank may have intended.
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ew.com
