After reading Dune earlier this year and thoroughly enjoying it I am now on Paul of Dune, as my library was out of messiah.
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DUNE Community |OT| Fear is the Mind-Killer
- Thread starter luca
- Start date
- Spoiler Entertainment OT
I don't recognize that title, which means it's probably one of the Bullshit Dune novels. I'd just stick with the original six and ignore anything not written directly by Frank Herbert.
It's by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson. So far one third in it's fine. I just love the world and characters.
Apparently it is set between dune and dune messiah.
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Let us know what you think of it when you're done.
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None of them have mentioned Chani by name yet. I always used to pronounce her like Char-ni, like charge. But then the tv show called her Chay-ni, like chain.
Finally got to play the new reprint of the original board game and it's truly epic. Wonderfully evocative of Dune. Super recommended if anyone fans have five other friends they can rope into it, since it's a quite a commitment.
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Can someone help explain two things for me without spoiling Chapter House since I haven't read it yet?
I'll start up Chapter House tonight. I was told it delves more into the ghola. It just sucks that the text is bolded just like Children of Dune, it's a bit harder on the eye until you get used to it.
- If Duncan has some of Siona's DNA/cells in him shouldn't he be invisible to prescience? Has he just not unlocked this ability yet?
- How did Duncan overcome an Honoured Matres sexual seducement exactly? Is it his BG teachings that helped him?
- How did Duncan overcome an Honoured Matres sexual seducement exactly? Is it his BG teachings that helped him?
I'll start up Chapter House tonight. I was told it delves more into the ghola. It just sucks that the text is bolded just like Children of Dune, it's a bit harder on the eye until you get used to it.
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Finished the first book a few nights ago. Pretty good stuff. Ready for my 2020 trailer whenever that's coming.
So what's the consensus, are any of the follow up books worth reading?
PS:
Stinkles, is Halo in the Dune universe?
I can't see 10k years into the future so I guess it's possible. We do have dangerous worms.
I think it's a hit or miss series for a lot of people. The first book is by far the most "traditional" feeling sci-fi read of them all. After that the series tries a lot of curveballs that are pretty daring but can be divisive. That plus never really getting a definite ending burned some.
That said, I'd say give it a shot. Dune Messiah to me felt like another section of the first. Like how the first book is split in three with a time skip. Kinda feels like that a bit. It's also a shorter book overall and quick read. I liked Children of Dune a bit more, but it also kind of starts a new arc.
And suits you poop in. And gholas. And a benevolent space tyrant. We're onto you, ya nerds.
Shit, I always though it was Chah-ni.
I can't wait to find out how horifically wrong all my pronunciations are next December 🤦♂️
Finished the first book a few nights ago. Pretty good stuff. Ready for my 2020 trailer whenever that's coming.
So what's the consensus, are any of the follow up books worth reading?
PS:
Stinkles, is Halo in the Dune universe?
I say go for it. They can be divisive but I love them a lot! Book 2 is maybe my least favorite but it sets up a lot and is short. Book 4 is my favorite in the series.
Books 5 and 6 are quite different - the universe really opens up and introduces a lot of crazy ideas, but I loved them
I'm a firm believer in Death of the Namer, otherwise we'd be going around calling animated pictures "Jiffs" and that's no way to live.
This is where the Lynch movie fucks up. Don't get me wrong... I like the Lynch movie, but you can't walk away from that without thinking Paul was a hero. If folks saw that before they read the books, I can get the misunderstanding.
Is it really Paul's fault that the bene gesserit planted the seeds of a super prophet coming to lead the Fremen ?
Yeah... but our benevolent Space Tyrant got it wrong and failed to predict that people would...
oh.
When I read Dune as a 13 year old, I thought Paul was the hero, and then when I read Messiah, I hated it because he wasn't, and I was a dumb teenager.
I reread it later and adored it. It's creepy and weird and brilliant.
So I've probably read the original Dune like 4 times now, with Messiah and Children twice each (Messiah slaps and I won't hear any slander about it).
However, despite owning the rest of the series, I never had any desire to read on. Leto was far and away my least favorite part of Children, and Paul, Jessica, and Alia were so special to me that I lost any will to read beyond their endpoint.
However, I'm working my way through God Emperor and I'm enjoying it for what it is. I don't love it so far in the same way I did the first three, but I'm a sucker for large time jumps and the world that Herbert is crafting is interesting.
However, despite owning the rest of the series, I never had any desire to read on. Leto was far and away my least favorite part of Children, and Paul, Jessica, and Alia were so special to me that I lost any will to read beyond their endpoint.
However, I'm working my way through God Emperor and I'm enjoying it for what it is. I don't love it so far in the same way I did the first three, but I'm a sucker for large time jumps and the world that Herbert is crafting is interesting.
I read everything except Brian's stuff and I found HUGE enjoyment in all of them - sometimes for clear reasons, sometimes subjective, but even the final books were joy to me, my Baron.
Dune is probably my most read book ever, although LOTR, Consider Phlebas and Finnegan's Wake are up there. And Gene Wolfe is rapidly catching up via sleepy time audio book repeats of Wizard and Knight - and the Severian/Long Sun books.
Dune is probably my most read book ever, although LOTR, Consider Phlebas and Finnegan's Wake are up there. And Gene Wolfe is rapidly catching up via sleepy time audio book repeats of Wizard and Knight - and the Severian/Long Sun books.
The Brian Herbert work is awful and I can't in good faith recommend them.
I just watched The King and seems like Chalamet has the acting chops to pull off our lord and saviour Muad'dib. I thought he was younger, though.
I just watched The King and seems like Chalamet has the acting chops to pull off our lord and saviour Muad'dib. I thought he was younger, though.
About halfway through God Emperor.
It's fine so far but YEESH, can we tone down the misogyny and homophobia there, Frank? It's the one stain on this otherwise great series.
Let's hope Villeneuve and Warner Bros are smart enough to keep that shit out of the movie(s?).
It's fine so far but YEESH, can we tone down the misogyny and homophobia there, Frank? It's the one stain on this otherwise great series.
Let's hope Villeneuve and Warner Bros are smart enough to keep that shit out of the movie(s?).
The first two books absolutely make up two parts of one whole. I highly recommend the second book.
I'd recommend at least through book 3 (Children of Dune), which sort of wraps up the arcs of most major characters. They're practically essential to properly understand what Herbert is trying to say.
Noooooooo.
Duncan is invisible to prescience, as stated. The keep on Gammu wasn't No-shielded or anything.
Duncan didn't overcome the seduction. He just had some technique of his own. The Tleilaxu gave him this talent. They learned about such techniques from returned Tleilaxu from the Scattering, and developed their own to counter-ensnare the whores.
Keep in mind that these weirdos from the Scattering had been returning for at least a century, so there was time to set this all up. There were several failed/assassinated Duncans prior to the events in this book.
Duncan didn't overcome the seduction. He just had some technique of his own. The Tleilaxu gave him this talent. They learned about such techniques from returned Tleilaxu from the Scattering, and developed their own to counter-ensnare the whores.
Keep in mind that these weirdos from the Scattering had been returning for at least a century, so there was time to set this all up. There were several failed/assassinated Duncans prior to the events in this book.
I don't think Duncan is meant to be right about everything. He's a relic from a brutal empire.
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I only did this to get more people in here, since people seem to currently be hyped about Denis' project.
Well, now I'm on Dune thoughts again, so I wouldn't mind discussing, or just writing about, some of Frank's retcons from book to book. He wrote these 6 books for about two decades, so there were some changes. I didn't notice them all at first, as I first read Dune in 5th grade. But I've re-read the entire series of 6 books more times than I can remember since, and I read them again most recently this year. I love them because I always get something new out of each reading.
So, let's talk Other Memories, shall we?
Now, I did not take notes or anything, so everything I say is from my own memory after reading these books for the umpteenth time this year. But Other Memory seems to have evolved over the course of the series.
It really is too bad we'll never see that seventh book, as I am very very interested to know where Frank was taking this.
I may have gone too far writing this much.
So, let's talk Other Memories, shall we?
Now, I did not take notes or anything, so everything I say is from my own memory after reading these books for the umpteenth time this year. But Other Memory seems to have evolved over the course of the series.
So "other memories" are present here in the first book, explicitly and specifically when Jessica becomes a Reverend Mother, she receives all the other memories passed on for millennia from the old Reverend Mother. This book does not seem to have any "genetic memories" however, as later books do. See, there's two kinds of other memory: "genetic" memories inherited from ancestors, and memories purposefully and directly shared from person to person. The first Dune only has the memories that are passed on from person to person through deliberate sharing. The only example of genetic memory in the first book is a hint, where Jessica has a sudden memory out of nowhere (the adab, the demanding memory) of how to participate in the Fremen ritual (before she became a Reverend Mother). But there is no mention of anyone having direct and deliberate access to genetic memories.
Furthermore, it is said that Reverend Mothers only have access to other memories of females. This is because only a Reverend Mother can share, and only women can be Reverend Mothers. When Paul becomes the Kwisatz Haderach, there is no mention of him gaining any other memories whatsoever.
Finally, Alia gained her other memories in the womb when Jessica became a Reverend Mother. Specifically, Alia received them as shared memories just as Jessica did. Not genetic memories.
Furthermore, it is said that Reverend Mothers only have access to other memories of females. This is because only a Reverend Mother can share, and only women can be Reverend Mothers. When Paul becomes the Kwisatz Haderach, there is no mention of him gaining any other memories whatsoever.
Finally, Alia gained her other memories in the womb when Jessica became a Reverend Mother. Specifically, Alia received them as shared memories just as Jessica did. Not genetic memories.
I do not recall if Alia has ancestral genetic memories in this book or not (but she will in the next). However, genetic memories play a large part in this book.
First, the ghola Hayt, having the same genes as the dead Duncan Idaho, is able to regain all of Idaho's memories, essentially becoming Duncan Idaho. The only link between the characters is genes, since Hayt is a clone of Duncan made from genes from Duncan's corpse (that's what a ghola is, after all).
The other example of genetic memories is with the twins. Well, maybe. They are pre-born, like Alia. They are conscious and have language and knowledge. Now, come to think of it, there isn't a mention of ancestral genetic memories for them in this book, but they sure picked up English somewhere, right? Anyway, maybe they don't count as an example of genetic memory in this book, but the circumstances of their condition are strange, where Alia was pre-born due to the ritual Jessica underwent , the twins were pre-born simply by virtue of being Paul's kids. Their first child that was killed in the first book wasn't pre-born, so maybe the extreme circumstances of Chani's pregnancy had something to do with it. But it's a change from the way it went with Alia, at least.
Paul still does not seem to have ancestral genetic memories, nor shall he.
First, the ghola Hayt, having the same genes as the dead Duncan Idaho, is able to regain all of Idaho's memories, essentially becoming Duncan Idaho. The only link between the characters is genes, since Hayt is a clone of Duncan made from genes from Duncan's corpse (that's what a ghola is, after all).
The other example of genetic memories is with the twins. Well, maybe. They are pre-born, like Alia. They are conscious and have language and knowledge. Now, come to think of it, there isn't a mention of ancestral genetic memories for them in this book, but they sure picked up English somewhere, right? Anyway, maybe they don't count as an example of genetic memory in this book, but the circumstances of their condition are strange, where Alia was pre-born due to the ritual Jessica underwent , the twins were pre-born simply by virtue of being Paul's kids. Their first child that was killed in the first book wasn't pre-born, so maybe the extreme circumstances of Chani's pregnancy had something to do with it. But it's a change from the way it went with Alia, at least.
Paul still does not seem to have ancestral genetic memories, nor shall he.
Here is where genetic memories are everywhere, and the shared memories are basically forgotten.
The twins possess the memories of all their ancestors, both male and female. They were not pre-born as Alia was, but rather spontaneously because they're Atreides or something. Okay, fine.
What's really weird is that Alia, if not in the last book (I don't really remember), was definitely retconned in this book into having ancestral genetic memories too, just like the twins. Instead of only getting what Jessica got, she got ancestral memories, and, even more, she got both male and female memories too. So, before, she was like a mini Reverend Mother, but now she's got more than we knew (in the first book) that Reverend Mothers could get, since they only get female memories, and now Alia has female and male like the twins. So did Frank forget? Or did he want Alia to be possessed by the Baron so badly that he changed the rules? Anyway, now anyone with Atreides genes is suspect, who the fuck knows what can happen next?
The twins possess the memories of all their ancestors, both male and female. They were not pre-born as Alia was, but rather spontaneously because they're Atreides or something. Okay, fine.
What's really weird is that Alia, if not in the last book (I don't really remember), was definitely retconned in this book into having ancestral genetic memories too, just like the twins. Instead of only getting what Jessica got, she got ancestral memories, and, even more, she got both male and female memories too. So, before, she was like a mini Reverend Mother, but now she's got more than we knew (in the first book) that Reverend Mothers could get, since they only get female memories, and now Alia has female and male like the twins. So did Frank forget? Or did he want Alia to be possessed by the Baron so badly that he changed the rules? Anyway, now anyone with Atreides genes is suspect, who the fuck knows what can happen next?
Nothing really new here, except with the Reverend Mothers. I'm not sure when we learn that Reverend Mothers now gain ancestral genetic memories when they become Reverend Mothers (because it really wasn't that way in the first book). But they definitely do by now. It's either a retcon, a clarification, or actually something new (maybe more Atreides genes mixed into the Bene Gesserit pool over the millennia contributed to this).
Each new Duncan ghola continues to gain memories from the original Duncan through his genes as well.
Each new Duncan ghola continues to gain memories from the original Duncan through his genes as well.
So, in the last two books, we get all sorts of shared memories again, as we follow the Bene Gesserit much more closely than any previous book. We also have Face Dancers that can now absorb memories of their victims. They eventually do this so well that they forget who they really are. Or become super wise and powerful, depending on which examples we look at.
We also have plenty of genetic memory flying around. Reverend Mothers have it (still only female, but now it's ancestral, not just shared). Gholas have it, as exhibited by Duncan, by the ghola Teg, and by the ghola Tleilaxu masters Scytale and Waff (who've been keeping up a kind of ghola immortality for millennia now, presumably since the time of Dune Messiah when they learned that ghola genetic memories could be regained).
But holy shit, Duncan is about to blow this whole thing wide open.
Like, are genetic memories actually stored in genes? How would that even work? Like, all memories from all ancestors, just in your genes?? That's the presumption we've been running on since the twins and Alia explicitly had such memories. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but then we make certain allowances in sci-fi and fantasy, so whatever, right?
But then this Duncan undergoes a sexy ordeal, and suddenly he has gained all the memories of all the previous Duncan gholas in addition to the original Duncan's memory. That's thousands of years worth of serial Duncan lives, all accessible to this Duncan. One of those previous Duncan's (Hayt) was a mentat, so now this Duncan is a mentat too. He rules out the possiblity that the Bene Tleilax could have acquired DNA samples from every single Duncan over the 5000+ years since the first book. So how does it work?
Is genetic memory really just stored in your genes? Is Duncan different, or does his situation shine a new light on how the genetic/ancestral memories have worked all along?
I don't want to get into souls or anything too much like souls. We could discuss X-Men resurrection and Star Trek transporters all night. But, in Dune, I wonder where Frank was heading with the genetic memories.
Perhaps genetic memories aren't stored in your genes. Maybe there's something cosmic or extra-dimensional about it. Like, all memories are stored in an extra-dimensional cloud, and your genes are simply the access key. With the right circumstances (Reverend Mother, Atreides pre-born) your genes can grant you access to memories other than your own, along ancestral lines. And this Duncan tapped into the full cloud storage for his genes, not just the first folder.
We also have plenty of genetic memory flying around. Reverend Mothers have it (still only female, but now it's ancestral, not just shared). Gholas have it, as exhibited by Duncan, by the ghola Teg, and by the ghola Tleilaxu masters Scytale and Waff (who've been keeping up a kind of ghola immortality for millennia now, presumably since the time of Dune Messiah when they learned that ghola genetic memories could be regained).
But holy shit, Duncan is about to blow this whole thing wide open.
Like, are genetic memories actually stored in genes? How would that even work? Like, all memories from all ancestors, just in your genes?? That's the presumption we've been running on since the twins and Alia explicitly had such memories. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but then we make certain allowances in sci-fi and fantasy, so whatever, right?
But then this Duncan undergoes a sexy ordeal, and suddenly he has gained all the memories of all the previous Duncan gholas in addition to the original Duncan's memory. That's thousands of years worth of serial Duncan lives, all accessible to this Duncan. One of those previous Duncan's (Hayt) was a mentat, so now this Duncan is a mentat too. He rules out the possiblity that the Bene Tleilax could have acquired DNA samples from every single Duncan over the 5000+ years since the first book. So how does it work?
Is genetic memory really just stored in your genes? Is Duncan different, or does his situation shine a new light on how the genetic/ancestral memories have worked all along?
I don't want to get into souls or anything too much like souls. We could discuss X-Men resurrection and Star Trek transporters all night. But, in Dune, I wonder where Frank was heading with the genetic memories.
Perhaps genetic memories aren't stored in your genes. Maybe there's something cosmic or extra-dimensional about it. Like, all memories are stored in an extra-dimensional cloud, and your genes are simply the access key. With the right circumstances (Reverend Mother, Atreides pre-born) your genes can grant you access to memories other than your own, along ancestral lines. And this Duncan tapped into the full cloud storage for his genes, not just the first folder.
It really is too bad we'll never see that seventh book, as I am very very interested to know where Frank was taking this.
I may have gone too far writing this much.
Hot take- dna has plenty of inexplicable corners that we previously assumed served no purpose (not just "junk" dna but other dead end bits) however there's some evidence that biological functions have quantum behaviors- so add all that up and what if dna had the ability to write itself and create crystal outcomes from quantum effects on the downstream from brain activity that are far more complex than the basic acid code "seeds?"
I don't mean to suggest this is real- just not falsifiable enough to ruin it in the next reply. Also I am not high.
There are no books between Dune and Dune Messiah. Not proper ones anyway.
For your second one...
remember that the Tleilaxu have had contact with their Scattered brethren and how Face Dancers work, and how gholas can be made with many, many things hidden in their genes
Remember - humans as weapons. Think how this particular ghola has been used in the past, by both Tleilaxu and Leto II
I'm really not sure I get the hate for Paul of Dune. i am 2/3s through and for the most part enjoying it.
Like the war of assasins on Caladan
Like Fenring and his ilk on the Theraxi (sp?) homeworld
Enjoy the various skirmishes of the Jihad
And the assassination attempt had me on the edge of my seat.
So why should I hate this?
Like the war of assasins on Caladan
Like Fenring and his ilk on the Theraxi (sp?) homeworld
Enjoy the various skirmishes of the Jihad
And the assassination attempt had me on the edge of my seat.
So why should I hate this?
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Finished the first book a few nights ago. Pretty good stuff. Ready for my 2020 trailer whenever that's coming.
So what's the consensus, are any of the follow up books worth reading?
PS:
Stinkles, is Halo in the Dune universe?
Considering there are no forms if intelligent aliens what-so-ever in the Dune universe I'm gonna say no... lol
Oh well I will finish the book in blissful ignorance. 😜
Dune Messiah is lined up next.
What is this misogyny and homophobia you speak of?
When Duncan gets defensive about the fish speakers only being women?
That whole thing came across to me as being very positive toward LGBT because Leto directly tells Duncan whom is the equivalent of a conservative boomer that he is wrong for being so discriminatory.
That whole thing came across to me as being very positive toward LGBT because Leto directly tells Duncan whom is the equivalent of a conservative boomer that he is wrong for being so discriminatory.
This was my impression. Duncan gets shut down pretty hard over the Fish Speakers, by Leto and Moneo (especially Moneo). He's literally a relic from an earlier time, and the book makes that rather clear.
Thanks for the replies. I think I'll definitely delve into the next few books at some point. Glad I finished the first before any footage of the new film popped up.
Yep. Literally the only thing I hated about Frank's books, and it's a shame.
Make primogeniture is the rule of inheritance in the Imperium (there's a comment by Shaddam about the 'limitations of their sex' and he considers himself hard done by for being forced by the BG to have 'only daughters'; Baron Harkonnen is a violent bisexual pederast - altho as Leto II points out, while amoral the Baron is as much an Epicurean as outright 'evil' in his historical context).
I always thought the existence of the Fremen, whose society is largely egalitarian but with bounded gender roles, and BG who are are ninja space witches balances tis, but then you do have:
'It is a place that is terrifying to us, to women. But a man will come, who can walk where we cannot.'
So yeah, many of the attitudes & mores reflect the time Dune was conceived as well as the historical context Herbert places the Imperium in (a feudal space-faring culture) and in some ways do look antiquated to modern reads - especially as the whole post-modern death of the author stuff just didn't exist then.
It's not just that they're women, he flips out at Leto when he realizes that the Fish Speakers are having sex with each other, and Leto tells him to chill.
I got the same impression of it, that he (Herbert) was specifically pointing out how outdated Duncan's mode of thinking was.
I got the same impression of it, that he (Herbert) was specifically pointing out how outdated Duncan's mode of thinking was.
It's his fault that he foresaw billions of deaths and went "meh, they killed my dad, fuck 'em." He also wanted to save himself of course.
He's always against the jihad, just wants to free the fremen and overthrow shaddam. Can't blame him.
Paul couldn't have stopped the Jihad if he wanted to, it's discussed right in the book. The only way to avoid it would have been to never join the Fremen in the first place. All Paul wanted to do was take back Arrakis and avenge his father, and he had to become a leader of the Fremen in order to do that. By the time that happened, it was too late. The Jihad was going to happen at that point, with or without Muad'Dib.
What he failed to do was stop was the complete and utter destruction of all mankind. Leto would be the one to take the steps necessary to do that.
What he failed to do was stop was the complete and utter destruction of all mankind. Leto would be the one to take the steps necessary to do that.
idk I think future sight and how you can influence it feels pretty grey in the books. Paul is defeatist towards it, thinks that's how it is and he kinda gives up.