• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
IIRC didn't France recently veto Macedonia and another country moving to the next stage of the joining process?
In the meantime, position has changed. So they are now at the same state as Serbia and Montenegro. Technically, the same state as Turkey as well, but there is no way that moves on.

www.rferl.org

EU Leaders Give Final OK To Begin North Macedonia, Albania Membership Talks

European Union leaders have given North Macedonia and Albania formal approval to begin talks to join the bloc, two days after EU ministers gave the green light for the small Balkan nations to begin the process.
 

shem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,955
First headline in a while to make me go:

wot-n-tarnation.jpg
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,252
Nothing good comes from seeding further division among autochthonous/allochthonous lines.
 

Lion

Banned
Jul 7, 2020
593
Since I had to wiki who the hell this is, it's because she's British and doesn't have any relation to Albania other than ethnicity and her parents having fled the country during the 90s.

Meanwhile, the continent JUST had the 25th anniversary of the Srebreniza genocide, july 11th 1995.

Her day of birth: august 22th, 1995. She's young and clueless, basically.

It's not uncommon for second generation immigrants to take extreme positions because they feel like they need to prove their identities both ways though.
Her family actually moved back to Kosovo (which is basically an Albanian state) when she was 10 or 11. She moved back to the UK about 5 yrs later. So she does have stronger ties to the region then you imply, as she lived there & went to school there etc over quite a formative age.
 

Xiao Hu

Chicken Chaser
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,497
Only one thing can bring stability and peace to the Balkans

#BringBackByzantium

Agreed
______
The way I read her tweet, she's referring to popular fascist conspiracy theories/pseudo-science that certain ethnic groups in the Balkans are originally not from there. In the case of Albanians, brain-dead imbeciles like Serbian or North-Macedonian nationalists claim that Albanians came from the historical region of Albania in the Caucasus. North-Macedonians like to spew the bullshit idea that Greeks are actually 'gypsies' that migrated from Egypt (lol).

I don't think she's enough of a piece of shit to post the flag to underline some irredentist message. I rather think that she is too uneducated/dumb to understand the meaning behind it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
373
Right sure that's obvs a legit viewpoint, but then what about for example Northern Ireland? I keep bringing it up in this thread, because as an issue that's historically associated with leftism, people seem very comfortable with it in that circumstance.
I am Irish. I don't speak for everyone here, but the prevailing viewpoint I and people I've spoken to in Ireland on the matter was always that a united Ireland can only happen with the agreement and cooperation of the people of NI, not at their expense. The region is still quite fractured on what it wants; some see themselves as Irish, want to unite with Ireland, and effectively want no part of the UK. Some see themselves as British, want no part in Ireland, and want NI to be closer to the other UK countries. Then you have people who like the unique position NI is in, being essentially both Irish and British, although that sentiment I imagine is a bit strained with Brexit...

However recall that the NI border is a new thing, and Ireland was once entirely under the crown's rule. That the country was arbitrarily split (lets not discuss the actual reasoning right now, just making a point) was seen as a spit in the face, and republicans kept fighting. At the time the NI border was drawn, absoultely it would have been a more black and white issue. As time went on, as the region stabilized and gradually a new generation grew up as Northern Irish, not just Irish, not just British, things changed. and things are a lot more grey. While the sentiment that NI is Irish land, and Irish people is still here, the conversation around it is a lot more nuanced, and the idea of simply annexing it, kicking out the Brits in the bunch and instilling full Irish rule is... let's say idealistic at best, nationalistic at worst. A lot of people that say they want this will actually have a more nuanced (or flipant) opinion on this if you actually ask them about it. Which brings me to Sinn Fein, which I guess is the crux of your argument. They're our left wing party, also our republican/united Ireland party. Fine Gael and Finna Fail couldn't give less of a shit about anything but lining their own pockets. There's support for SF as a rejection of FG/FF, as a left wing party, and as the only party with any inclination towards a united Ireland. SF's current public stance is to hold a referendum on the issue, which a lot of people are fine and agree with, but they also have ties to the IRA which people generally very much don't agree with including SF supporters. I'm not sure how I'd even describe that, but basically, the desire of a united Ireland is fairly universal across all ideologies to different degrees (hell, even not wanting NI because it's a money drain is a valid viewpoint), where annexation or any other straight up agressive approach is generally handwaved because it's a ridiculous idea.

To make that long ramble short: it's nuanced, and it shouldn't really be just put in the left wing/right wing column without knowing a lot about the situation and the actual different viewpoints. Really though, it's a whole different ballgame to what's going on with this "Greater Albania" thing, and should be treated as such.

Irish people more generally support people wanted to gain independence/recognition. You'll generally find higher levels of support here for Palastine, Catalonian independence, even the Kurdish cause, than you would in other countries, because it reminds people of our own past. I'm sure most people here would support Kosovo's existance and outright reject the idea of "Greater Albania".

Of course, I don't speak for the Irish, and I certainly don't speak for the Balkans, but I wanted to give some kind of response.
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
Nothing good comes from seeding further division among autochthonous/allochthonous lines.

Nope.

And any idea that fro unification that starts with "greater.." is almost always a dogwhistle for fascism. wanting to change your states borders based on ancestry by definition is judging people by that heritage. We have a couple of those groups here, fortunately all in the margins.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,828
I'll just say that hardcore ethnonationalism and outright fascism usually make for good bedfellows. They are not the same, by any stretch, but one generally opens up a lot of arguments for the other.
 

Jibreel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
343
If its left to a referendum in those countries then I don't see the problem with it. According to Gallup polls, the majority of Albanians are in favor of uniting with Kosovo to form a single state (68%) and a even larger percentage of Kosovars are in favor of it (75%).
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,108
Austria
If its left to a referendum in those countries then I don't see the problem with it. According to Gallup polls, the majority of Albanians are in favor of uniting with Kosovo to form a single state (68%) and a even larger percentage of Kosovars are in favor of it (75%).
But we're talking about a proposed Albanian ethnostate border that clearly has ambitions to include territory with less than 25% Albanians (which includes the capital of another country).
Talking about referendums is downplaying how fucked up the actual idea is

Edit: I mean, you see what kind of message it sends to support an Albanian independence/secession/whatever referendum in Skopje, right?
 
Last edited:

Armadilo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,877
Well looking at a YouTube video of the conflict, seems Serbia did ethic cleansing on that city of Albanians, serbia did something so bad that Nato actually went to war against Serbia, they fired on Serbia to try and stop their slaughter of those people and ended up killing around 500 serbian civilians.

Seems like a Crimea situation on the people of that city.

But overall it just seems like sad shit and the murder of too many damn people, seems like the conflict will never end.
 

BeeDog

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,558
The "Greater Albania" pipe dream is scary fascistic and nationalistic bullshit, so Dua Lipa can kindly go fuck herself for all eternity.
 

Karsha

Member
May 1, 2020
2,513
So I will try to explain the historic and regional shades of this here as much as I can before terms like fascism etc are used again...

The said map is called "Big Albania" or "real Albania", it was firstly shown in the late 1878 as a reply to the treaty of San Stefano which was done after the Russia - Turkey war to shape the Balkans territories after the withdraw of the Ottoman empire. Basically Albania was non existent according to the treaty so they united in Prizren (a city in Kosovo) and proposed the said map, a map with historical territories were Albanian used to live in majority at that time. Needless to say it wasn't accepted but from the initial draw to their indipendence in 1912 they did gain some territories.

On the second point as to why Dua Lipa isn't informed or is "stupid". Here's the catchy part, she isn't and she is informed. Or better yet she has read the story of her country which makes this stuff all legit. Things get worse were you consider that there's no real history or studies in this zone, all of the countries have their own history. There are at least 4 countries claiming Alexander the Great as their own for example, all of them claiming to be from that zone and accusing the others as the "invaders" and so on. As some user mentioned above on the ex Yougosllavia books you will read that Albanians came there during the Ottoman period from a zone in Asia while in the Albanians book you will learn that they are the descendent of the Ilyrs and that the Serbs and whatever came from the Slavic invasions of the penisula. So there isn't a real source or truth sadly, what she knows is what 99% of Albanians know, their history.

This brings me to the third point. There has been blood in that region, a lot of it. Half of Bosnia got wiped out and the process started in Kosovo too before NATO decided to take a step. This didn't happen 100 years ago, it was barely 20, her family was forced to flee duo to the war and the wounds are still fresh. Considering that they were killed because they were living in a place that according to their story was their's and that they weren't doing anything wrong this map is a way to show that no one is forgotten and that the Albanians will never forget their "brothers" that didn't make it inside the borders and are mistreated in the other countries.

So overall no, what she has posted is just something for the Albanias without a hidden agenda or a fascism(I hate even explaining that using this term is so wrong lol) colour to it, its just her showing that she hasn't forgotten her origin or the other people that fought and died just because they wanted more rights.
Would a native American showing a map of his tribe territories back in the days be considered a Nazi?
 

beansontoast

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 5, 2020
949
I am Irish. I don't speak for everyone here, but the prevailing viewpoint I and people I've spoken to in Ireland on the matter was always that a united Ireland can only happen with the agreement and cooperation of the people of NI, not at their expense. The region is still quite fractured on what it wants; some see themselves as Irish, want to unite with Ireland, and effectively want no part of the UK. Some see themselves as British, want no part in Ireland, and want NI to be closer to the other UK countries. Then you have people who like the unique position NI is in, being essentially both Irish and British, although that sentiment I imagine is a bit strained with Brexit...

However recall that the NI border is a new thing, and Ireland was once entirely under the crown's rule. That the country was arbitrarily split (lets not discuss the actual reasoning right now, just making a point) was seen as a spit in the face, and republicans kept fighting. At the time the NI border was drawn, absoultely it would have been a more black and white issue. As time went on, as the region stabilized and gradually a new generation grew up as Northern Irish, not just Irish, not just British, things changed. and things are a lot more grey. While the sentiment that NI is Irish land, and Irish people is still here, the conversation around it is a lot more nuanced, and the idea of simply annexing it, kicking out the Brits in the bunch and instilling full Irish rule is... let's say idealistic at best, nationalistic at worst. A lot of people that say they want this will actually have a more nuanced (or flipant) opinion on this if you actually ask them about it. Which brings me to Sinn Fein, which I guess is the crux of your argument. They're our left wing party, also our republican/united Ireland party. Fine Gael and Finna Fail couldn't give less of a shit about anything but lining their own pockets. There's support for SF as a rejection of FG/FF, as a left wing party, and as the only party with any inclination towards a united Ireland. SF's current public stance is to hold a referendum on the issue, which a lot of people are fine and agree with, but they also have ties to the IRA which people generally very much don't agree with including SF supporters. I'm not sure how I'd even describe that, but basically, the desire of a united Ireland is fairly universal across all ideologies to different degrees (hell, even not wanting NI because it's a money drain is a valid viewpoint), where annexation or any other straight up agressive approach is generally handwaved because it's a ridiculous idea.

To make that long ramble short: it's nuanced, and it shouldn't really be just put in the left wing/right wing column without knowing a lot about the situation and the actual different viewpoints. Really though, it's a whole different ballgame to what's going on with this "Greater Albania" thing, and should be treated as such.

Irish people more generally support people wanted to gain independence/recognition. You'll generally find higher levels of support here for Palastine, Catalonian independence, even the Kurdish cause, than you would in other countries, because it reminds people of our own past. I'm sure most people here would support Kosovo's existance and outright reject the idea of "Greater Albania".

Of course, I don't speak for the Irish, and I certainly don't speak for the Balkans, but I wanted to give some kind of response.

Hey I totally get that there's nuance, my point is not to suggest that there isn't with the Northern Ireland issue, but that there is nuance with issues like the Balkans and that it's very easy for us over here to be totally comfortable with one kind of nationalism but uncompromising with the other simply, because of which causes we've grown up being conditioned to view as ok (which is why I brought up the left wing thing as support for a united Ireland from non Irish westerners has definitely been associated with leftwing politics) and which ones are a bit more alien to us.

I get that this is anecdotal, but I know enough republicans from Northern Ireland to understand that the views a lot of that community hold is not that fundamentally different from places like the Balkans. Ultimately for the people in the community who think like that, they view Brits in Northern Ireland as completely illegitimate settlers who only live in the country as a result of colonialism. There is a significant part of the ethnically Irish community in Northern Ireland who 100% think along autochthonous/allochthonous lines and a lot of people here would be happy to support that view, because they understand the impact that British oppression and colonialism had on the island. Obviously the GFA allows for an easy mechanism to unite Ireland with a referendum, but firstly there's definitely more than enough people who would be happy if it happened unilaterally without a referendum (much like I'm sure many Albanians would be with a form of Albanian unification) and secondly one side of the divide is going to get screwed over by the results.

As time went on, as the region stabilized and gradually a new generation grew up as Northern Irish, not just Irish, not just British, things changed.

I'm sorry but I really don't think this is true at all. I'm not sure what the perspective is for someone from the ROI like you, so maybe there are things you understand about the issue that I dont, but from my perspective it just seems clearly not true. For example every single person I know from the northern irish catholic community etc (which is suprisingly many for someone living in England) would absolutely hate it if I referred to them as Northern Irish to their face, as far as they are concerned Northern Ireland doesn't even exist. And the increased Sinn Fein and DUP polarisation (specifically in Northern Irish elections, wasn't referring to ROI and FF etc) definitely is evidence of that divide being still very strong. A northern irish republican voting in a UK general election for Sinn Fein over the SDLP is clearly primarily about identity politics, rather than economic positions etc, considering that they are both socdem and republican parties, but clearly SF has always been more extreme in is rhetoric towards republicanism etc, but also with abstentionsim literally cannot work to implement socdem policies. I really don't think Northern Irish people are voting for the most extreme parties on the issue in spite of both SF and the DUP's links to militias etc, I think that association with uncompromising republicanism or unionism is the point of supporting them over the more moderate parties really. I understand that the support for SF in the ROI comes from a slightly different place because of the dominance of the centre right parties, but I wasn't really talking about attitudes there as much (esp as a kosovan/member of the albanian diaspora dua lipa is clearly more analagous to someone from NI rather than the ROI).


Irish people more generally support people wanted to gain independence/recognition. You'll generally find higher levels of support here for Palastine, Catalonian independence, even the Kurdish cause, than you would in other countries, because it reminds people of our own past. I'm sure most people here would support Kosovo's existance and outright reject the idea of "Greater Albania".

It's very interesting you bring up Catalonia, because although the nationialists have obviously been treated awfully by the Castillian Spanish state recently (and Franco was a cunt), the historical parallels there just don't really exist that they do in the same way with these other, more complicated, conflicts (much like how for example Scottish Nationalism also isn't really analagous to Irish Nationalism). It is interesting which nationialist/'self determination' causes western leftists like us are comfortable with and which ones we feel icky about, I'm honestly not sure why some seem to become associated with left wing politics and others not, but the only point I've been trying to make on this thread is that this is all very complicated & emotionally charged for people involved in the conflict and so maybe people should chill a little before reflexively pressing the 'this is fascist' button.
 

deflektor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
89
Ahhh Greater Albania...
The proponents of which conveniently forget that is
a collection of regions which came to host SOME, almost always as a minority amongst the general population, Albanian communities starting from the later Eastern Roman Empire times and especially after the establishment of the Ottoman Empire...Regions which also hosted during that times Slavic,Aromanian/Vlach,Greek,Turkic and even Romani communities...just like the modern Albania proper did back then.

Oh! also the fact that after the dissintegration of the Ottoman empire and the establishment of the modern Balkan Countries and lasting in some cases until after the end of WWII those areas became the focus of continuous population exchanges and assimilation of the rest.
 

Onix555

Member
Apr 23, 2019
3,381
UK
User Warned: Inappropiate Joke
Welcome to the Balkans, where every country simultaneously have claims on each other.
 
Last edited:

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,403
Athens, Greece
.....

So overall no, what she has posted is just something for the Albanias without a hidden agenda or a fascism(I hate even explaining that using this term is so wrong lol) colour to it, its just her showing that she hasn't forgotten her origin or the other people that fought and died just because they wanted more rights.
Would a native American showing a map of his tribe territories back in the days be considered a Nazi?

The Greeks had some similar ideas about Great Hellas which were abruptly stopped in 1922 causing pain and sadness to them until this day. And while Greeks had every right to showing a map of were their ancestors have been, they lost that right when they tried to actually conquer lands this map showed where their people's became mostly a minority.

Because, although Albanians have lived in those territories this stupid map shows, they were a minority that (in case of the Greek war of independence and the Greek lands where my concern is) they were driven out or ( probably most of them) integrated into the newly formed Greek society.

So, to answer your question, showing a map where some of your people lived does not make you a Nazi but she does not show this map to provoke an academic discussion but as a way to align with her idiot nationalist compatriots.
 
Oct 27, 2017
373
Hey I totally get that there's nuance, my point is not to suggest that there isn't with the Northern Ireland issue, but that there is nuance with issues like the Balkans and that it's very easy for us over here to be totally comfortable with one kind of nationalism but uncompromising with the other simply, because of which causes we've grown up being conditioned to view as ok (which is why I brought up the left wing thing as support for a united Ireland from non Irish westerners has definitely been associated with leftwing politics) and which ones are a bit more alien to us.

I get that this is anecdotal, but I know enough republicans from Northern Ireland to understand that the views a lot of that community hold is not that fundamentally different from places like the Balkans. Ultimately for the people in the community who think like that, they view Brits in Northern Ireland as completely illegitimate settlers who only live in the country as a result of colonialism. There is a significant part of the ethnically Irish community in Northern Ireland who 100% think along autochthonous/allochthonous lines and a lot of people here would be happy to support that view, because they understand the impact that British oppression and colonialism had on the island. Obviously the GFA allows for an easy mechanism to unite Ireland with a referendum, but firstly there's definitely more than enough people who would be happy if it happened unilaterally without a referendum (much like I'm sure many Albanians would be with a form of Albanian unification) and secondly one side of the divide is going to get screwed over by the results.



For example every single person I know from the northern irish catholic community etc (which is suprisingly many for someone living in England) would absolutely hate it if I referred to them as Northern Irish to their face, as far as they are concerned Northern Ireland doesn't even exist. And the increased Sinn Fein and DUP polarisation (specifically in Northern Irish elections, wasn't referring to ROI and FF etc) definitely is evidence of that divide being still very strong. A northern irish republican voting in a UK general election for Sinn Fein over the SDLP is clearly primarily about identity politics, rather than economic positions etc, considering that they are both socdem and republican parties, but clearly SF has always been more extreme in is rhetoric towards republicanism etc, but also with abstentionsim literally cannot work to implement socdem policies. I really don't think Northern Irish people are voting for the most extreme parties on the issue in spite of both SF and the DUP's links to militias etc, I think that association with uncompromising republicanism or unionism is the point of supporting them over the more moderate parties really. I understand that the support for SF in the ROI comes from a slightly different place because of the dominance of the centre right parties, but I wasn't really talking about attitudes there as much (esp as a kosovan/member of the albanian diaspora dua lipa is clearly more analagous to someone from NI rather than the ROI).




It's very interesting you bring up Catalonia, because although the nationialists have obviously been treated awfully by the Castillian Spanish state recently (and Franco was a cunt), the historical parallels there just don't really exist that they do in the same way with these other, more complicated, conflicts (much like how for example Scottish Nationalism also isn't really analagous to Irish Nationalism). It is interesting which nationialist/'self determination' causes western leftists like us are comfortable with and which ones we feel icky about, I'm honestly not sure why some seem to become associated with left wing politics and others not, but the only point I've been trying to make on this thread is that this is all very complicated & emotionally charged for people involved in the conflict and so maybe people should chill a little before reflexively pressing the 'this is fascist' button.
I really don't think this is comparable, and what you said is belittling to all of the progress NI has made over the years.
I'm sorry but I really don't think this is true at all. I'm not sure what the perspective is for someone from the ROI like you, so maybe there are things you understand about the issue that I dont, but from my perspective it just seems clearly not true.
With all due respect, I'm really not comfortable with the assumptions you are making as a Englishman here. Frankly, it doesn't matter who you've spoken to, your country caused this problem to begin with, it's not your place to insert yourself.
I've been to NI, multiple times. I have friends from Belfast. I have a friend from Dublin who lived and worked there for years and faced a degree of discrimination during his time there (even showed me he had an Orange order flag hung outside his old bedroom window by someone). I've seen for myself the murals painted on the sides of building celebrating one side or the other, heard the stories of bombings/shootings/marches/brawls as we walked the streets. Experienced the fact that "Catholics" would be able to tell as soon as you spoke if you were "one of them" (we got a friendly greeting from some while we were walking by and chatting). I've seen videos/pictures of unionists burning Irish flags on bonfires with "Kill all taigs" (read kill all Irish) every July. I've seen repulicans doing drills and SF members shouting "Up the RA". I know full well there's still very much a lot of tension surrounding NI, and you'll note that tension has skyrocketed very recently due to the actions of a certain country's recent referendum and appaling attitude towards the area.

I still don't dare to speak for people there. They've still come a long damn way from constant car bombings and murders, they've still got a long way to go. They ultimately are the ones that need to figure it out, and eventually it will be. It should be very painfully obvious to understand why "republicans" would still be insistent on simply kicking the British out based on the fact this is all recent history. It should also be very obvious that most people don't stand for such a "simple" solution these days because time has passed, the situation has evolved. A generation have grown up in NI since the border was put in place. The conversation has changed.

The situation in Ireland is very different, and should be its own discussion. It certainly shouldn't just be used as a simple whatabout topic for left-wing/right-wing bullshit discussions. Focus on the topic at hand. You're going to muddy up what is potentially a very sensitive topic if you don't look at it through it's own lens. If you want to discuss NI, make a thread about it, and I'll happy to all in on it.
 

Karsha

Member
May 1, 2020
2,513
The Greeks had some similar ideas about Great Hellas which were abruptly stopped in 1922 causing pain and sadness to them until this day. And while Greeks had every right to showing a map of were their ancestors have been, they lost that right when they tried to actually conquer lands this map showed where their people's became mostly a minority.

Because, although Albanians have lived in those territories this stupid map shows, they were a minority that (in case of the Greek war of independence and the Greek lands where my concern is) they were driven out or ( probably most of them) integrated into the newly formed Greek society.

So, to answer your question, showing a map where some of your people lived does not make you a Nazi but she does not show this map to provoke an academic discussion but as a way to align with her idiot nationalist compatriots.

We are saying the same thing, what Im trying to say is that tragedy and sadness has happened in that zone and while the Greek one you mentioned is somehow "old" the Albanian one is less than 20 years so its still fresh. We are expecting from a young girl that happens to be a famous singer a lot while Nobelist winners still throw some pretty heavy shades on the zone, and Im sure you know which ones i'm referring. Does that map bring peace or discussion? No. Is it a symbol of Fascism or other things? Absolutely nope. Her post will not change a single thing from all sides considered, just a way to make people happy. Also not that the zone is pretty pure with people being used and abused by the politicans and are extremly poor, for better or worse the nationalistic theories are the only thing they still have.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,349
Any change to current borders should come from the mandate of a democratic referendum won by a majority (the same way Montenegro had a referendum to secede from Serbia for example). If both the Albanian government and the government from Kosovo agree to such referendum I see no problem.

In theory if the Albanian and Macedonian government could agree to a similar referendum to be held in the northern part of Macedonia, but I don't see democratic mandate from the people from that area for this to happen (as not a majority of people in that area are demanding it, through their elected representatives or otherwise)

Also, it shouldn't be a referendum to join/create a "Greater Albania", just to join the current Albanian state, and should be held accountable to the Venice Agreement regarding said referendums and monitored by international advisors

Any type of violent action should be of course condemned and the EU and the UN should do the outmost to stop it. We can't allow what happened in the Balkans' War to happen again

Disclosure: I have close family in the balkans, some were refugees from the 90's war and some still live there, but not in Albania, Macedonia or Kosovo (although I have visited these countries, as well as the rest of the balkans a few times)

Edit: What I say is independent of what Lua Dipa said, not condoning a fascist idea of any kind. Just what I think should be the framework for the resolution of any conflict in which people of a given territory want to be independent or join another state. A democratic referendum agreed upon all the parties involved
 
Last edited:

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,403
Athens, Greece
While having a poor populace might explain why they are exploited by nationalists and their ideas that does not excuse them.

Neither the singer is excused for enabling nationalist ideas using objects and symbols that provoke exactly this.

Because this map is such a symbol and you, which you excuse it, and her should know better.
 

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,941
I'm not sure if it was intended as some sort of fascist dog whistle or not because quite a few people I know believe in the "great ancestors" mythology (which is obviously unhealthy as well) without being full-blown fascists, but that's not a smart move (and have nationalistic undertones) on her part and shouldn't be brushed off lightly.

Balkans is a bomb that can explode at any moment and it only needs a slightest pressure to do so. It would be wise not too put more gasoline into the fire. Right now the majority of population in Kosovo probably would vote for a unification with Albania, but there's a very real chance of a new war if it ever happens.

On the other side you still have people proudly wearing Chetniks symbolic on a World Cup just to troll Albanian/Croat/Bosnian players who might play for other European teams and singing shit about being ready to repeat Srebrenica if needed. Suffice to say it'll take a long ass time before various ethnic groups in the region will be able to have a normal affairs between each other.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,225
That tweet is 200% disgusting. No matter how you sugarcoat it, she's making a nativist argument, equating migrants and colonists, so fuck this piece of shit.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,618
Kosovo literally declared independence only 12 years ago and some people want to make it part of another country
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
Right sure that's obvs a legit viewpoint, but then what about for example Northern Ireland? I keep bringing it up in this thread, because as an issue that's historically associated with leftism, people seem very comfortable with it in that circumstance.
Northern Ireland is a great example, actually. Despite being Irish the majority of them want to stay with the UK and don't want to reunify with Ireland. How would this be any different?
 

Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,418
Northern Ireland is a great example, actually. Despite being Irish the majority of them want to stay with the UK and don't want to reunify with Ireland. How would this be any different?

Because a referendum would actually have a pretty decent chance of passing in Kosovo. There's plenty of other good reasons why this won't happen though.

I think people underestimate how recent the dictatorship and the genocide is. These are not old wounds and people that lived through it have a hard time just "moving past it"to break the cycle of violence.

It'll take quite a bit more time and a lot of diplomatic work for tensions to die down.
 
Last edited:

TrafficCoen

The Fallen
Feb 22, 2019
1,610
Northern Ireland is a great example, actually. Despite being Irish the majority of them want to stay with the UK and don't want to reunify with Ireland. How would this be any different?
It's really closer to 50/50 on passing or not if a referendum happened, especially with Brexit and the like
 
Oct 27, 2017
373
Northern Ireland is a great example, actually. Despite being Irish the majority of them want to stay with the UK and don't want to reunify with Ireland. How would this be any different?
Not only is this not true, and I have no idea what gave you this impression, this ignores the history of NI. Seriously, just drop it and talk about the issue on hand.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
Not only is this not true, and I have no idea what gave you this impression, this ignores the history of NI. Seriously, just drop it and talk about the issue on hand.
Northern Ireland can have a referendum at any time to re-join Ireland, so why hasn't it happened?
www.reuters.com

Poll shows Northern Ireland majority against united Ireland

A majority of voters in Northern Ireland would oppose the region leaving the United Kingdom to form a united Ireland if a referendum were held tomorrow, according to a poll published by the Belfast Telegraph newspaper on Tuesday.
 
Oct 27, 2017
373
Northern Ireland can have a referendum at any time to re-join Ireland, so why hasn't it happened?
www.reuters.com

Poll shows Northern Ireland majority against united Ireland

A majority of voters in Northern Ireland would oppose the region leaving the United Kingdom to form a united Ireland if a referendum were held tomorrow, according to a poll published by the Belfast Telegraph newspaper on Tuesday.
Quoting a poll by the Belfast Telegraph of all things, lol. Yeeeaah, no. I think it's time for people to stop talking about NI when they don't have a clue, and get back to the discussing Albania.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
Quoting a poll by the Belfast Telegraph of all things, lol. Yeeeaah, no. I think it's time for people to stop talking about NI when they don't have a clue, and get back to the discussing Albania.
So, why aren't they re-unified then? Maybe pre-1998 you had an argument, since then they can pretty much do it if they wanted to.
I mean, there is this poll, but 51% suggests that it's not like people in Northern Ireland are all just clamouring for reunification:
www.thejournal.ie

51% of people in Northern Ireland support Irish unification, new poll finds

That’s according to the latest poll published by Lord Ashcroft.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
Northern Ireland can have a referendum at any time to re-join Ireland, so why hasn't it happened?
www.reuters.com

Poll shows Northern Ireland majority against united Ireland

A majority of voters in Northern Ireland would oppose the region leaving the United Kingdom to form a united Ireland if a referendum were held tomorrow, according to a poll published by the Belfast Telegraph newspaper on Tuesday.
Because the government has been in shambles for years? And because the British have no reason to organize one. The person that has to call it is an English tory at the moment.
 
Oct 27, 2017
373
So, why aren't they re-unified then? Maybe pre-1998 you had an argument, since then they can pretty much do it if they wanted to.
I mean, there is this poll, but 51% suggests that it's not like people in Northern Ireland are all just clamouring for reunification:
www.thejournal.ie

51% of people in Northern Ireland support Irish unification, new poll finds

That’s according to the latest poll published by Lord Ashcroft.
I'm gonna just direct you back to my posts from before you commented. The NI situation is not the same as the Albania situation. If you want to discuss NI, make a thread about it, but stop using Ireland as a reference point when you can actually talk about the issue on hand.
 

Jam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,051
I doubt most people in the world understand the political situation and history of that region, but I'm hoping a lot of her fans who are unaware will now look into it rather than blindly liking her tweet.

My man. You KNOW those fans aren't going to research the sociopolitical history of the region and instead will just blindly parrot what Dua says.
 

CerealKi11a

Chicken Chaser
Member
May 3, 2018
1,959
My man. You KNOW those fans aren't going to research the sociopolitical history of the region and instead will just blindly parrot what Dua says.
And even if they do take the time to research it, it is going to be very challenging to wade through the gallons of BS that is any conversation about Balkan history.

Someone with a platform like her should be more cognizant about the message they send, but seeing as her parents are from Kosovo and she herself spent some time there, I don't entirely hold the nationalism against her. The "Greater Albania" stuff is a bridge too far though.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
I'm gonna just direct you back to my posts from before you commented. The NI situation is not the same as the Albania situation. If you want to discuss NI, make a thread about it, but stop using Ireland as a reference point when you can actually talk about the issue on hand.
I feel it's rather relevant, to the idea that putting people of the same ethnicity into a single country isn't going to be some unanimous agreement.