Dragon Ball Super |OT6| The waiting game

[Geldboom]

Having reread the Moro arc I agree that the pacing is a bit better

But the whole arc coming down to a highlight reel of previous arcs doesn't work for me.

I mostly liked the stuff that doesn't involve Goku and Vegeta.
The Buu fight was neat, the Z-warriors doing stuff on earth was fun.

I really like the start of the Granolah arc too.
Goku getting even more stronk isn't surprising at all and I'm glad that Vegeta will learn something new that isn't just aping Goku.

 

[Kagari]

Having reread the Moro arc I agree that the pacing is a bit better

But the whole arc coming down to a highlight reel of previous arcs doesn't work for me.

I mostly liked the stuff that doesn't involve Goku and Vegeta.
The Buu fight was neat, the Z-warriors doing stuff on earth was fun.

I really like the start of the Granolah arc too.
Goku getting even more stronk isn't surprising at all and I'm glad that Vegeta will learn something new that isn't just aping Goku.

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All of this. It was already telling in the anime US arc that the series picked up a lot when it wasn't just rehashing the same old Goku and Vegeta shtick. What little there has been with other characters outside of that has easily been the most interesting, there just needed to be more of it and not months of Vegeta training chapters to fall on his face.

 

[Lashley]

I loved the Moro arc personally

 

[Comrade Grogu]

I hated the Moro arc personally.

Which is why I never read it.

Spoiler

😛

 

[Geldboom]

I hated the Moro arc personally.

Which is why I never read it.

Spoiler

😛

Click to shrink...

 

[Comrade Grogu]

Click to shrink...

Hey, you gotta admit: it was a good plan:

The plan in question: don't read something you'll probably hate and maybe wait until something good happens later on.

You see, folks, you can't suffer through Toyotaro's bullshit if you don't read it.

 

[Geldboom]

Hey, you gotta admit: it was a good plan:

The plan in question: don't read something you'll probably hate and maybe wait until something good happens later on.

You see, folks, you can't suffer through Toyotaro's bullshit if you don't read it.

Click to shrink...

 

[HeroR]

Even on rereading, the pacing is bad because there is a lot of unneeded stuff and I still feel the arc should have ended on Namek.

Merus was a poor side-character and his relationship with Goku was undercooked despite how drawn out the arc was.

UI has no business being the answer to Moro, especially when Toyo clearly retcon how Moro's power worked.

Moro was an interesting idea with horrible execution. His magic was less of a gimmick and more of a Get Out of Jail Free card and New Power of the Plot Demand.

There's no justifying the Senzu. Goku wants Moro in jail and not kill him, cool. He didn't need to heal him to do that as Jaco himself pointed out and if Moro was half as smart as the fandom kept claiming, he could have easily killed Jaco in space after he surrender and nuked the Earth. Even more frustrating is how Goku just kept giving Moro chances after he proven that he's a lair. Even Goku only gave Frieza one chance before trying to kill him on Namek.

Is Moro better than Cell. Personally no since Moro copies Cell while Cell was the original despite them both being bland. Cell also lived up to be a crafty SOB in his Imperfect form while Moro had the plot give him wins.

 

[Fj0823]

Even on rereading, the pacing is bad because there is a lot of unneeded stuff and I still feel the arc should have ended on Namek.

Merus was a poor side-character and his relationship with Goku was undercooked despite how drawn out the arc was.

UI has no business being the answer to Moro, especially when Toyo clearly retcon how Moro's power worked.

Moro was an interesting idea with horrible execution. His magic was less of a gimmick and more of a Get Out of Jail Free card and New Power of the Plot Demand.

There's no justifying the Senzu. Goku wants Moro in jail and not kill him, cool. He didn't need to heal him to do that as Jaco himself pointed out and if Moro was half as smart as the fandom kept claiming, he could have easily killed Jaco in space after he surrender and nuked the Earth. Even more frustrating is how Goku just kept giving Moro chances after he proven that he's a lair. Even Goku only gave Frieza one chance before trying to kill him on Namek.

Is Moro better than Cell. Personally no since Moro copies Cell while Cell was the original despite them both being bland. Cell also lived up to be a crafty SOB in his Imperfect form while Moro had the plot give him wins.

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Absolutely agree on Merus, he not once feels like an actual character. Just like the filler best friends Naruto makes over and over.

 

[brinstar]

It's hard for me to even think super critically about the old DB arcs because they've been hammered into my soul for decades now, and even back when I first saw/read them I already knew what was going to happen. I didn't encounter those stories one episode at a time, week by week, coming up with my own expectations and ideas of where the story should go. I do find the Moro arc similar to Cell in that it just kind of gets less interesting to me as it goes on. Both start with antagonists with unique abilities that provide the main characters with a new challenge (the androids absorb ki and can't be sensed!) and then as the arc keeps going it just turns into fighting another Standard DBZ Guy.

 

[TMaakkonen]

A big problem for me is that Moro's big change and form is... him absorbing this random mook that came halfway through story. 73 really just came out of nowhere. When Frieza used his army, it felt more natural than Moro using his mooks.

Interestingly Toriyama seems to do something 73, though reading new chapter he could be dropped off after Heeters just get the information they need. Or maybe thats how they learn about Earth & Saiyans and UI which Granolah could learn about too.

 

[Sou Da]

I finally go to watching the Tournament of Power and this was pretty mid. I enjoyed a lot of the restraint put in and the commitment to giving the other earth characters some shine but all of the Goku involved fights were just the most boring "this person says they're stronger so they are" type fights, everyone else had to deal with an actual gimmick/strategy which was a lot more entertaining and I genuinely appreciated how well "booked" Gohan was. They gave him a good niche as the fighter who really thinks and my initial disappointment with him not getting anything new went away when I really thought about how unfair it would be for him to surpass people who've actually been dedicated to getting stronger constantly. Piccolo on the other hand has no excuse, they just don't want him be important beyond his relationship to Gohan.

Really my biggest gripes come down to two aspects:

1. Jiren is boring as shit. In wrestling terms he's supposed to be this big body monster heel but his actual fighting style is incredibly dull, he just overpowers everything and punches. Like there's nothing else to it, the plot says he's simply stronger than everyone and so he is. His personality is also a big wad of nothing, he's extremely arrogant with his immense strength but he's not scary or precise with it so his "this is beneath me, I just want the W" attitude falls flat. I'm not gonna touch his backstory because it's dumb but if the whole theme is about "trust" then Goku shouldn't have beaten him in a 1v1 and he didn't, so props where it's due I guess.
2. The purpose of the arc being a morality play is so insanely fucking stupid. The Omni-Kings are just 2 Cailous who clearly don't see other beings as anything other than entertainment and we're told they've destroyed universes for incredibly petty reasons before, I don't buy that they care about strong mortals being compassionate. Also I didn't even think that the Super Dragon Balls COULD undo stuff Zeno did, if that was the case why the fuck didn't the Kais all agree to get their teams to wish the other universes back? Why didn't Bergamo organize some agreement like this? It doesn't make any damn sense.

So yeah that's it, I think the best part of the arc were the character interactions and I hope they do the no brainer thing and have Vegeta bring Trunks with him and do an arc on Salada. There's a lot of good stuff you can mine from that considering how hard they're pushing "Vegeta is a changed family man".

I got two questions though: They're never going to follow up on Gohan finding his own path to power that's separate from everything else huh? and Is the Kale and Caulifla relationship as queer-baity in the JP dub?

 

[Lotus]

and Is the Kale and Caulifla relationship as queer-baity in the JP dub?

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Why yes, yes it is, super blatant

 

[HeroR]

It's hard for me to even think super critically about the old DB arcs because they've been hammered into my soul for decades now, and even back when I first saw/read them I already knew what was going to happen. I didn't encounter those stories one episode at a time, week by week, coming up with my own expectations and ideas of where the story should go. I do find the Moro arc similar to Cell in that it just kind of gets less interesting to me as it goes on. Both start with antagonists with unique abilities that provide the main characters with a new challenge (the androids absorb ki and can't be sensed!) and then as the arc keeps going it just turns into fighting another Standard DBZ Guy.

Click to shrink...

I would put Moro as worst simply because Cell was created out of Toriyama's ass. Namely, he had to changed main villages several times because his former editor hated Androids 16-20, and Cell changed forms because he then current editor hated Cell's forms one and two (proven he had questionable taste for hating Imperfect Cell). So despite my harshness towards the Android/Cell Saga, I also admire that Toriyama put a story like that together weekly and made it work for the most part. It really showed Toriyama's talent as improvise writer. Which is why I can never hate the Android/Cell Saga even if I think it's easily the weakest arc in Z and Cell was an overall disappointment after having such a great introduction.

Moro arc has no such luxury. Toyo is a very mediocre writer with no imagination. He did Moro and Merus no justice despite the idea being there. He could have made Moro any way he wanted and he wasn't writing by the seat of his pants on a weekly manga, yet he came out as a copy of other villains with nothing really unique on his own outside of 'magic' which was really just a plot device to keep Moro winning. And even more frustrating, Toyo isn't getting better because Toriyama isn't harsh enough when it comes to story aspects and his editor seems to be just there to kill his ass. So Toyo isn't getting the proper feedback to improve, just keep making the same mistakes.

Which is why I am not excited for the current arc even with Toriyama's increased involvement since Toyo has time and time again shown that he can take a great idea and shit all over it or execute it in the most bland way possible.

I also wonder how big of a deal this current arc really is since it's gotten about much fanfare and attention as Moro, as in it doesn't really exist unless you follow V-Jump and the main character couldn't even get a design from Toriyama. For reference, look at the fanfare the Universal Survival Saga gotten when the manga was doing a preview for it.

 

[TMaakkonen]

While Cell arc has some issues and the fact Cell was mostly editor forced, I feel like it worked out for better.

The Androids really were just not that good pick for main villains from what we got, though to be fair we dont know how they would have been written as main villains. Sure, technology is apparently crazy in DB, but after Frieza, its just weird some robot became that strong via data from Saiyan Saga.

Cell works with having Saiyan, Namekian & Frieza cells to logically explain why he is strong. Hell, had Cell not been a thing, Frieza would have existed to only job to Trunks who jobbed to Androids. Now Frieza's return actually had impact. On top of it I think its neat they did the "hero time travels to stop a thing" but also end up having villain using time travel too.

And Cell's design is solid, because just look at all spin-offs and Moro's final form lol. I've mentioned this before, but Cell was likely better scenario than 19 & Gero being main villains.

 

[Lange]

Hating something you never read and thinking that's smart is.....wow. You guys seriously need to stop hating stuff that doesn't meet your expectations, you're gonna suffer in all venues of life with that attitude (especially relationships).

 

[Lashley]

Hating something you never read and thinking that's smart is.....wow. You guys seriously need to stop hating stuff that doesn't meet your expectations, you're gonna suffer in all venues of life with that attitude (especially relationships).

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Bit of a leap

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Hating something you never read and thinking that's smart is.....wow. You guys seriously need to stop hating stuff that doesn't meet your expectations, you're gonna suffer in all venues of life with that attitude (especially relationships).

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Force myself to like things

Sounds healthy too!

 

[Kagari]

I finally go to watching the Tournament of Power and this was pretty mid. I enjoyed a lot of the restraint put in and the commitment to giving the other earth characters some shine but all of the Goku involved fights were just the most boring "this person says they're stronger so they are" type fights, everyone else had to deal with an actual gimmick/strategy which was a lot more entertaining and I genuinely appreciated how well "booked" Gohan was. They gave him a good niche as the fighter who really thinks and my initial disappointment with him not getting anything new went away when I really thought about how unfair it would be for him to surpass people who've actually been dedicated to getting stronger constantly. Piccolo on the other hand has no excuse, they just don't want him be important beyond his relationship to Gohan.

Really my biggest gripes come down to two aspects:

1. Jiren is boring as shit. In wrestling terms he's supposed to be this big body monster heel but his actual fighting style is incredibly dull, he just overpowers everything and punches. Like there's nothing else to it, the plot says he's simply stronger than everyone and so he is. His personality is also a big wad of nothing, he's extremely arrogant with his immense strength but he's not scary or precise with it so his "this is beneath me, I just want the W" attitude falls flat. I'm not gonna touch his backstory because it's dumb but if the whole theme is about "trust" then Goku shouldn't have beaten him in a 1v1 and he didn't, so props where it's due I guess.
2. The purpose of the arc being a morality play is so insanely fucking stupid. The Omni-Kings are just 2 Cailous who clearly don't see other beings as anything other than entertainment and we're told they've destroyed universes for incredibly petty reasons before, I don't buy that they care about strong mortals being compassionate. Also I didn't even think that the Super Dragon Balls COULD undo stuff Zeno did, if that was the case why the fuck didn't the Kais all agree to get their teams to wish the other universes back? Why didn't Bergamo organize some agreement like this? It doesn't make any damn sense.

So yeah that's it, I think the best part of the arc were the character interactions and I hope they do the no brainer thing and have Vegeta bring Trunks with him and do an arc on Salada. There's a lot of good stuff you can mine from that considering how hard they're pushing "Vegeta is a changed family man".

I got two questions though: They're never going to follow up on Gohan finding his own path to power that's separate from everything else huh? and Is the Kale and Caulifla relationship as queer-baity in the JP dub?

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He's strengthening his Ultimate form is what he means. He'll keep doing that instead of using the god forms like his dad does, not that he needs them anyway since they scaled Ultimate up massively.

 

[Kagari]

Even on rereading, the pacing is bad because there is a lot of unneeded stuff and I still feel the arc should have ended on Namek.

Merus was a poor side-character and his relationship with Goku was undercooked despite how drawn out the arc was.

UI has no business being the answer to Moro, especially when Toyo clearly retcon how Moro's power worked.

Moro was an interesting idea with horrible execution. His magic was less of a gimmick and more of a Get Out of Jail Free card and New Power of the Plot Demand.

There's no justifying the Senzu. Goku wants Moro in jail and not kill him, cool. He didn't need to heal him to do that as Jaco himself pointed out and if Moro was half as smart as the fandom kept claiming, he could have easily killed Jaco in space after he surrender and nuked the Earth. Even more frustrating is how Goku just kept giving Moro chances after he proven that he's a lair. Even Goku only gave Frieza one chance before trying to kill him on Namek.

Is Moro better than Cell. Personally no since Moro copies Cell while Cell was the original despite them both being bland. Cell also lived up to be a crafty SOB in his Imperfect form while Moro had the plot give him wins.

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Agreed with all of this. The whole thing was dragged out for two years and nothing really justified that at all. The way UI was just tacked on is laughable at best.

 

[NeonZ]

I got two questions though: They're never going to follow up on Gohan finding his own path to power that's separate from everything else huh?

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The script writer of the episode where that line was said left Dragonball Super after the first few episodes of the ToP, and it doesn't seem to be part of Toriyama's outline. So, yeah, that has been forgotten.

 

[Kagari]

The script writer of the episode where that line was said left Dragonball Super after the first few episodes of the ToP, and it doesn't seem to be part of Toriyama's outline. So, yeah, that has been forgotten.

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The manga has the same thing but it's just worded a bit different. He's choosing to evolve as an individual martial artist and not relying on Saiyan forms to do so. It's less blatant than what he told Goku but it's there. Which again is furthering his Ultimate form because he doesn't need anything else when he has just that.

 

[NeonZ]

The manga has the same thing but it's just worded a bit different. He's choosing to evolve as an individual martial artist and not relying on Saiyan forms to do so. It's less blatant than what he told Goku but it's there. Which again is furthering his Ultimate form because he doesn't need anything else when he has just that.

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In both anime and manga, Gohan talked about following his own path, but in the anime he mentions wanting to achieve an ultimate form that no one else has seen, which is much more specific.

 

[Kagari]

In both anime and manga, Gohan talked about following his own path, but in the anime he mentions wanting to achieve an ultimate form that no one else has seen, which is much more specific.

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The word he uses is the same word they use for his current ultimate form when it's not in katakana so it makes sense that it's just that. Games like Dokkan have also used this line to just say he's improving his current Ultimate state.

 

[TheRealTalker]

TOEI save us.

Spoiler

I can't believe I said that. Well let's see how this new arc pans out.

 

[HeroR]

In both anime and manga, Gohan talked about following his own path, but in the anime he mentions wanting to achieve an ultimate form that no one else has seen, which is much more specific.

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I always read it as Gohan saying that he was going to make his Ultimate form truly Ultimate. Not that he was going for a new form.

 

[NeonZ]

The word he uses is the same word they use for his current ultimate form when it's not in katakana so it makes sense that it's just that. Games like Dokkan have also used this line to just say he's improving his current Ultimate state.

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I haven't played the DB mobile games, but that's kind of the issue with that line. In the context of the ToP, when they finally started clearing things up regarding it, "Ultimate form" was a specific form Gohan has, not just his best state. So, when he talks about achieving an Ultimate form that no one has ever seen before it doesn't sound like just self-improvement.

 

[Lotus]

Gohan basically said he's gonna continue to be completely boring as both a fighter and character, it is what it is

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Gohan basically said he's gonna continue to be completely boring as both a fighter and character, it is what it is

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Well ...well damn lotus. It's not violent Tuesday it's well being Wednesday

 

[Kagari]

I always read it as Gohan saying that he was going to make his Ultimate form truly Ultimate. Not that he was going for a new form.

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Yes, it is this.

 

[Lotus]

Well ...well damn lotus. It's not violent Tuesday it's well being Wednesday

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Meh, I've said it before, but the whole Ultimate form only really works for me when he's the actual strongest Saiyan

We like to mock stuff like SSJ4, SSB, UI, etc. for all sorts of (usually well deserved) reasons, but can't lie, they just giving us (the fanbase) what we want. Flashy transformations and attacks is what draws people in, and it's what people expect. It's just hype.

And it's not like we expect top tier character writing from this franchise (if Gohan can even get screentime), so being superficial is all we really got. And on that front, Gohan is dead last as far as the Saiyans go IMO

Spoiler

And I still say his best episode was him just living his life as a family man when Trunks visited

 

[Kagari]

Meh, I've said it before, but the whole Ultimate form only really works for me when he's the actual strongest Saiyan

We like to mock stuff like SSJ4, SSB, UI, etc. for all sorts of (usually well deserved) reasons, but can't lie, they just giving us (the fanbase) what we want. Flashy transformations and attacks is what draws people in, and it's what people expect. It's just hype.

And it's not like we expect top tier character writing from this franchise (if Gohan can even get screentime), so being superficial is all we really got. And on that front, Gohan is dead last as far as the Saiyans go IMO

Spoiler

And I still say his best episode was him just living his life as a family man when Trunks visited

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The fanbase isn't a monolith. Plenty of people like Ultimate Gohan and that's fine. I appreciate the simplicity because it's not rehashing the same shit over and over without moving the characters forward in terms of development (see Goku and Vegeta).

 

[Sibersk Esto]

An actual exciting progression for what Gohan was talking about would be Ultra Instinct, but that ship sailed

 

[Kagari]

An actual exciting progression for what Gohan was talking about would be Ultra Instinct, but that ship sailed

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The anime and by extension Toyotarou of all people have handled him well. In the DBS manga he's often portrayed as a smarter fighter than even Goku, which isn't surprising given how much Toyo liked the character in his AF comic.

 

[Lotus]

The fanbase isn't a monolith. Plenty of people like Ultimate Gohan and that's fine. I appreciate the simplicity because it's not rehashing the same shit over and over without moving the characters forward in terms of development (see Goku and Vegeta).

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I didn't say no one likes Ultimate Gohan tho, I'm just explaining why I find him boring as hell

All I'm saying is he isn't delivering on the superficial front (which at least Goku and Vegeta manage to do) and IMO he certainly isn't delivering from a character/writing standpoint either to make up for it.

Again, it is what it is, maybe one day he'll get some real focus again

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Just get rid of Gohan and make Goten his only son. Goku's son just being a small version of him is funnier.

No he shouldn't grow up

 

[Kagari]

I didn't say no one likes Ultimate Gohan tho, I'm just explaining why I find him boring as hell

All I'm saying is he isn't delivering on the superficial front (which at least Goku and Vegeta manage to do) and IMO he certainly isn't delivering from a character/writing standpoint either to make up for it.

Again, it is what it is, maybe one day he'll get some real focus again

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Well that's your opinion after all. I still enjoyed his and Piccolo's fights in the recent manga content moreso than anything Goku and Vegeta did.

 

[The Silver]

I agree with Lotus that Ultimate was great when it actually was the strongest, the whole concept doesn't work as well when Blue and Green haired people keep showing up as stronger, and it really got punked with the superior Ultra Instinct Omen "twist on base form" design but that's gone now/probably gonna be phased out anyway for Goku Blanco.

I barely remember anything Gohan does in the manga, I seriously forgot he even fought Moro. Anime Gohan chose violence and destroyed Tien's career so I'm a fan of him, he was good in the ToP too.

 

[Kagari]

I agree with Lotus that Ultimate was great when it actually was the strongest, the whole concept doesn't work as well when Blue and Green haired people keep showing up as stronger, and it really got punked with the superior Ultra Instinct Omen "twist on base form" design but that's gone now/probably gonna be phased out anyway for Goku Blanco.

I barely remember anything Gohan does in the manga, I seriously forgot he even fought Moro. Anime Gohan chose violence and destroyed Tien's career so I'm a fan of him, he was good in the ToP too.

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Yeah he had a cool team up with Piccolo and Goku that would have worked if Moro hadn't infinite plot armor at the time. Then it was just Goku again and I fell asleep, ah well.

Tenshinhan still not recovered, mans bankrupted by Goku too.

 

[HeroR]

The fanbase isn't a monolith. Plenty of people like Ultimate Gohan and that's fine. I appreciate the simplicity because it's not rehashing the same shit over and over without moving the characters forward in terms of development (see Goku and Vegeta).

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Gohan's Ultimate form didn't move Gohan in terms of development either. He had it handed to him by Elder Kai after he slacked off for seven years. I mean you mocked Goku and Vegeta, but at least they worked for their forms except Goku's Super Saiyan God which even he disliked at first because he didn't earn it.

In fact, I would say Gohan getting his Ultimate form reinforced his laziness and regression. Goku, Vegeta, Goten, and Trunks had to train hard to get what they got in the Buu Saga outside of Vegeta's Majin boost, while Gohan did a day of training before getting his hidden power unlocked again and because the strongest unfused character.

I agree with Lotus that Ultimate was great when it actually was the strongest, the whole concept doesn't work as well when Blue and Green haired people keep showing up as stronger, and it really got punked with the superior Ultra Instinct Omen "twist on base form" design but that's gone now/probably gonna be phased out anyway for Goku Blanco.

I barely remember anything Gohan does in the manga, I seriously forgot he even fought Moro. Anime Gohan chose violence and destroyed Tien's career so I'm a fan of him, he was good in the ToP too.

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This is my feeling too along with how they made it a form instead of a permeant state. Now, it has the Super Saiyan 2 problem where people don't know when Gohan has it on without having a visual cue. If they were going in that direction, making it like UI Signs was the way to go or even Broly Wrath form.

 

[Kagari]

Gohan's Ultimate form didn't move Gohan in terms of development either. He had it handed to him by Elder Kai after he slacked off for seven years. I mean you mocked Goku and Vegeta, but at least they worked for their forms except Goku's Super Saiyan God which even he disliked at first because he didn't earn it.

In fact, I would say Gohan getting his Ultimate form reinforced his laziness and regression. Goku, Vegeta, Goten, and Trunks had to train hard to get what they got in the Buu Saga outside of Vegeta's Majin boost, while Gohan did a day of training before getting his hidden power unlocked again and because the strongest unfused character.

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He had to work to get it back in Super, and he did. And it's in Super where it became something more interesting IMO, because it was actually useful, unlike the Boo arc.

Goku didn't really work for UI though, he was rusty before the tournament and happened to luck into it by eating a genki dama. And Vegeta's sparkle form was just him crying about Cabba for a few seconds.

 

[HeroR]

Yeah he had a cool team up with Piccolo and Goku that would have worked if Moro hadn't infinite plot armor at the time. Then it was just Goku again and I fell asleep, ah well.

Tenshinhan still not recovered, mans bankrupted by Goku too.

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Gohan's team work was him copying Gotenks and didn't even bind both of Moro's arms. That entire panel was just odd.

 

[Sou Da]

Well that's your opinion after all. I still enjoyed his and Piccolo's fights in the recent manga content moreso than anything Goku and Vegeta did.

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I caught up with the Moro stuff and I gotta free here. Also spirit fission just being "punches but we say it does something else" was a heads he let down imo

 

[Kagari]

Gohan's team work was him copying Gotenks and didn't even bind both of Moro's arms. That entire panel was just odd.

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I suppose if they're not gonna use Gotenks himself, they might as well give his moves to other people... lol. Or they could use Gotenks.

I caught up with the Moro stuff and I gotta free here. Also spirit fission just being "punches but we say it does something else" was a heads he let down imo

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Spirit fission being something that was built up for months only to fall on its face/be underwhelming is really just the culmination of a lot of what the manga does unfortunately.

 

[The Silver]

I caught up with the Moro stuff and I gotta free here. Also spirit fission just being "punches but we say it does something else" was a heads he let down imo

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Vegeta got Ultimate Gohan'd. Spent half the time training and hyping up a new technique/form only to show up, get mollywhopped, and then serve as a battery for Goku's spirit bomb/blanco form.

At least Ultimate felt badass as fuck for a moment when he was clapping Buu's cheeks, spirit fission was like a wet fart from the jump.

 

[Deleted member 198]

I suppose if they're not gonna use Gotenks himself, they might as well give his moves to other people... lol. Or they could use Gotenks.



Spirit fission being something that was built up for months only to fall on its face/be underwhelming is really just the culmination of a lot of what the manga does unfortunately.

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"Oh hey Moro fused with the Earth, it's a good thing Vegeta now has the exact ability to counter it"

/:

 

[HeroR]

I suppose if they're not gonna use Gotenks himself, they might as well give his moves to other people... lol. Or they could use Gotenks.



Spirit fission being something that was built up for months only to fall on its face/be underwhelming is really just the culmination of a lot of what the manga does unfortunately.

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That's true. I understand that in theory the three-way attack was cool, but the execution was both questionable and meh.

Vegeta more or less got the Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan treatment with Vegeta ironically helping in the same way he did in the Buu Saga because Toyo has no imagination.

He had to work to get it back in Super, and he did. And it's in Super where it became something more interesting IMO, because it was actually useful, unlike the Boo arc.

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In Super, I mean when it was introduced in the Buu Saga. It was a silver platter transformation on the level of Super Saiyan God without any lampshading how it wasn't earned by hardwork. That and I wanted to add that Blue did add to Vegeta's character since it made Vegeta asked for a master for the first time in his life. Even UI gave Goku development in that it made him acknowledge that he wasn't a self-made man and he gotten so far because he had helped. Unlike with Super Saiyan God Goku when Goku claimed he gotten his power until that point through training.

While him earning it back was cool, it still felt like a handed out power-up in the sense that he went from his Ultimate form having issues with Piccolo to 'rivaling' Blue in least than 24 hours, especially when people bitch for months about 17 getting to god level by 'fighter poachers' and that took him over ten years. That said, I do like Ultimate better since it allowed Piccolo to call out a major character flaw with Gohan that I have been complaining about for years and had fans brushed me off when ever I brought it up.

"Oh hey Moro fused with the Earth, it's a good thing Vegeta now has the exact ability to counter it"

/:

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I am still mad salty about that and I'm not even a Vegeta fan.

 

[HeroR]

Goku didn't really work for UI though, he was rusty before the tournament and happened to luck into it by eating a genki dama. And Vegeta's sparkle form was just him crying about Cabba for a few seconds.

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Saw this edit.

Goku and Vegeta has been working towards UI since they started training with Whis as Whis explained the concept back in Resurrection 'F'. And while Goku was rusty, he was still training himself since he hired Hit to kill him and was training with Krillin. So it wasn't like Goku was slacking off. How he gotten UI was accidental, but he was working for it.

I find it kind of disingenuous to call Blue Evolved just him crying about Cabba since he was deadset keeping his promise was clearly upset when Cabba got erased along with U6. That and Evolved at the end of the day is just an extension of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, not a brand new form on its own.

 

[Amnesty]

I really enjoyed Gohan's characterization in the Super anime. It was cool seeing someone who is a down to earth, dorky, family oriented guy living his life until he was pulled back in. He's like the Michael Corleone of DB or something. I liked how it was gradual too, with Gohan not really being aware of what was happening with Trunks because he was focused on his career and raising a baby, but then when Trunks is leaving Gohan is there to say bye and the look in his face sort of felt like he now knew and regretted not being there and this was the most he could do now that it was all over - he gets there still sweating and shows a face of solidarity. Seeing Trunks tear up right then makes it one of the best moments in all of Dragonball to me, because it was quietly powerful. That's what Super was able to bring to DB in some small ways.

 

[Lotus]

I really enjoyed Gohan's characterization in the Super anime. It was cool seeing someone who is a down to earth, dorky, family oriented guy living his life until he was pulled back in. He's like the Michael Corleone of DB or something. I liked how it was gradual too, with Gohan not really being aware of what was happening with Trunks because he was focused on his career and raising a baby, but then when Trunks is leaving Gohan is there to say bye and the look in his face sort of felt like he now knew and regretted not being there and this was the most he could do now that it was all over - he gets there still sweating and shows a face of solidarity. Seeing Trunks tear up right then makes it one of the best moments in all of Dragonball to me, because it was quietly powerful. That's what Super was able to bring to DB in some small ways.

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The episode where Trunks (who at that point was basically a surrogate for the audience) gradually accepted Gohan was a full on family man was easily my favorite Gohan related moment across both the DBS anime and manga. I was so fucking salty at the time at how much of a loser Gohan had become fighting-wise, but that episode made me at peace with it.

I agree with Lotus that Ultimate was great when it actually was the strongest, the whole concept doesn't work as well when Blue and Green haired people keep showing up as stronger, and it really got punked with the superior Ultra Instinct Omen "twist on base form" design but that's gone now/probably gonna be phased out anyway for Goku Blanco.

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Yea, it's like, the trade-off of it being plain and simple only really works (for me at least) if he's actually the strongest/strongest Saiyan. It then actually justifies not needing any flashiness.

But he's not, so it's like... who cares lol

UI was a lot cooler to watch at the time. Vegeta's new powers, even though that was a total disappointment, was more conceptually interesting than anything Gohan has going on. Same for whatever he plans on "stealing" from Beerus.