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NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,371
Yeah, they're a new player avatar race introduced alongside UI Omen for the avatars. Each race gets 3 types of avatars in Heroes (Hero, Elite, Berserker). The default names are Shandy for the Beerus-like one, Saria for the bunny and Kaser for the one with horns and spiked hair.
 

LSauchelli

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,036
Oh god please don't let them continue the anime with the Moro arc.
I hope they adapt Broly first. It's got tons of stuff that could be expanded. Like, you could have almost a full episode of Goku trying to go Ultra Instinct only to fail and go Blue instead! (But seriously, I want more Bardock and maybe complete the Fatherhood theme the Broly movie had going for it for a while).
 

LNBL

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
812
I hope they adapt Broly first. It's got tons of stuff that could be expanded. Like, you could have almost a full episode of Goku trying to go Ultra Instinct only to fail and go Blue instead! (But seriously, I want more Bardock and maybe complete the Fatherhood theme the Broly movie had going for it for a while).
That would be dope, but i'm afraid they will go with the Moro arc anyway -_-
 

LSauchelli

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,036
Of anything, I want them to start with Broly so they can at least have more time to bounce ideas to improve the Moro arc. It's not unsalvageable.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,680
At least I hope they could give Moro some backstory, even if it's just a short flashback like Jiren. Part of why he's such a boring antagonist is he's just a vanilla evil dude. He's not even charismatic like Freeza. Cell had the Gero backstory despite being an evil for evil sake villain. Buu had humour and weird side stories like with Mr. Satan and changed forms a few times. Moro is just bland.
 

LSauchelli

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,036
I didn't think the backstory itself was great, but I appreciated some contextualization which isn't usual for DB and was kinda refreshing. Just knowing where he was coming from emotionally added something DB antagonists have never really had.
Jiren was better for a few minutes in the manga where he basically had Superman's personality (initially refusing to participate in the tournament due to not wanting to destroy other universes), and then they added the "backstory".
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,448
1dk0VEN.jpg
 

Whipwhopper

Member
Oct 7, 2020
849
The thing I don't get about Goten and Trunks is why they are so hesitant to let them fight. I guess now they have Gohan and Vegeta to add to the Z fighters (and Buu technically...), but at the beginning of Z no one gave a shit about 4 year old gohan fighting for his life.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,272
The thing I don't get about Goten and Trunks is why they are so hesitant to let them fight. I guess now they have Gohan and Vegeta to add to the Z fighters (and Buu technically...), but at the beginning of Z no one gave a shit about 4 year old gohan fighting for his life.

I mean Chi-chi did but yeah I see your point

I guess Vegeta just has a conscience nowadays
 

Whipwhopper

Member
Oct 7, 2020
849
What is Beerus's job anyway? I thought he just destroys things that threaten their universes, but he kind of says time and time again he's not supposed to help. I mean they blatantly say in this very chapter that this is going to affect the entire galaxy, and he like begrudgingly says he'll help before noping out.
I mean Chi-chi did but yeah I see your point

I guess Vegeta just has a conscience nowadays

Chichi couldn't do shit now just like she couldn't then. You can't tell me goten and trunks aren't better to bring to a fight than Master Roshi or arguably even Tien
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,371
The thing I don't get about Goten and Trunks is why they are so hesitant to let them fight. I guess now they have Gohan and Vegeta to add to the Z fighters (and Buu technically...), but at the beginning of Z no one gave a shit about 4 year old gohan fighting for his life.
Out of universe, although he has never said it, Toriyama clearly regrets pushing those two as relevant fighters in the Buu Saga sidelining the older cast for no reason. In universe, there are other fighters so they don't need to push them to the frontlines, they've also been portraying them as too reckless or unskilled to really be part of the main battles.

Tien barely managed a single tie so yeah tbh coulda traded him for either of them
A tie with some guy who was beating up Gohan and Piccolo (although that entire episode was horribly written).
 

Tamanon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,720
I mean, there's probably a simpler reason. Are Goten and kid trunks popular at all?

Also, I think their skill set was basically basic Saiyan stuff. So they didn't really add anything to the team. Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku covered everything.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
Out of universe, although he has never said it, Toriyama clearly regrets pushing those two as relevant fighters in the Buu Saga sidelining the older cast for no reason. In universe, there are other fighters so they don't need to push them to the frontlines.

What gives you the impression that Toriyama regrets pushing Goten and Trunks? Weren't they and fusion some of the most popular and well liked parts of the Bus saga?

Dragon ball is still eating off of the concept of fusion almost two decades later
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,272
What gives you the impression that Toriyama regrets pushing Goten and Trunks? Weren't they and fusion some of the most popular and well liked parts of the Bus saga?

Dragon ball is still eating off of the concept of fusion almost two decades later

What people like doesn't necessarily = Toriyama likes

See: Tori reneging on Gohan being the new mc after Gohan came first in the popularity contest

Tori hears ya, Tori don't care lol
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,371
I mean, there's probably a simpler reason. Are Goten and kid trunks popular at all?

What gives you the impression that Toriyama regrets pushing Goten and Trunks? Weren't they and fusion some of the most popular and well liked parts of the Bus saga?

Dragon ball is still eating off of the concept of fusion almost two decades later

I don't think there's any wide modern popularity poll, but here are some older ones.
dragonballworld.fandom.com

Dragon Ball Popularity Polls

Results for this poll were given in Weekly Shonen Jump 1993 Issue No. 12 with Chapter 411. Son Gohan – 51,921 votes Son Goku – 51,256 votes Trunks – 29,627 votes Vegeta – 17,383 votes Piccolo – 9,454 votes Kulilin – 7,438 votes Mr. Satan – 1,892 votes Cell – 1,769 votes Bulma – 1,135 votes Dende...

Goten and Trunks did fine (especially Trunks, although I'm pretty sure they were adding up both Trunks together).

As for why I think it's all Toriyama? Look at the early marketing for Super. Goten and Trunks were pushed as part of the main cast by Toei's promotional material. They also were heavily featured in Toei original episodes/additional scenes, even getting inserted into RoF and getting a multi-parter original story. But that all slowly faded throughout when it became more and more clear Toriyama had no interest in them for his actual stories.

By the time of the ToP, they clearly gave up, getting much less presence in the new opening, little presence in marketing material and the anime itself showed them falling on their backs while kicking (basically, presenting them as completely unskilled fighters).

 
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John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
What people like doesn't necessarily = Toriyama likes

See: Tori reneging on Gohan being the new mc after Gohan came first in the popularity contest

Tori hears ya, Tori don't care lol

True
I don't think there's any wide modern popularity poll, but here are some older ones.
dragonballworld.fandom.com

Dragon Ball Popularity Polls

Results for this poll were given in Weekly Shonen Jump 1993 Issue No. 12 with Chapter 411. Son Gohan – 51,921 votes Son Goku – 51,256 votes Trunks – 29,627 votes Vegeta – 17,383 votes Piccolo – 9,454 votes Kulilin – 7,438 votes Mr. Satan – 1,892 votes Cell – 1,769 votes Bulma – 1,135 votes Dende...

Goten and Trunks did fine (especially Trunks, although I'm pretty sure they were adding up both Trunks together).

As for why I think it's all Toriyama? Look at the early marketing for Super. Goten and Trunks were pushed as part of the main cast by Toei's promotional material. They also were heavily featured in Toei original episodes/additional scenes, even getting inserted into RoF and getting a multi-parter original story. But that all slowly faded throughout when it became more and more clear Toriyama had no interest in them for his actual stories.

By the time of the ToP, they clearly gave up, getting much less presence in the new opening, little presence in marketing material and the anime itself showed them falling on their backs while kicking (basically, presenting them as completely unskilled fighters).

I don't think that any of this = that he regrets using them in the Bus saga. Toriyama himself said he's lazy. I don't think he's actively trying not to use them. They're just in the same spot that most of the human characters were post Saiyan Saga. He just doesn't write them into the story. I think their absence is exacerbated by the fact that two of Super's arcs were based on movies, two were tournaments and the other one only used 3 characters. There was no reason for them to fight in the U6 tournament (It also would have been a team of five saiyans) and if they fought in the ToP then the team would have had 5 saiyans on it and Toriyama probably wanted to give the non-saiyans one last hurrah.

Gohan didn't do anything until the ToP for similar reasons. If Super goes on to have 6 or 7 more arcs and Goten and Trunks are nowhere to be seen, then I might think Toriyama is actively excluding them.

Right now, I think they're both to blame, Toei and Toriyama. Toriyama didn't write them into the story and Toei likely didn't force the issue. After all, Future Trunks, Broly and Kale weren't Toriyama's ideas but he went with them when suggested. I'm sure of Toei pushed harder for those two to be used, then they would have been.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,157
Didn't the DB Online guy ask for a sketch from Toriyama and Toriyama couldn't even remember who Goten was? Not sure if that was tongue in cheek but that's the story usually brought up when Goten's lack of presence is talked about.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,371
Toriyama probably wanted to give the non-saiyans one last hurrah.

People already said this when the RoF movie came out though and yet it happened again with the ToP. It also happened with the Moro arc, although this time it's true we don't know if Toriyama had any involvement with the line up choice. It seems something rather active to me because it's not like these are big roles, and yet they're still excluded.

Regarding wanting more variety in the main cast, rather than just a bunch of Super Saiyans, that goes alongside the Buu Saga issue. The Buu Saga deliberately made all fighters who weren't Saiyans basically irrelevant, it was pushing for a Super Saiyan team, even when it didn't make much sense. The humans were retiring, but don't forget that scene where Piccolo was picked up as one the weakest fighters of the group by Dabura, who didn't even know about Goku and Vegeta having Super Saiyan at that point. Or Android 18 panicking after seeing a ki blast from Goten and Trunks who kept up with her while in costume in spite of lacking the super special training the others needed to go beyond her level and not even coming up during their talk about fusion.

So, dropping the idea of a Super Saiyan main team is basically the same as going against one of the elements that pushed Goten and Trunks forward in the first place.
 
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John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
People already said this when the RoF movie came out though and yet it happened again with the ToP. It also happened with the Moro arc, although this time it's true we don't know if Toriyama had any involvement with the line up choice. It seems something rather active to me because it's not like these are big roles, and yet they're still excluded.

Regarding wanting more variety in the main cast, rather than just a bunch of Super Saiyans, that goes alongside the Buu Saga issue. The Buu Saga deliberately made all fighters who weren't Saiyans basically irrelevant, it was pushing for a Super Saiyan team, even when it didn't make much sense. The humans were retiring, but don't forget that scene where Piccolo was picked up as one the weakest fighters of the group by Dabura, who didn't even know about Goku and Vegeta having Super Saiyan at that point. Or Android 18 panicking after seeing a ki blast from Goten and Trunk who kept up with her while in costume in spite of lacking the super special training the others needed to go beyond her level and not even coming up during their talk about fusion.

So, dropping the idea of a Super Saiyan main team is basically the same as going against one of the elements that pushed Goten and Trunks forward in the first place.

That's fair. The entire cast really got pushed aside prior to Super and more particularly the ToP to the point where their sudden boost in power seems almost absurd. Considering that most of the fighters in the ToP should far outclass most Z level opponents. That's a discussion for another day.

I used to think that the humans were cast aside because Toriayama just couldn't think of ways to boost them up to the level of Saiyans. That clearly wasn't the issue given how actual Saiyans began to be sidelined as well.

Perhaps Toriyama just doesn't know how to write an arc that contains multiple protagonists, or doesn't care to.
 

Nali

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,649
Aside from the series' "hey let's push our own kids into life and death battles" angle having always been a bad look for everyone involved, Goten and Trunks were gag characters for the entirety of Buu and that carried on into their appearances in Super, with a brief exception when Trunks met Future Trunks, and even that bit of gravitas didn't get away without being the subject of some jokes. Toriyama's a comedian first and an action writer second, and the kids just aren't serious characters.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,157
The thing I don't get about Goten and Trunks is why they are so hesitant to let them fight. I guess now they have Gohan and Vegeta to add to the Z fighters (and Buu technically...), but at the beginning of Z no one gave a shit about 4 year old gohan fighting for his life.

At the beginning of Z Gohan was like the second most powerful person (potentially even the most powerful) left to fight, though. He's like the only option and if Goku were alive/not injured, he probably wouldn't have been involved in either the Saiyan or Namek arcs.

Toriyama actually did a really good job sidelining Goku to allow other characters room to breathe.

I did like that one Yamcha isekai manga where the dude realized even knowing everything that would happen, a human couldn't do that much.
 

Skeeter49

I wish Jim Ryan would eat me
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,295
The thing I don't get about Goten and Trunks is why they are so hesitant to let them fight. I guess now they have Gohan and Vegeta to add to the Z fighters (and Buu technically...), but at the beginning of Z no one gave a shit about 4 year old gohan fighting for his life.
I think the thing is more that while Bulma and Chichi don't want them getting hurt, the rest don't think they're strong enough to do anything unless they're fused, and as Gotenks they're a liability due to his cockiness.

In general I hate that the "next generation" stuff from late Cell arc and Buu arc has been dropped.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,272
I think the thing is more that while Bulma and Chichi don't want them getting hurt, the rest don't think they're strong enough to do anything unless they're fused, and as Gotenks they're a liability due to his cockiness.

In general I hate that the "next generation" stuff from late Cell arc and Buu arc has been dropped.

I have a tiny insignificant shred of foolish hope that the focus on Pan in those early episodes of Super will eventually lead to her and Uub being Goku's students together
 

Skeeter49

I wish Jim Ryan would eat me
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,295
I have a tiny insignificant shred of foolish hope that the focus on Pan in those early episodes of Super will eventually lead to her and Uub being Goku's students together
Hopefully. It'd be great especially after GT fucked Pan over. Super has been mentioned more than I'd ever expect them to mention him, even the manga's last chapter, which I have mixed feelings on Uub being involved in that chapter, but it's definitely interesting that he's being brought up so much.

Pan getting shit on in GT is why I like giving Pan focus in my fanfics. She had great potential :( Female saiyans getting focus hopefully means great things for Pan.