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HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Goku just needed to punch him there because Moro was falling apart. It's the same reason Moro just died when that happened rather than just being weakened.


Because it's specifically noted in dialogue that Merus was sealing them so he couldn't regenerate? You might not like it, but it's plainly stated. Anyway, he recovered the arm that Merus just cut off (leaving it with the crystal) rather than regenerating any of the crystals that Merus broke. And he had even regenerated that arm after it was cut, so it's clear he wasn't limited in the same way he was regarding the broken/sealed crystals.



Yes, the part about the Grand Kai and Moro's original sealing is fairly vague, unlike the Merus battle. Regarding how strong Grand Supreme Kai was originally, it's all vague too since Moro's own power also doesn't have a clear level due to being mostly based on his energy absorption. Still, just like with the SSB situation before, keep in mind that whatever power Goku received just needed to power up his base, then SS/UI would add extra power on top of that. The power by itself doesn't need to be SS/UI level (although the clear implication with Uub's power here is that it surpassed the remaining powers of Vegeta and the others put together).

Except that wasn't really implied that Goku could do it because Moro was unstable. Only 'break the gem'. And honestly, Moro shouldn't have just died, but that is another matter.

The dialog can say all it wants Merus sealed Moro, but from all the panels all Merus did was break the gems using his staff and fist. There was nothing special about what he did outside of the text, which is an issue I always had with that section.

Goku had to do more than just power-up to UI. He had enough power to break Moro's hold (who was able to locked in a fully power UI Goku to being with), make an energy giant that pinned down Moro, and be strong enough to break the gem. Keep in mind, Moro has Merus' power, which is why Vegeta couldn't just fly over there and break the gem himself. So even if we say Goku only had 1/3 of his original power, that is still a lot and nothing suggests the Grand Supreme Kai even in his prime was that strong since him and South Supreme Kai got beating by a far weaker Moro. We actually do know Moro was weaker compared to UI Moro since he appeared to be a fairly old man in the flashback and not his younger self.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,376
Except that wasn't really implied that Goku could do it because Moro was unstable. Only 'break the gem'. And honestly, Moro shouldn't have just died, but that is another matter.
Vegeta talks about how he lost his mind and soon would self-destruct (blowing up the galaxy) even if the planet wasn't destroyed. So, in the end, when he loses Merus' power he just dies by himself.

The dialog can say all it wants Merus sealed Moro, but from all the panels all Merus did was break the gems using his staff and fist. There was nothing special about what he did outside of the text, which is an issue I always had with that section.
Yeah, if you just want to ignore the dialogue because you think visually it was nothing special there's nothing I can say here either.

We actually do know Moro was weaker compared to UI Moro since he appeared to be a fairly old man in the flashback and not his younger self.
That's after his powers were sealed though.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Vegeta talks about how he lost his mind and soon would self-destruct (blowing up the galaxy) even if the planet wasn't destroyed. So, in the end, when he loses Merus' power he just dies by himself.


Yeah, if you just want to ignore the dialogue because you think visually it was nothing special there's nothing I can say here either.


That's after his powers were sealed though.

Losing his mind isn't the same as his body falling apart and he will die. It's closer to Infinity Zamasu who became a near mindless loon, but was still powerful.

My point is that all we saw Moro do was break gems and someone had to say 'he's sealing'. In short, this was very lazy on Toyo's part not to show Merus doing anything special, especially when he broke a gem with his staff. Like, show sparks or something.

Before. We see Moro eat a planet while fighting the two Supreme Kais and he was fairly old looking:

301


You can tell by his hands this isn't young Moro. He just isn't as old as Namek Moro because he doesn't have the super long beard.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,376
Losing his mind isn't the same as his body falling apart and he will die. It's closer to Infinity Zamasu who became a near mindless loon, but was still powerful.
It's not just losing his mind. It's said by that point he'd detonate and self-destruct anyway even if they didn't destroy the planet. Note that when he dies there's still an explosion, it's just a harmless one since he lost Merus' power.

Before. We see Moro eat a planet while fighting the two Supreme Kais and he was fairly old looking:

301


You can tell by his hands this isn't young Moro. He just isn't as old as Namek Moro because he doesn't have the super long beard.
I see what you mean now regarding this, but I'd guess he just didn't have a full young Moro design by then considering how this supposed intermediate form never gets an actual full design.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
It's not just losing his mind. It's said by that point he'd detonate and self-destruct anyway even if they didn't destroy the planet. Note that when he dies there's still an explosion, it's just a harmless one since he lost Merus' power.


I see what you mean now regarding this, but I'd guess he just didn't have a full young Moro design by then considering how this supposed intermediate form never gets an actual full design.

I took it to mean that he was so crazy that he was losing control of his power, not that his body was itself unstable. Otherwise, Moro should have blew up when Goku touched him, or when Vegeta pounded the ground. And the explosion shouldn't have been harmless since even without Merus, Moro still had 73's power on top of his own. He should have at least nuked the planet.

Overall, nothing suggest that Moro when he fought the Grand Supreme Kai was anywhere near as strong as UI Moro or even 73 Moro. In fact, it appears that Moro who fought Signs Goku was stronger giving how Merus was shocked by how much stronger Moro became in a month. Toyo also didn't show the fight between the two Kais, only that South and Grand Supreme Kai were badly hurt while Moro was smiling and eating planets.
 

theMrCravens

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,313
I'm surprised how much I liked this finale.
I didn't expect much after seeing how silly Moro looked in the final panel last chapter, but the way he fought in latest one was more decent than I thought.

This on paper have interesting stuff that Toyo more or less shat on by the end of things:

-magical, planet eating goat with an interesting design (until they botched it by making Moro eat a Hit clone and his magic was just a Get Out of Free Jail card gimmick along with Moro himself being a by the numbers Dragon Ball villains)

- the return of the Grand Supreme Kai (who only got two major fights, forgotten about for most of the story, and came back only to cheerlead the reborn human who stole his power)

- Vegeta learns something new that makes him different from Goku (which turns into a big pile of nothing that just made Moro stronger and he became more of a Goku clone with his bootleg Spirit Bomb)

-Vegeta get redemption (which was extremely half ass and force)

- Goku trains under yet another angel (who was a boarderline Mary Sue with the death scene to match)

- the humans get involved (to fight fodder that most of them couldn't even finish and had to be saved by Goku and Krillin was just there to give Goku an unneeded Senzu)

There's more, but I will stop here.
Pretty much same issues I had with entire arc, but I don't mind seeing the other human fighters get some spotlight.
Too much focus on Goku and Vegeta on entire SUPER series right now.
I'd be nice if Gohan made a major comeback somehow.
 

Vito

One Winged Slayer - Formerly Undead Fantasy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,060
I'm terrified Toyo is going to rip off Cell one more time and have Moro come back stronger than ever next chapter.

God, when will this nightmare end? Fire that fucking hack already.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
I'm terrified Toyo is going to rip off Cell one more time and have Moro come back stronger than ever next chapter.

God, when will this nightmare end? Fire that fucking hack already.

Not going to happened when a nice section of the community likes the current arc despite its flaws. Granted, that is mostly going off of Reddit and the same ten people on Kanzenshuu. Then again, we had posters on Kanzenshuu who said that the Universal Survival Saga in the manga is their favorite Super arc. I mean, different tastes, but I'm not sure how anyone can call the manga version of the TOP good giving how rush and dull the fights were. I can get people preferring the Future Trunks Saga of the manga over the anime (even though I strongly disagree), but this honestly left me baffled.

That and I honestly don't think think the problems with the manga and Super as a whole can be fixed by firing Toyo. The biggest issue with Dragon Ball since the manga ending is people keep reusing the same script from Z. We saw this with GT which first copied Dragon Ball, then did a mixture of the Garlic Jr Saga meets Plan to Destroy All Saiyans, and then Fusion Reborn meets Android Saga. Even its ending with Omega was just a copy of the Buu Saga. Super also had this issue, although it wasn't as blatant and Toriyama's outline sagas didn't retread all that much outside of surface level like bringing Trunks and time traveling back.

Toyo is just the symptom of the problem since other Dragon Ball artists who do original Dragon Ball stories tend to copy pasta Z too much and I don't know why giving how wacky the Dragon Ball world is. Even Heroes, Dragon Ball official fanfic, copy pasta Z and now Super with the most standout being giving Cooler a painted golden form on top of his original form when Frieza literally says that he picked the color to mock the Super Saiyan so Cooler's Ultimate form could have literally been any color, but they chose gold because it's just easier to copy Golden Frieza.

It's my biggest frustrating with the franchise.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,319
The Moro arc would have been a lot better for me personally if it were split in two distinct arcs, kind of the same way the Android Saga and Cell Saga are all the same story, but there's a very distinct difference between them.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,718
Not going to happened when a nice section of the community likes the current arc despite its flaws. Granted, that is mostly going off of Reddit and the same ten people on Kanzenshuu. Then again, we had posters on Kanzenshuu who said that the Universal Survival Saga in the manga is their favorite Super arc. I mean, different tastes, but I'm not sure how anyone can call the manga version of the TOP good giving how rush and dull the fights were. I can get people preferring the Future Trunks Saga of the manga over the anime (even though I strongly disagree), but this honestly left me baffled.

That and I honestly don't think think the problems with the manga and Super as a whole can be fixed by firing Toyo. The biggest issue with Dragon Ball since the manga ending is people keep reusing the same script from Z. We saw this with GT which first copied Dragon Ball, then did a mixture of the Garlic Jr Saga meets Plan to Destroy All Saiyans, and then Fusion Reborn meets Android Saga. Even its ending with Omega was just a copy of the Buu Saga. Super also had this issue, although it wasn't as blatant and Toriyama's outline sagas didn't retread all that much outside of surface level like bringing Trunks and time traveling back.

Toyo is just the symptom of the problem since other Dragon Ball artists who do original Dragon Ball stories tend to copy pasta Z too much and I don't know why giving how wacky the Dragon Ball world is. Even Heroes, Dragon Ball official fanfic, copy pasta Z and now Super with the most standout being giving Cooler a painted golden form on top of his original form when Frieza literally says that he picked the color to mock the Super Saiyan so Cooler's Ultimate form could have literally been any color, but they chose gold because it's just easier to copy Golden Frieza.

It's my biggest frustrating with the franchise.

Overall Dragonball in modern times is a storytelling relic of the past and a victim of its own success. The OG run ended at the right time and became the progenitor of modern action shounen.

Bringing it back for a nostalgia run every now and then with cool looking sakuga movies is fine and whatever but when you actually need to make a continuous ongoing story again like the old times it exposes just how ancient it is compared to its modern contemporaries.(and some of its rivals at the time but let's move on) From the character development to the power systems it can't compete anymore and it can't be allowed to change and evolve cause then it would stray too far from what people think of as classic Dragonball and the powers that be view that as a NO NO.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Overall Dragonball in modern times is a storytelling relic of the past and a victim of its own success. The OG run ended at the right time and became the progenitor of modern action shounen.

Bringing it back for a nostalgia run every now and then with cool looking sakuga movies is fine and whatever but when you actually need to make a continuous ongoing story again like the old times it exposes just how ancient it is compared to its modern contemporaries.(and some of its rivals at the time but let's move on) From the character development to the power systems it can't compete anymore and it can't be allowed to change and evolve cause then it would stray too far from what people think of as classic Dragonball and the powers that be view that as a NO NO.

I don't think that is completely true when something like Ultra Instinct exists which isn't a power-up we have seen even in modern anime. There is reason why it caused CR to crash and is still beloved now, especially the anime form of it. It's a form while powerful is all about movement and the animation team flexing. As one Youtube put it, it was a form made for animation, while most forms were made with a manga in mind.

Super also did changed up the formate of Dragon Ball villains. Until Moro, none of them were evil for evil sake, or even evil since most of them were only against of the heroes because of the situation. Even the one truly evil villain, Zamasu, believed he was the hero of the story. While this isn't new most modern anime, this is a stark contrast to Dragon Ball who have well memorable, shallow villains. It also tone down the power scale of 'everyone villain is vastly more powerful than the last'. Beerus didn't get surpassed until arguably Jiren and Hit wasn't vastly stronger than Golden Frieza. Black started out fairly weak and had to climb in power and the same happened with Broly. Villains also didn't have transformations outside of Black nor did they have regen unless you count Future Zamasu's immorality.

It also gave far more power-breaking gimmick like the original Dragon Ball from Hit's Time-Skip, Dypso being the Flash, Merged Zamasu being a RPG boss and then becoming one with the multiverse, Future Zamasu being an immortal cheat code, magical girls, ect.

Super also did have a lot of character development, it just came from the extended cast, which is actually similar to what One Piece does. The main Straw Hats after their story arc is over don't really change. Like Nami for the most part is the same character she was after the Arlong Arc and that was over twenty years. I prefer it that way over force development like we saw with Gohan who kept relearning the same lessons outside of him finally dropping his smug super trait that bit him in the ass in the Cell and Buu Saga.

That and Super isn't really ancient compare to most of its contemporaries outside of One Piece, FMA, and HxH. Like MHA isn't light years ahead of Super in terms of story or even characters for that matter and Naruto ran into the same rapid power creep and wasted characters that Dragon Ball is accused of. And do we need to talk about Fairy Tail?

Super has made strives to be more creative, modernized, and Toriyama's original arcs are not just callbacks. Like, there is no Z counterpart of the TOP outside of it being a tournament. The issue comes when anyone other than Toriyama makes a story arc, which almost always end in a copy pasta Z or Toriyama's new ideas like Golden Cooler.
 

TMaakkonen

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,747
They specifically give Beerus reasons as to why not care which would be funny in other circumstances.

RoF - Low stakes, no need
U6T - GoDs cant fight each other, mortals tournament
FT - GoDs cant time travel
ToP - GoDs are forbidden, mortals tournament
Broly - Low stakes, no need

Moro arc actually doesn't have a good reason. Esp. with Moro dangering Galaxy. The only reason is that Beerus sucks but that itself... sucks.

Also how old are Goten & Trunks. Technically Saiyans are small for long and then growth spurt.
 
Oct 25, 2017
56,663
They specifically give Beerus reasons as to why not care which would be funny in other circumstances.

RoF - Low stakes, no need
U6T - GoDs cant fight each other, mortals tournament
FT - GoDs cant time travel
ToP - GoDs are forbidden, mortals tournament
Broly - Low stakes, no need

Moro arc actually doesn't have a good reason. Esp. with Moro dangering Galaxy. The only reason is that Beerus sucks but that itself... sucks.

Also how old are Goten & Trunks. Technically Saiyans are small for long and then growth spurt.
bc8a7ecd98369095336496318d0cd0dc.jpg

s-l300.jpg
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,791
I'm so over this shit. Nice touch with the Goku thumbs up tho

I was like man, imagine if this was a good arc, would've been a cool way to end it

Overall Dragonball in modern times is a storytelling relic of the past and a victim of its own success. The OG run ended at the right time and became the progenitor of modern action shounen.

Bringing it back for a nostalgia run every now and then with cool looking sakuga movies is fine and whatever but when you actually need to make a continuous ongoing story again like the old times it exposes just how ancient it is compared to its modern contemporaries.(and some of its rivals at the time but let's move on) From the character development to the power systems it can't compete anymore and it can't be allowed to change and evolve cause then it would stray too far from what people think of as classic Dragonball and the powers that be view that as a NO NO.

Pretty much, most modern shounen have been more engaging for me than DBS, even the very flawed ones I end up disliking. DBS in comparison is just running on fumes for me, but I never minded that as far as the anime goes, I don't necessarily mind watching a show almost purely for nostalgia's sake. It's nice to see stuff animated (well), and I've enjoyed stuff like Goku Black, Ultra Instinct, the slice of life elements, Broly movie, etc.

It's not that the problem is impossible to fix, but it's clear that they have no intention of doing so. Aa such, that constant feeling that the series is in this huge rut will never go away for me personally.

Maybe I'll reread/rewatch the OG series sometime, it has been awhile.
 

Lange

Member
Oct 22, 2020
256
Canada
Arc ends next month. We'll know a little about what comes next in the manga at Jump Fest, as usual. Hoping to go beyond EoZ finally.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
There were so many opportunities too... The writers even brought back Future Trunks out of nowhere, but he had no meaningful interaction with Goten and kid Trunks at all...

Future Trunks actually did get a lot of good interaction with Kid Trunks, including Trunks understanding how messed up his future counterpart's timeline was and was willing to go into the future and fight Black and Zamasu. Goten is the only one who had no meaningful interaction with Future Trunks.

I was like man, imagine if this was a good arc, would've been a cool way to end it



Pretty much, most modern shounen have been more engaging for me than DBS, even the very flawed ones I end up disliking. DBS in comparison is just running on fumes for me, but I never minded that as far as the anime goes, I don't necessarily mind watching a show almost purely for nostalgia's sake. It's nice to see stuff animated (well), and I've enjoyed stuff like Goku Black, Ultra Instinct, the slice of life elements, Broly movie, etc.

It's not that the problem is impossible to fix, but it's clear that they have no intention of doing so. Aa such, that constant feeling that the series is in this huge rut will never go away for me personally.

Maybe I'll reread/rewatch the OG series sometime, it has been awhile.

I can agree with that, mostly because it felt like Super really got into its strive from the Future Trunks Saga onward and felt like the show ended just when things were really cooking. Especially with the Broly movie ending with Frieza still wanting to recruit Broly and Goku finding a new training partner.

That said, funny hearing you say you're running of fumes with Super when you considered the anime has been off the air for over two years, so what exactly is there to be burnt off on? The Super manga?
 
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Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,791
That said, funny hearing you say you're running of fumes with Super when you considered the anime has been off the air for over two years, so what exactly is there to be burnt off on? The Super manga?

Running (Or ran, whatever lol) out of fumes in that modern DB is only capable of doing the bare minimum to entertain me.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Running (Or ran, whatever lol) out of fumes in that modern DB is only capable of doing the bare minimum to entertain me.

Fair enough. It never bothered me too much since Dragon Ball even at its peak is pretty shallow, but I didn't mind because what it did do it did very well and never tried to be more than it was unlike some anime that try a bit too hard *coughMHA*. That said, Super did surprised me more than once, like who thought the Future Trunks Saga would end with the entire future multiverse being nuked and the damage is unrepairable.

That and most of the characters are extremely charming despite being shallow. Like Goku remains one my favorite characters even today and he's probably one of the shallowest characters in anime.

Also, despite Super running on nostalgia, for better and worst, it still manage to pull in a new generation of fans despite all the new anime. You would be surprised how many people who are Dragon Ball fans, yet never watched Z. So there is something to the shallowness otherwise Super would be like Digimon.
 

TMaakkonen

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,747
I kinda like Future Trunks' Spirit Sword conceptually because it actually ended up as useless.

What looked like total asspull actually didn't matter at all.
 

lemonade

Member
May 8, 2018
3,044
Actually liked this chapter. A good ending to this unbalanced arc.

At least Vegeta did something at the end, even though when he finally get to use spirit bomb, it's used to power up Goku...

EDIT: Also it made "end of Z" make more sense now in the context of Super, Oob has divine power and can possibly tap into UI, a good enough reason for Goku to train him.
 

LSauchelli

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,036
Actually liked this chapter. A good ending to this unbalanced arc.

At least Vegeta did something at the end, even though when he finally get to use spirit bomb, it's used to power up Goku...

EDIT: Also it made "end of Z" make more sense now in the context of Super, Oob has divine power and can possibly tap into UI, a good enough reason for Goku to train him.
But didn't the Super movie contradict "end of Z" already? Bulma revealed that she basically uses the Dragon Balls every few years to get a bit younger. I feel they should maybe re-adapt some of the stuff from end of Z, but don't be tied to every detail from it.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,729
Have we considered that maybe Goten and Trunks are doing the same thing as Bulma, and using the dragon to appear younger as they age?
 

LSauchelli

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,036
Is a joke. But I think Goten/Trunks won't advance until Toriyama creates new designs for them.
They will either jump to post End-of-Z where there already are designs for them as 'adults', or update the designs so Trunks looks like he did in his special back in the day.

Or they will stay chibi for a few more years.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,684
I think Toriyama has neat story ideas and knows how to make hype characters but he isn't very interested in or focused on deeper characterization that much. Toei was doing some work expanding on that a little in the Super anime, going in the right direction with slice of life stuff and giving the antagonists some more depth than the usual DB villains. It kinda makes me wish the anime could come back as I feel they were starting to get into a good flow with the characters and could have kept doing more. Or maybe not, but Super was showing potential for Dragonball to grow in that regard.
 

LSauchelli

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,036
I think Toriyama has neat story ideas and knows how to make hype characters but he isn't very interested in or focused on deeper characterization that much. Toei was doing some work expanding on that a little in the Super anime, going in the right direction with slice of life stuff and giving the antagonists some more depth than the usual DB villains. It kinda makes me wish the anime could come back as I feel they were starting to get into a good flow with the characters and could have kept doing more. Or maybe not, but Super was showing potential for Dragonball to grow in that regard.
Well, they now have two full arcs to adapt and expand in Broly and Moro where they can fix any issue and expand what needs expanding. I kinda want to see how Bardock got to Freeza and how did he leave a strong enough impression on him that he remembered years later during the Namek saga.


I'm sure the anime will end up being better for the long wait.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
It's okay at least we have Digimon!

):

Honestly, watch Dragon Quest Dai. It's really good from what I've heard. I'm waiting for it to get further along so I can binge watch.

I think Toriyama has neat story ideas and knows how to make hype characters but he isn't very interested in or focused on deeper characterization that much. Toei was doing some work expanding on that a little in the Super anime, going in the right direction with slice of life stuff and giving the antagonists some more depth than the usual DB villains. It kinda makes me wish the anime could come back as I feel they were starting to get into a good flow with the characters and could have kept doing more. Or maybe not, but Super was showing potential for Dragonball to grow in that regard.

Toriyama has never really been into deep characters. The most complex characters in Dragon Ball can be counted on one hand and you will have fingers left over. What Toriyama is great at is making shallow characters interesting, engaging, and fun. Which is why Frieza is such a beloved villain even today despite unironically filling out the evil overlord checklist that was old when Frieza was created.

Granted, Toriyama has been making more deeper characters for modern Dragon Ball, despite popular belief, which is how we got Beerus, Zamasu who Toriyama said was hard to write since he was a villain who wholly believed that he was doing good, Hit who is assassin with an honor code and to an evil bastard like Tao and what Tien tried to be, Jiren who is damage goods but still tries to be good, Broly who is basically an abused child who got exile for being too powerful and out of spite, Champa who is like Beerus but not as petty but more spoiled, and Frieza getting character growth while still remaining an unrepentant evil bastard.

The problem with the Super manga is that Toyo abides by Toriyama's old shallow characters design, but he doesn't do anything interesting to make them engaging outside of copying of what Toriyama did twenty years. Which makes shallow and boring characters.
 
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