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HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
My thoughts on the chapter, warning long read:

I'm kinda annoyed that Toyo was so lazy that he couldn't be bothered showing Meerus moving Goku and the others out of the way. It's comes off as cheap. And how did Moro fail to noticed this?

I have to wondered why he couldn't sense that Merus wasn't a god before since he could sense ki before this moment and he fought Merus once already. Or are they saying that Meerus can protrude mortal ki.

Good paneling for the fight and of course Toyo gives this to his OC battle. I have a feeling he has been waiting to do this for a long time.

Why did Whis just left Jaco?

Doing favors? It's literally your goddamn job Beerus! And even if it was a 'favor', Goku and the other saved your lousy ass last arc since they had to be in the TOP because of your bad management. Like, urg. I hate manga Beerus.

I want to save the food, screw the universe that I'm supposed to protect and nearly got erased over because I did a bad job. Where's the migraine medication.

Yeah, let's leave the person behind who has a habit of breaking angel code, I'm sure he'll be fine.

What is up with Toyo putting a healing cap on healers?

I find it weird that it's perfect fine for someone like Whis to break time law and make a new timeline for Trunks and Mai and yet fighting a mortal is punished by eraser. Especially when you considered breaking time was so taboo that it upset Whis and Beerus ordered Goku not to tell Zeno because it would pissed him off. So you can't fight mortals, but altering history despite having rules against it, A okay! Who makes these rules?

Those eye beams on Moro don't look right or is it just me.

Omen looks lousy in that transformation shot.

Oh god, that panel with Goku flying forward.

Look, Moro is using UI better than Goku.

We're going to totally ripoff Yu Yu Hakusho and the Cell Saga to 'trigger' UI, despite that isn't even how it worked in your manga Toyo. Didn't Goku get UI because he remembered the teachings of he had before. What happened to that. You're trying to copy the anime, the trigger was Goku getting his butt kicked. Not watching someone die, otherwise 17 would had done that. Then again, Goku did go UI willing after he thought 17 died in the manga, but Goku also said that he was going to let go.

Toyo, please stop making character do that strange hunchback, turn your head pose.

The Grand Priest will be pissed at you for......doing your goddamn job. What.....

Angels are not neutral. They are supposed to train and guide their Gods of Destruction to do their jobs, which is a good thing for balance. They just can't directly interfere, except when they do apparently.

Looks less like him sealing and just breaking gems, but I guess that's one way to avoid the plot hole of why did the gem come back after Moro lost his arm twice.

I don't get why the Grand Priest sent an angel to work with the police if he wanted to teach him to be neutral.

Help do what against Moro? Tickle him?

Merus: I want to protect the universe against evil criminals, so I'm willing to disappear against Moro.

So, why didn't you take out Frieza who is currently taking over planets and killing people? With your moves, you wouldn't even risk your existence doing it.

So Whis let his brother died because he couldn't be bothered to tell his God of Destruction to do his job. Wonderful.

You should have thought of that Beerus when you refused to do your freaking job. Your ass was already put on the line for this just an arc ago.

That isn't why Goku spare his enemies as Vegeta noted. He does so because killing them isn't the point. It's all about testing himself. Goku for the most part don't really care if someone is reforms. He may hope they do, but it's never a priority. That and he kinda stopped doing that after Freeza since he had no problem trying to kill Cell, Buu, and tried to outright erased Zamasu. He was more heartless in the anime where he never once offered Zamasu nor Black mercy.

When have seen the patrol reformed criminals? We just seen them lock them up.

These flashback panels would have been good months ago. Now it feels too late since Toyo is obviously trying to make us care for his OC who is about to disappear.

Moro's facial expressions in this chapter are golden.

And here we have the ripoff 16 moment. Although, I will give Toyo some credit that Merus is more of a character than 16 was, but this falls flat since this feels force.

And we have Goku showing more emotional over Merus biting it then Future Trunks and Mai showed when their timeline got erased from existence, or anyone getting erased in the TOP. Glad to see where Toyo's priorities lie.

Objectively speaking, this chapter was very good. I would actually say the best Toyo did since the Future Trunks Saga. The action was great, matching Goku vs Merged Zamasu, it had an emotional scene that was done really well, we get to see Goku's thoughts about how he protects the universe unintentionally, and we're left with a nice cliffhanger.

However, this chapter despite being objectively good run the issue that Merus is a poorly written character that Toyo tried to save at the last minute, Moro is also a nothing character, and Merus wouldn't even have to die if Beerus did his job and him talking about doing favors just pisses me off. In fact, this chapter made Manga Beerus completely unredeemable to me and I wish he dies. Finally, Goku would look like an ass that after this that he doesn't go and find Frieza to either arrest him or kill him since he's a person going around conquering and destroying planets and the patrol can't stop him and Merus' wish is for Goku to 'protect the galaxy'. Although he did say 'this galaxy', so I guess the rest of the universe is whatever.

I do find it cool and interesting that Merus is basically a good version of Zamasu. Both had a strong sense of justice, but while Zamasu's sense of justice made him despise mortals, Merus grew to love them to the point of giving his life for them. Too bad this theme was save to the last possible second and not fully developed. That and this doesn't really work with Manga Zamasu sense he showed that his justice was just a thinly veiled excuse to be the sole ruler of the universe, while Anime Zamasu believed in his own lie.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,637
Costa Rica
I don't think he walked back on it (at least not in this arc), he was just trying to come up with an explanation for why UI suddenly couldn't be used after the ToP. The actual problem is that his introduction for UI during the ToP felt way too natural since it was built as the conclusion of his development, so Goku being unable to use it afterwards (to fit in with the Broly movie) felt odd from the start. Bringing up the "trigger" stuff in this arc is just attempting to make sense of it all.

The Anime TOP makes it clear the trigger is physical. Taking your body to its absolute limit. They even comment on how every time Goku triggers it, it will be harder for him to trigger it again, as he would need to keep pusing his body further and further.

That was it. That was everything we needed. Even fucking heroes does it this way.

Toyotaro is now suddenly trying to make it an emotional trigger to ape on SS and SS2 moments from Z.

It's dreadful.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,575
It's kind of impressive that despite Merus being a more fleshed out character than 16, his death feels so much worse/forced.
 

brinstar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,257
I don't get the hangups with Beerus, I thought his job was to destroy shit?

I thought this chapter was mostly fine in a vacuum (UI mechanics flip flopping aside) but my main problem with it is that it doesn't feel like the capper to what the rest of this arc has been about. I figured this climax was coming, but then they should've focused more on Goku and Merus' relationship to bring this chapter home. What's the point of all the Vegeta training panels if he gets swept to the side in one chapter? What's the point in starting the arc with Buu and Dai Kaioshin if you're just gonna chuck 'em out?
 

Kagari

潜在能力解放
Member
Oct 24, 2017
4,478
It's kind of impressive that despite Merus being a more fleshed out character than 16, his death feels so much worse/forced.
16 works because Gohan didn't know him. Gohan was already angry before 16 was killed, 16 was just the final straw that broke the camel's back.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
I don't get the hangups with Beerus, I thought his job was to destroy shit?

I thought this chapter was mostly fine in a vacuum (UI mechanics flip flopping aside) but my main problem with it is that it doesn't feel like the capper to what the rest of this arc has been about. I figured this climax was coming, but then they should've focused more on Goku and Merus' relationship to bring this chapter home. What's the point of all the Vegeta training panels if he gets swept to the side in one chapter? What's the point in starting the arc with Buu and Dai Kaioshin if you're just gonna chuck 'em out?

It was said in the Future Trunks Saga that part of the job of a God of Destruction was to destroy evil mortals who abused the knowledge of the gods. Which is why the Supreme Kais can't interfere with mortal man affairs since their job is to watch and guide mortals to the righteous path. This is even stated in the Super manga where Kibito actually says that Beerus was supposed to kill Buu, but he was asleep.

The TOP, was all Beerus' laziness coming back to bit him in the ass since the Gods of Destruction with the best mortal ranking were gods who actively destroyed evil in their universe. Even U11 was the best of the worst with Belmond destroying evil mortals per his bio on Toei's website.

So in short, the role of God of Destruction is to destroy planets so new life can begin and destroy evil mortals who abuse the god's knowledge.
 

Zan

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,416
So has there been fan backlash to this chapter with the Japanese audience as well? If so, I can see them skipping over this arc for whenever Super2 anime comes out. Merch money means they probably won't though.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
So has there been fan backlash to this chapter with the Japanese audience as well? If so, I can see them skipping over this arc for whenever Super2 anime comes out. Merch money means they probably won't though.

We don't have any merch for this arc now. Nothing is stopping them since they don't need the anime to sell toys or to be put in Dragon Ball Heroes.
 

Kagari

潜在能力解放
Member
Oct 24, 2017
4,478
So has there been fan backlash to this chapter with the Japanese audience as well? If so, I can see them skipping over this arc for whenever Super2 anime comes out. Merch money means they probably won't though.
Japanese fans don't really care about the manga much.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,370
The 5ch thread about Super talks about the manga and I barely see complaints there. On the other hand, it's true the manga just doesn't have a lot of attention in general when you look at it overall (twitter/sales).

The Anime TOP makes it clear the trigger is physical. Taking your body to its absolute limit. They even comment on how every time Goku triggers it, it will be harder for him to trigger it again, as he would need to keep pusing his body further and further.

But that doesn't fit with the manga at all, so I don't get why you're saying it's trying to ape the anime? There was no physical trigger.

Back when Goku was training with Merus, it was already stated in this arc itself that the trigger is probably going through great emotional shock, but keeping control of his emotions (which fits the scene in the manga ToP where Goku mentions 17's "death" but is still calm right before going UI).

040.jpg

042.jpg

Like I said though, this still is awkward considering how natural UI seemed to be in the ToP, with this retcon coming since there had to be an explanation for no UI in the Broly movie.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Another thing. I'm sick of fans saying that Goku and the others depends on the gods too much and Beerus is right.

Beerus is a hypocrite. When he said that, the entire situation was quite literally the god's fault. Zamasu was a god choosing to become the new Supreme Kai despite having several mental issues and went off the deep end and killed his own master. He then stole the body of a mortal, killed him and his entire family, and then jumped timelines to kill a future version of his master and recruit himself. They then used the Super Dragon Balls again (which are the god's Dragon Balls that mortals can't even used since they can't speak the language of the gods) to make Zamasu immortal and then destroy those Dragon Balls so no one can used it against them. They then took the Supreme Kais flatfooted and murdered them, which killed the Gods of Destruction and deactivated the angels, which allowed Zamasu to do literally anything he wants. So the mortals in the future timeline are made to suffer and die because the gods screwed up in two timelines and the head god Zeno knew nothing of this until it was too late and he had to destroy the timeline. So how is this an example of the mortals depending on the gods?

Furthermore, the entire TOP happened because the gods did such a poor job managing their universe and the mortals had to bail their asses out by fighting other universes to the death.

The only example of the gods interfering is with Frieza. So, it's weird that people keep saying 'Beerus was right' while ignoring the context in which he made such a statement.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
The 5ch thread about Super talks about the manga and I barely see complaints there. On the other hand, it's true the manga just doesn't have a lot of attention in general when you look at it overall (twitter/sales).



But that doesn't fit with the manga at all, so I don't get why you're saying it's trying to ape the anime? There was no physical trigger.

Back when Goku was training with Merus, it was already stated in this arc itself that the trigger is probably going through great emotional shock, but keeping control of his emotions (which fits the scene in the manga ToP where Goku mentions 17's "death" but is still calm right before going UI).



Like I said though, this still is awkward considering how natural UI seemed to be in the ToP, with this retcon coming since there had to be an explanation for no UI in the Broly movie.

Except Goku got Omen the first time by remembering his masters. So the emotional shock makes little sense.

Also, giving that the Broly movie was being written before the USS, Toyo would have known UI wouldn't be in the movie, so him putting himself in this hole makes no sense.
 

brinstar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,257
It was said in the Future Trunks Saga that part of the job of a God of Destruction was to destroy evil mortals who abused the knowledge of the gods. Which is why the Supreme Kais can't interfere with mortal man affairs since their job is to watch and guide mortals to the righteous path. This is even stated in the Super manga where Kibito actually says that Beerus was supposed to kill Buu, but he was asleep.

The TOP, was all Beerus' laziness coming back to bit him in the ass since the Gods of Destruction with the best mortal ranking were gods who actively destroyed evil in their universe. Even U11 was the best of the worst with Belmond destroying evil mortals per his bio on Toei's website.

So in short, the role of God of Destruction is to destroy planets so new life can begin and destroy evil mortals who abuse the god's knowledge.
I guess I don't remember them saying his job was to straight up kill evil people. Even so I don't mind him grumbling about saving Goku and co. here because he's an asshole lol
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,370
I think that's a non official figure, I could be wrong though

It's by Megahouse which is a Bandai affiliate.

Except Goku got Omen the first time by remembering his masters. So the emotional shock makes little sense.

But he can already use Omen at will. So, the emotion part seems to be for UI proper, which again, fits with the manga ToP scene even if it's clearly an awkward retcon.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
It's by Megahouse which is a Bandai affiliate.



But he can already use Omen at will. So, the emotion part seems to be for UI proper, which again, fits with the manga ToP scene even if it's clearly an awkward retcon.

Except it only triggered Omen. Goku completed UI by 'being calm'. He wasn't even that emotional about 17 dying.


I guess I don't remember them saying his job was to straight up kill evil people. Even so I don't mind him grumbling about saving Goku and co. here because he's an asshole lol

Asshole he may be, but him not doing his job after he barely dodged being erased for his bad job performance is too dumb to live on Beerus' part.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Of course. Toei will fix it.

There's no fixing the mess Toyo did with UI since Goku using Omen but not the completed form would make no sense in the anime unless they adapt how he did it the manga, which has its own issues. And Goku screwing it up is Toyo's Goku is a meat head characterization.

Not to mention the character assassination of Beerus.
 

Vito

One Winged Slayer - Formerly Undead Fantasy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,038
There's no fixing the mess Toyo did with UI since Goku using Omen but not the completed form would make no sense in the anime unless they adapt how he did it the manga, which has its own issues. And Goku screwing it up is Toyo's Goku is a meat head characterization.

Not to mention the character assassination of Beerus.
Toei will find a way. I trust them completely.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Toei will find a way. I trust them completely.

This reads almost like satire, but I know you mean it.

I'm honestly not sure how they can fix Beerus since the entire arc depends on him being lousy or make the anime version of UI work. Or Moro's second wish since that's how we got the fodder army.

As for Merus, while he has the bones to be fixed using this last chapter as a basics, I don't want to legitimize Toyo's OC. Same with Moro to an extent or Hit deformed U7 counterpart 73.


Every. Fucking. Time

toyocycle.jpg

Who made this?
 

Vito

One Winged Slayer - Formerly Undead Fantasy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,038
This reads almost like satire, but I know you mean it.

I'm honestly not sure how they can fix Beerus since the entire arc depends on him being lousy or make the anime version of UI work. Or Moro's second wish since that's how we got the fodder army.

As for Merus, while he has the bones to be fixed using this last chapter as a basics, I don't want to legitimize Toyo's OC. Same with Moro to an extent or Hit deformed U7 counterpart 73.




Who made this?
Simple. Beerus is asleep during the whole arc.
 

TMaakkonen

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,747
The fix for Beerus I would try is that he is purposely testing Goku. Moro allows him to reach new fights. He would orchestrate with Supreme Kai that Moro actually hasn't destroyed too many "high-life" planets. New Namek is pretty wild country-like. Maybe add in anime that some of fodder prisoners die on certain planets after the release, which would be Beerus' doing but restored Moro wouldn't care too much. Hell, maybe he'll let Moro destroy unneeded planets.

Moro will die to MUI Goku, and thus will end up in Earth's Hell. Moro is at Yemma's place but laughs at him: "This is but another prison. Not even this will hold me back and I will return stronger as usual." Then Beerus appears at this moment. "Well, you certainly pushed Goku to new heights. But your nature causes unneeded destruction. You won't be needed anymore. Hakai"

I actually wrote fanfic lol

An attempt was made?
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,637
Costa Rica
This reads almost like satire, but I know you mean it.

I'm honestly not sure how they can fix Beerus since the entire arc depends on him being lousy or make the anime version of UI work. Or Moro's second wish since that's how we got the fodder army.

As for Merus, while he has the bones to be fixed using this last chapter as a basics, I don't want to legitimize Toyo's OC. Same with Moro to an extent or Hit deformed U7 counterpart 73.




Who made this?

Kagari found it, it's been a thing since the Goku Black manga
 

Vito

One Winged Slayer - Formerly Undead Fantasy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,038
But Whis and Merus are on Earth because Beerus ordered them there for food. And why wouldn't Whis wake him when a goat is literally eating his universe and Beerus seems to take his job a little more serious in the anime.
Then Beerus fights Moro then. I don't know.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Kagari found it, it's been a thing since the Goku Black manga

Strangely, this is the first time I'm seen this.

Although, the last part can't happen since this arc is Toyo's baby and all we got are badly written OCs who took over the story and Dragon Ball Z greatest hits with no sense of irony. So basically a Dragon Ball fanfic from 2005.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,703
The only fix I would care about would be giving me some Broly level animation for the fights so I can do my best to ignore all the other dumb shit. And that ain't happening
 

Kagari

潜在能力解放
Member
Oct 24, 2017
4,478
Strangely, this is the first time I'm seen this.

Although, the last part can't happen since this arc is Toyo's baby and all we got are badly written OCs who took over the story and Dragon Ball Z greatest hits with no sense of irony. So basically a Dragon Ball fanfic from 2005.
I'd unironically rather read those.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,703
I still remember this one DBZ fanfic back in the day on the IGN Dragonball boards that I really liked, for the life of me I can't remember the details of it, just that I loved it.
 

Cordy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,303
Toyo just doesn't care, ugh.

I'd take 16th's death or Merus's any day of the week. Merus was literally styling on dude here and he was literally going out the way he wanted rather than 16 being bitched out and dying like he did.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Another issue that remember. The whole Goku and Merus' relationship is underdeveloped when you compared it to the training that Vegeta did. We actually saw what Vegeta's training looks like and Vegeta got a whole chapter fighting Zarbon-lite showing his progress and Moro even commenting on it, while the most we got out of Goku and Merus is Merus giving more details on UI while beating Goku up. So Vegeta being sidelined the chapter after he does something cool is literally Ultimate Gohan all over again, all the way down to Vegeta being used to empowered the villain.

Also not helping that Goku himself in his arc honestly felt unneeded, same with UI. Goku until he arrived on Earth didn't do anything. He was just there to teleport people. At least in the Buu Saga he did stuff, although his actions weren't all positive. UI is also a lousy choice to go against a being who sucks energy since the form is already energy draining enough. The only reason it works is because Toyo retcon Moro's power so Goku can dodged them when before he clearly had an area effect.
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
12,836
So, reading the official version of the chapter, I do think the whole thing came off better than I thought it would. And, I'll give Toyo credit in that I genuinely enjoy what he did with Dende during this arc.

It doesn't change that Meerus was a bland OC whose relationship with Goku was mostly off-screen, and Moro has become such a bland generic wall, and I absolutely could not care less about the final battle. Or how unnecessary UI has been in this arc, or how bad Toyo's grasp on Beerus, Goku, Piccolo and most of the rest of cast's characterization is, or the multiple other problems with this arc.

I'm guessing this arc is going to finish in November/December, and we'll finally get to something new in 2021.
 

Kagari

潜在能力解放
Member
Oct 24, 2017
4,478
Another issue that remember. The whole Goku and Merus' relationship is underdeveloped when you compared it to the training that Vegeta did. We actually saw what Vegeta's training looks like and Vegeta got a whole chapter fighting Zarbon-lite showing his progress and Moro even commenting on it, while the most we got out of Goku and Merus is Merus giving more details on UI while beating Goku up. So Vegeta being sidelined the chapter after he does something cool is literally Ultimate Gohan all over again, all the way down to Vegeta being used to empowered the villain.

Also not helping that Goku himself in his arc honestly felt unneeded, same with UI. Goku until he arrived on Earth didn't do anything. He was just there to teleport people. At least in the Buu Saga he did stuff, although his actions weren't all positive. UI is also a lousy choice to go against a being who sucks energy since the form is already energy draining enough. The only reason it works is because Toyo retcon Moro's power so Goku can dodged them when before he clearly had an area effect.
I said this before but you can remove Goku from the arc entirely until the Earth part and the only thing that changes is they need a new vehicle. He's been shoved in only because "he's the MC" and not because he's been the driving force of the story or anything. UI never should have been an option here either, it feels forced in because "new shiny" and not because of any forward storytelling. Awful.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
I said this before but you can remove Goku from the arc entirely until the Earth part and the only thing that changes is they need a new vehicle. He's been shoved in only because "he's the MC" and not because he's been the driving force of the story or anything. UI never should have been an option here either, it feels forced in because "new shiny" and not because of any forward storytelling. Awful.

Until I read that Toyo cycle chart, I never realized that this was something that happened in every arc since the Future Trunks Saga. Namely, Goku is the least important person in the arc and then shoved into important at the last second. Like how he didn't even fight or interact with Black with him being Vegeta's rival despite Black stealing Goku's body and killing him. Goku got Zamasu who was side butter who was so weak that according to Goku, Trunks could beat up. Yet, he got the limelight to fight Merged Zamasu and try to erased. Then the TOP where Goku literally knocked out no, did nothing important, and just bitch smacked around by Jiren until the last three or so chapters.

And I honestly believe UI was put in because Toyo wanted his OC villain to only be beating by peak Goku. Like, 'yeah, I wrote a villain so awesome that it took an angel sacrificing himself and the completed form of UI to beat him'.
 
Last edited:

Kagari

潜在能力解放
Member
Oct 24, 2017
4,478
Until I read that Toyo cycle chart, I never realized that this was something that happened in every arc since the Future Trunks Saga. Namely, Goku is the least important person in the arc and then shoved into important at the last second. Like how he didn't even fight or interact with Black with him being Vegeta's rival despite Black stealing Goku's body and killing him. Goku got Zamasu who was side butter who was so weak that according to Goku, Trunks could beat up. Yet, he got the limelight to fight Merged Zamasu and try to erased. Then the TOP where Goku literally knocked out no, did nothing important, and just bitch smacked around by Jiren until the last three or so chapters.
Yep. Goku is nothing but a prop in the DBS manga. Which is just another reason why I can't buy him suddenly caring about Merus. Toyotarou failed to have Goku really care about anyone.
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,086
Peru
Hey everyone! What's up? Should I read this manga-exclusive (for now) arc? I have no idea who Moro is and what's going on and since we have no idea when the anime will come back, I might try reading the manga.