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disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
BioWare's best creative forces came from writing lines from elevator conversations, from QA, and other non-traditional places. Put some respect on the creative forces there that aren't the well-known auteurs we always assume to be responsible for the games success.
 

Raigor

Member
May 14, 2020
15,143
If there's one thing Andromeda and Anthem proved, is that the old veterans weren't as good as they were 10-20 years ago, Casey Hudson and Darrah leaving might end up being a net positive for BioWare, under their supervision they released Andromeda and Anthem and i hardly doubt DA4 is going to end up being a mess like Andromeda or Anthem.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
I don't even know why there is a Dragon Age 4. First game was the only legit great one. Whatever happened to that classic CRPG gameplay in the sequels ...

The classic CRPG formula in the first game was terrible on consoles, and you can't keep a AAA series afloat with just CRPG fans. This is part of the reason a remaster isn't worth it; Origins would need at the very least a complete combat retooling.

Inquisition is my favorite, partly because the combat is vastly improved on console, partly because its the first plot to do something interesting with the setting of Thedas at large, partly because it still has an excellent cast. Sure the open world sucks, but that's largely skippable on replays and I can curate my experience very well at this point.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
If there's one thing Andromeda and Anthem proved, is that the old veterans weren't as good as they were 10-20 years ago, Casey Hudson and Darrah leaving might end up being a net positive for BioWare, under their supervision they released Andromeda and Anthem and i hardly doubt DA4 is going to end up being a mess like Andromeda or Anthem.
I agree with the idea that vets aren't necessarily going to shit gold with every creative project, though to be fair to Darrah IIRC he was brought on to Anthem/Andromeda to get those things shipped super late.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,805
I agree with the idea that vets aren't necessarily going to shit gold with every creative project, though to be fair to Darrah IIRC he was brought on to Anthem/Andromeda to get those things shipped super late.
True. And he quite literally managed to get those games to a state they could even ship. He was pulled from Dragon Age both times to try to salvage both projects. I wouldn't pin their failure on him.
 

gothmog

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,434
NY
If there's one thing Andromeda and Anthem proved, is that the old veterans weren't as good as they were 10-20 years ago, Casey Hudson and Darrah leaving might end up being a net positive for BioWare, under their supervision they released Andromeda and Anthem and i hardly doubt DA4 is going to end up being a mess like Andromeda or Anthem.
I don't know if you can pin it on one or two people. Bioware has been sliding since the founders left. At this point they are probably more of a zombie company that functions because of business processes than some high functioning developer. I have worked for a few companies like that in the past where they are still issuing paychecks but nobody is really driving. Products get released but they are mostly half assed because corporate pressure, lack of vision, and lack of creative passion just suck the life out of people doing the work.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,805
I don't know if you can pin it on one or two people. Bioware has been sliding since the founders left. At this point they are probably more of a zombie company that functions because of business processes than some high functioning developer. I have worked for a few companies like that in the past where they are still issuing paychecks but nobody is really driving. Products get released but they are mostly half assed because corporate pressure, lack of vision, and lack of creative passion just suck the life out of people doing the work.
The thing is, BioWare hasn't been "sliding". They've been the same since forever. We've seen multiple reports of how the studio didn't change its ways from the early 2000s despite how significantly game development has changed since then - it's been known many of their projects were messes until late in development when "BioWare Magic" made it all work and they ended up shipping a 90+ MC game. But that was back then and it has been proven it's not working anymore. Anthem is there to prove it.

While I don't think you can pin that on Mark Darrah since he wasn't the lead of Andromeda or Anthem from inception, I do think you can pin it on management overall. That has been documented multiple times as the main issue at BioWare. And that wasn't going to change with the same leads.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
The thing is, BioWare hasn't been "sliding". They've been the same since forever. We've seen multiple reports of how the studio didn't change its ways from the early 2000s despite how significantly game development has changed since then - it's been known many of their projects were messes until late in development when "BioWare Magic" made it all work and they ended up shipping a 90+ MC game. But that was back then and it has been proven it's not working anymore. Anthem is there to prove it.

While I don't think you can pin that on Mark Darrah since he wasn't the lead of Andromeda or Anthem from inception, I do think you can pin it on management overall. That has been documented multiple times as the main issue at BioWare. And that wasn't going to change with the same leads.
It seems like they're dealing with the same pains as some Japanese devs early in the HD era inasmuch as it seemed like they were trying to keep working as if it was the early/mid 2000s when that paradigm wasn't workable for what they wanted to put out in the mid 2010s.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
The thing is, BioWare hasn't been "sliding". They've been the same since forever. We've seen multiple reports of how the studio didn't change its ways from the early 2000s despite how significantly game development has changed since then - it's been known many of their projects were messes until late in development when "BioWare Magic" made it all work and they ended up shipping a 90+ MC game. But that was back then and it has been proven it's not working anymore. Anthem is there to prove it.

While I don't think you can pin that on Mark Darrah since he wasn't the lead of Andromeda or Anthem from inception, I do think you can pin it on management overall. That has been documented multiple times as the main issue at BioWare. And that wasn't going to change with the same leads.

I would agree especially considering the famous anecdote that Mass Effect's team was very strictly defined in its development and direction, whereas Dragon Age was more of a "pirate ship" that would float from port to port. While I have no doubt that had its advantages (probably particularly in the writing department) it seems to have had a disastrous effect on the team's technical flexibility.
 

gothmog

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,434
NY
The thing is, BioWare hasn't been "sliding". They've been the same since forever. We've seen multiple reports of how the studio didn't change its ways from the early 2000s despite how significantly game development has changed since then - it's been known many of their projects were messes until late in development when "BioWare Magic" made it all work and they ended up shipping a 90+ MC game. But that was back then and it has been proven it's not working anymore. Anthem is there to prove it.

While I don't think you can pin that on Mark Darrah since he wasn't the lead of Andromeda or Anthem from inception, I do think you can pin it on management overall. That has been documented multiple times as the main issue at BioWare. And that wasn't going to change with the same leads.
I agree to a point. Management is such a broad term when you are talking about organizational dysfunction, though.
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,208
I would agree especially considering the famous anecdote that Mass Effect's team was very strictly defined in its development and direction, whereas Dragon Age was more of a "pirate ship" that would float from port to port. While I have no doubt that had its advantages (probably particularly in the writing department) it seems to have had a disastrous effect on the team's technical flexibility.

Yeah, everyone seems to forget that Dragon Age: Origins was in development hell forever and had numerous developmental difficulties. It started dev in 2002, was revealed in 2004, and released in 2009. That was an eternity in those generations. But it turned out great so it still gets the "Bioware Magic" seal of approval.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,805
I agree to a point. Management is such a broad term when you are talking about organizational dysfunction, though.
I'm just referencing the information Jason Schreier obtained from current and former BioWare devs. Anthem and Andromeda suffered greatly from a lack of focus, and doing things over from scratch instead of sticking with what they had and how management seemed to not have a clear vision for the projects or took too long to make decisions. It all went back to management issues sending ripples throughout the entire studio.

It's strongly suggested this is how BioWare has operated for decades, but now it takes a lot more time and resources to develop games, so this lack of focus can have much larger impact on development now than it did back then.

This is going to end up on Wha Happun? isnt it. :(
The chances are low for BioWare to fuck up an established IP. Dragon Age is most likely going to be fine, as will Mass Effect: Will Continue, provided they don't try to reinvent the wheel

I know some people will read this and think "Well, they fucked up Andromeda!" and it bears repeating Andromeda was made by an entirely different studio.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
I'm just referencing the information Jason Schreier obtained from current and former BioWare devs. Anthem and Andromeda suffered greatly from a lack of focus, and doing things over from scratch instead of sticking with what they had and how management seemed to not have a clear vision for the projects or took too long to make decisions. It all went back to management issues sending ripples throughout the entire studio.

It's strongly suggested this is how BioWare has operated for decades, but now it takes a lot more time and resources to develop games, so this lack of focus can have much larger impact on development now than it did back then.


The chances are low for BioWare to fuck up an established IP. Dragon Age is most likely going to be fine, as will Mass Effect: Will Continue, provided they don't try to reinvent the wheel

I know some people will read this and think "Well, they fucked up Andromeda!" and it bears repeating Andromeda was made by an entirely different studio.
 

gothmog

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,434
NY
I'm just referencing the information Jason Schreier obtained from current and former BioWare devs. Anthem and Andromeda suffered greatly from a lack of focus, and doing things over from scratch instead of sticking with what they had and how management seemed to not have a clear vision for the projects or took too long to make decisions. It all went back to management issues sending ripples throughout the entire studio.
The corporate machine allows you to keep the wheels turning even though nobody is really driving towards any clear goal. I have seen whole teams spend months basically producing meaningless content because they had budget and nobody really noticed.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,805

As usual, some really good insights into game development.

It seems they're still not going to share though, what with the rumors about Mass Effect moving to Unreal Engine 5. Unless Dragon Age 5 does the same using the next Mass Effect as the code base.

The corporate machine allows you to keep the wheels turning even though nobody is really driving towards any clear goal. I have seen whole teams spend months basically producing meaningless content because they had budget and nobody really noticed.
If an entire team goes months producing meaningless content, that's still a management issue.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
As usual, some really good insights into game development.

It seems they're still not going to share though, what with the rumors about Mass Effect moving to Unreal Engine 5. Unless Dragon Age 5 does the same using the next Mass Effect as the code base.


If an entire team goes months producing meaningless content, that's still a management issue.
It's nothing short of hilarious that DA has enjoyed greater success on Frostbite than the newer Mass Effect.

edit: DAI might be one of EA's most critically successful games n Frostbite.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,805
It's nothing short of hilarious that DA has enjoyed greater success on Frostbite than the newer Mass Effect.

edit: DAI might be one of EA's most critically successful games n Frostbite.
I think Battlefield 1 is the only Frostbite game to match Inquisition's Metascore. But then, Inquisition has a ton of GOTY awards. Truly a king.

Hopefully BioWare is having a better time with Frostbite this time around.
 

KrAzY

Member
Sep 2, 2018
1,922
My hope for this game is still bright as the sun, lets go!! Gotta continue from trespasser , too good
 

Deleted member 5129

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,263

mikehaggar

Developer at Pixel Arc Studios
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
1,379
Harrisburg, Pa
I think Battlefield 1 is the only Frostbite game to match Inquisition's Metascore. But then, Inquisition has a ton of GOTY awards. Truly a king.

Hopefully BioWare is having a better time with Frostbite this time around.
I never finished it, but I probably put a solid 20 hours into Inquisition and I really enjoyed it. It's on my "to play" list for sure. I wonder why they just wouldn't expand off of what they did in Inquisition. To be clear, Inquisition is the only DA game I've played, so I understand I may be overlooking or unaware of things that hardcore DA fans care about.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,805
I never finished it, but I probably put a solid 20 hours into Inquisition and I really enjoyed it. It's on my "to play" list for sure. I wonder why they just wouldn't expand off of what they did in Inquisition. To be clear, Inquisition is the only DA game I've played, so I understand I may be overlooking or unaware of things that hardcore DA fans care about.
Even among the hardcore bit of the fan base opinions on Inquisition diverge a bit. A lot of people love it, a lot of people don't, a lot of people like some thing but not all of it.

All in all, it's a flawed game mostly because of the open world design that can make the game drag on. But it's my favorite Dragon Age game, I probably have upwards of 200 hours in it. The DLC is really good as well, specially Trespasser.

Wooooooow, what a racist piece of shit.

Are we sure this was Casey Hudson though? Didn't he leave the project early on and then came back later?
Yeah, looking at it again, it might not have been. By the time Anthem launched, he was credited as Studio Head. But Anthem has no one credited as Creative Director at all, so it's impossible to say for sure who it was at this point.
 

Barnak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,058
Canada
I'm worried that Mass Effect Will Continue is going to release around 2026-2027 at this rate, but what do I know.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
How's that hilarious?



This is so dramatic. DA4 is probably gonna kick ass now that they don't have any online bullshit in it.
DA did a lot AFAIK to lay the groundwork for having shipped tools in Frostbite to build an RPG, while Frostbite traditionally is used for shooters. That Andromeda couldn't leverage this is just crazy.

Even among the hardcore bit of the fan base opinions on Inquisition diverge a bit. A lot of people love it, a lot of people don't, a lot of people like some thing but not all of it.


All in all, it's a flawed game mostly because of the open world design that can make the game drag on. But it's my favorite Dragon Age game, I probably have upwards of 200 hours in it. The DLC is really good as well, specially Trespasser.



Yeah, looking at it again, it might not have been. By the time Anthem launched, he was credited as Studio Head. But Anthem has no one credited as Creative Director at all, so it's impossible to say for sure who it was at this point.
Man, the DAI DLCs really cement it as one of my games of the generation.
 
Jul 24, 2018
10,242
And it's ironic that people say only Weekes gives them hope because Weekes wasn't originally a Dragon Age writer. They started at BioWare working on Mass Effect, became notorious for writing the Rannoch arc of Mass Effect 3 and went on to work on Dragon Age: Inquisition. Now they're officially the lead writer of Dragon Age after David Gaider's departure. The person who never worked on Origins or DA2 is the one people are calling their only hope for Dragon Age 4.

I mean, if Weekes isn't the strongest argument in favor of how newcomers can do incredible things for the franchise, I don't know what is.
They wrote one of the best BioWare villains so there is a lot to be excited about. Shame Gaider is gone as I love all of his characters, especially Dorian, but we still have the writers of Isabela, Leliana, Varric hanging around so I don't think Dragon Age's writing will get any worse. It's still fun to be excited about a New Dragon Age.
 
Jul 24, 2018
10,242
DA did a lot AFAIK to lay the groundwork for having shipped tools in Frostbite to build an RPG, while Frostbite traditionally is used for shooters. That Andromeda couldn't leverage this is just crazy.


Man, the DAI DLCs really cement it as one of my games of the generation.
I can't say I was a big fan of Jaw's of Hakkon myself, it was probably the least fun I had with a BioWare DLC which are usually pretty good. I might play the other DLCs one day but the game arbitrarily deciding to make Vivienne the Divine demoralized me from playing any more Inquisition for some time after having spent 100s of hours on the game.
 

Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,351
Damn, what a shame. I hope they get this game in good shape, Inquisition was a genuinely good step in the right direction.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
I can't say I was a big fan of Jaw's of Hakkon myself, it was probably the least fun I had with a BioWare DLC which are usually pretty good. I might play the other DLCs one day but the game arbitrarily deciding to make Vivienne the Divine demoralized me from playing any more Inquisition for some time after having spent 100s of hours on the game.

I saw Jaws as BioWare basically being like "Okay, we know this is how each zone in the base game should have been." It was a fun extra zone. But the truth is BioWare is just so much better with a linear template at this point, and this showed in Descent and especially Trespasser.
 
Jul 24, 2018
10,242
I saw Jaws as BioWare basically being like "Okay, we know this is how each zone in the base game should have been." It was a fun extra zone. But the truth is BioWare is just so much better with a linear template at this point, and this showed in Descent and especially Trespasser.
The zone overall was just kinda boring, and the story was meh. I hate how the characters didn't feel that involved in what was going on compared to the DA2 DLCs. Maybe that is a byproduct of it being open world. But what really annoyed me was the enemies and their annoying as invisible debuffs that kills your party before you have time to react.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,805
I saw Jaws as BioWare basically being like "Okay, we know this is how each zone in the base game should have been." It was a fun extra zone. But the truth is BioWare is just so much better with a linear template at this point, and this showed in Descent and especially Trespasser.
Yeah, I always saw Jaws of Hakkon as more of a playground. Plot wise, it doesn't do much. It does add a little bit of interesting lore, though. I do like Descent and Trespasser more, though, and they really shake up the lore.

Really, Inquisition's tagline might as well have been "Deep lore gets deeper". I love where the series is headed.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,086
When news came out that DA4 moved from GAAS to SP focus people came out blaming EA being too hands on, forcing GAAS on BW etc. At that point even Jason came out and basically said that BW wanted to make DA4 GAAS and it was EA who told them to turn it into just SP focus.

To me that implies certain level of being hands off with the studio, only stepping in when deemed necessary. That said I do expect that there is certain high level instructions about what type things should be considered when concepting new titles.

Let's not forget that it was BioWare who pissed away 5 years of development time on Andromeda experimenting with procedurally generated content before effectively to scrap everything and make a new game in 18 months. Or BioWare who made Anthem without knowing what they were aiming for, with the only universally praised bit of the game being the bit EA told them to focus on (the flying).

EA is absolutely to blame for Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3. But since then they seem to have been very hands off from all the reporting done, and BioWare themselves are responsible for the fuck ups of Andromeda and Anthem. Ironically in both cases, having resources and no massive deadline pressure fucked then even more!
 

LossAversion

The Merchant of ERA
Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,703
I love Inquisition. It's my favorite Dragon Age and honestly one of my favorite games of all time thanks to the cast. But if every zone in Inquisition was like Emprise du Lion, Crestwood, etc., it would have been incredible. Those zones had a linear "critical" path that was easy to follow while also allowing for some exploration if you wanted to go off the beaten path. They felt fantastic.
 

waterpuppy

Too green for a tag
Member
Jul 17, 2021
1,818
I think it's a little bit naive to believe in some absolute truth when it comes to Biowares dev cycles and EA's involvement in them. It's very easy to buy into the whole "eeeevil EA ruined Bioware, they just need to get back some of their Bioware magic!" story, or the "Bioware has lost their magic/never even had it in the first place and it's no ones fault but their own" story, for that matter. I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, or just more complicated than a clear "villain" to put all the blame on.

Btw, am I the only one whose favorite DA:I DLC is The Descent? I always found the dwarves lore in DA to be pretty cool and I loved the atmosphere and lore drops in that DLC. Probably more than Trespasser, tbh.
 

Patryn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,827
For those talking about no news and it being in development hell, keep in mind that for years (basically since it was announced) EA has been telling investors that it's a late 2022 title at the earliest.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
"development hell" seems unfair for a game that had to have staff yanked off to get Andromeda and Anthem out the door. I can't imagine the game as it is started any earlier than like 2018.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,805
"development hell" seems unfair for a game that had to have staff yanked off to get Andromeda and Anthem out the door. I can't imagine the game as it is started any earlier than like 2018.
If the game went into full production early 2020 - as one of the producers said -, then yeah, pre-production of this final iteration of the game probably started 2019 or 2018.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
Don't make me tap the sign:
To be fair, the time of full-scale development hasn't been that long. DA4 development began in late 2015, but the team was pulled off to help Andromeda. Then as they were getting back to working on DA4 they were pulled off again to help Anthem. So if we only count from Anthem shipping, it hasn't been that long. It's an unfortunate side effect of the two previous projects rather than anything Dragon Age related.
 

Ashes of Dreams

Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,412
In regards to the writing at least, I'm still excited for the game.

Mary Kirby, Sheryl Chee, and Lukas Kristjanson are all fantastic writers who have been with Dragon Age since Origins and continue to write for DA4.
If you liked any of the following characters:
Cullen, Leliana, Oghren, Wynne, Isabela, Blackwall, Loghain, Sten, Merrill, Varric, Vivienne, the Arishok, Aveline, Carver, Sera
Then you're still in good hands, as they were written by one of those three.
Those three also wrote many of the classic and beloved questlines throughout all three games.
Also some love for Sylvia Feketekuty, who hasn't been with the series since Origins like the other three I mentioned, but wrote some great stuff for Inquisition.