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Metalmucil

Member
Aug 17, 2019
1,379
Wow, listening to it now and the difference between the masters is quite obvious. To the point where I will have to separate them into 2 different albums when I listen or it will bug the crap out of me. While I think the EQ curve is better on the ID mixed stuff, everything else is terrible. The dynamics and every other aspect are way better on the Mick stuff.
 

lazygecko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,628
What are the chances that the outroar about this forces bethesda to fix it?

When Skyrim Special Edition released, people quickly caught on to the fact that the audio had been severely downgraded on PC from lossless wavs to a terribly compressed state. This juicy downgrade story also made the press and they at least backtracked on that.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Oct 25, 2017
5,876
Las Vegas
And apparently Mick is done with Bethesda

jzij5jf7wst41.png



He should reunite with Casey and Ali Edwards and work on DMC6.
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,711
Why are you assuming I was trying to frame it as something negative after praising him earlier in the thread?
People typically use the term "friendly reminder" to share things "you should most definitely be mad about" or be snarky on this site pretty often.
 
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samred

Amico fun conversationalist
Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,584
Seattle, WA
I managed to source 24-bit, 48KHz versions of both BFG Division songs officially released by Bethesda, and... yeah. The 2016 version is pretty overblown, but within that stylistic choice, you still get definition out of things like the cymbals. Not on this new one.

It's borderline robbery on Bethesda's part to advertise this as a legitimate mix/master job for those who paid extra for it. Are the tracks' levels like this if you rip the songs directly from the game, as well?
 

SupremeWu

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
2,856
How is their incompetence "his drama?"

I don't know why, but it bugs me, he did video game soundtracks and can't seem to shut up about it. Frankly I think the game would be much better if you turned the music to mute and put on some old Metallica (this is based on watching LPs)
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,711
I don't know why, but it bugs me, he did video game soundtracks and can't seem to shut up about it. Frankly I think the game would be much better if you turned the music to mute and put on some old Metallica
Not at all, I played the shit out of it for like 2 weeks straight before getting my Ultra Nightmare clear. The music fits the game mood and pace super well and is used for context of fights starting stopping.

The rythm of the songs lines up with general pacing of chainsawing and quick weapon swap combos.
 

SupremeWu

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
2,856
Not at all, I played the shit out of it for like 2 weeks straight before getting my Ultra Nightmare clear. The music fits the game mood and pace super well and is used for context of fights starting stopping.

The rythm of in the songs lines up with general pacing of chainsawing and quick weapon swap combos.

If it's great and well-received, what's he complaining about? Too good of composer, that can hear sounds only dogs and wolves can hear?

Ahhh.

The term is Prima donna
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,141
I don't know why, but it bugs me, he did video game soundtracks and can't seem to shut up about it. Frankly I think the game would be much better if you turned the music to mute and put on some old Metallica (this is based on watching LPs)
Not the greatest band to choose in a thread about bad mixing/mastering. Rip and justice for all
 

Velikost

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,322
I don't know why, but it bugs me, he did video game soundtracks and can't seem to shut up about it. Frankly I think the game would be much better if you turned the music to mute and put on some old Metallica (this is based on watching LPs)
If it's great and well-received, what's he complaining about? Too good of composer, that can hear sounds only dogs and wolves can hear?

Ahhh.

The term is Prima donna

rFQAkZK.jpg
 

SupremeWu

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
2,856
If the only thing you're bringing to the conversation table is a meme that was old five years ago, then maybe just be a reader.
 

Conkerkid11

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,945
If it's great and well-received, what's he complaining about? Too good of composer, that can hear sounds only dogs and wolves can hear?

Ahhh.

The term is Prima donna
Dude composed the music used in-game for the previous entry and the sequel. The music is fantastic in both releases and the mix for the OST of the original is great and done by him.

Bethesda decides to mix the OST for the sequel themselves. They took the stuff he composed and turned it into an OST themselves, and people noticed, asked the composer why he did this, and the composer is disappointed it's being poorly received because he had nothing to do with it.

Stop posting cringe.

Friendly reminder that Mick Gordon hid satanic imagery and secret lyrics in the Doom 2016 soundtrack:


Not sure what you're trying to say here. I hope you're not serious about this being a reason to dislike the dude.
 

Metalmucil

Member
Aug 17, 2019
1,379
If it's great and well-received, what's he complaining about? Too good of composer, that can hear sounds only dogs and wolves can hear?

Ahhh.

The term is Prima donna
Dude, no. He created something, someone else took it and butchered it, seemingly without his consent. How would you feel if someone did that with something you created?

If you can't hear the difference, that's on you, but its a massive difference. And for people like me (I moonlight as a mastering engineer and actually get paid to master music) its not only a massive difference, its a massively bad difference. Especially when you know there could be good versions, let alone that some of them are even included just to taunt you.
 

SinkFla

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,431
Pensacola, Fl
Dude, no. He created something, someone else took it and butchered it, seemingly without his consent. How would you feel if someone did that with something you created?

If you can't hear the difference, that's on you, but its a massive difference. And for people like me (I moonlight as a mastering engineer and actually get paid to master music) its not only a massive difference, its a massively bad difference. Especially when you know there could be good versions, let alone that some of them are even included just to taunt you.

I love Mick's music but I'm going to play devil's advocate and make a point here:

That something he created was specifically for a game he was hired to score, and that someone was the people who actually own the music and hired him in the first place.

It sucks they released a poorly mixed and mastered version of his stuff but this is why much like with a major label record deal you make provisions for artist rights such as co-ownership of your work. If he had any issues with the way his music was handled in 2016 (the comment about the time signature changes being a product of iDs editing) then if I were him I'd be damn sure to try to prevent shit like that happening in the future. In the end I hope Bethesda and iD let him release his music how he wants it to be heard but I can understand the soundtrack being altered within the game itself (music has to line up with battle encounters, etc). Losing Mick in Doom 3 would be a HUGE loss.

I do find it strange he's so public about all this stuff. I can see it deterring some developers from working with him which sucks.
 

Metalmucil

Member
Aug 17, 2019
1,379
I love Mick's music but I'm going to play devil's advocate and make a point here:

That something he created was specifically for a game he was hired to score, and that someone was the people who actually own the music and hired him in the first place.

It sucks they released a poorly mixed and mastered version of his stuff but this is why much like with a major label record deal you make provisions for artist rights such as co-ownership of your work. If he had any issues with the way his music was handled in 2016 (the comment about the time signature changes being a product of iDs editing) then if I were him I'd be damn sure to try to prevent shit like that happening in the future. In the end I hope Bethesda and iD let him release his music how he wants it to be heard but I can understand the soundtrack being altered within the game itself (music has to line up with battle encounters, etc). Losing Mick in Doom 3 would be a HUGE loss.

I do find it strange he's so public about all this stuff. I can see it deterring some developers from working with him which sucks.
I completely understand your points. I understand having different edits/mixes/etc for different uses. Especially in something like a video game, which dynamically changes moment to moment. If they are contractually allowed to do it, he can't stop them. Sure, as an artist, he should probably have been more concerned with his contractual rights, if that turns out to be the underlying cause. Also, maybe there weren't any problems during the negotiation stages and he trusted the wrong people. It is possible he legit got screwed through a loophole. I mean, it's also possible he's being a diva, but history suggests when its artist vs corporation, the corporation is usually not the nice guy.
But does any of that make it right? If he made something he was proud of, and was thinking he was going to be able to release it properly in a way he approved, then wasn't allowed to, does that make it OK simply because they are legally able to? I don't think so. Basic legality vs morality stuff. It is odd that he is being rather forward about his dislike, and I agree that it may leave a bad taste when it comes to other developers, but in today's day and age, I'm glad he's sticking up for what he wanted a bit. I honestly wish more artists would come out with this stuff when it happens to them, because we know it happens a lot.

This is getting off topic and into crazy conjecture now due to our limited information, so we can leave it be.
TLDR - I see your points, but that does not make it OK. The poster I was responding to originally is still 100% wrong though.
 

SinkFla

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,431
Pensacola, Fl
I completely understand your points. I understand having different edits/mixes/etc for different uses. Especially in something like a video game, which dynamically changes moment to moment. If they are contractually allowed to do it, he can't stop them. Sure, as an artist, he should probably have been more concerned with his contractual rights, if that turns out to be the underlying cause. Also, maybe there weren't any problems during the negotiation stages and he trusted the wrong people. It is possible he legit got screwed through a loophole. I mean, it's also possible he's being a diva, but history suggests when its artist vs corporation, the corporation is usually not the nice guy.
But does any of that make it right? If he made something he was proud of, and was thinking he was going to be able to release it properly in a way he approved, then wasn't allowed to, does that make it OK simply because they are legally able to? I don't think so. Basic legality vs morality stuff. It is odd that he is being rather forward about his dislike, and I agree that it may leave a bad taste when it comes to other developers, but in today's day and age, I'm glad he's sticking up for what he wanted a bit. I honestly wish more artists would come out with this stuff when it happens to them, because we know it happens a lot.

This is getting off topic and into crazy conjecture now due to our limited information, so we can leave it be.
TLDR - I see your points, but that does not make it OK. The poster I was responding to originally is still 100% wrong though.

Yeah I definitely don't look at it as if it's okay. It's a dick move through and through on Bethesda's part. Hopefully they'll walk it back and let him have some agency over the release of his music.

I'm a musician myself (plz hire me studioz) and would love to score games or film. I kick myself for turning down offers a good while ago that could have greatly benefited me now, but I did so because they were situations where I would be powerless over what was done with my work. It's definitely an internal struggle for anyone in the creative arts when you have to weigh integrity against opportunity. I would kill to do what Mick does and if the worst experience to come out of that would be a commercial release of music I created for someone else that was not mixed to my absolute satisfaction I think I could live with that.
 

White Glint

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,617
I don't know why, but it bugs me, he did video game soundtracks and can't seem to shut up about it. Frankly I think the game would be much better if you turned the music to mute and put on some old Metallica (this is based on watching LPs)
If it's great and well-received, what's he complaining about? Too good of composer, that can hear sounds only dogs and wolves can hear?

Ahhh.

The term is Prima donna

what the fuck am I reading. Good grief
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,756
Now I'm just sad thinking of how good the soundtrack would've been if it was made by Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Exodus and Sodom in their prime. Hell, I'd gladly take a Doom soundtrack consisting entirely of Slayer's 'War Ensemble', 'Necrophiliac' and 'Angel of Death' on repeat.
 

evilromero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,370
Listening to it in my car a bit more and I think I prefer the EQ curve of the non-Mick Gordon master. It's punchier and carves out a lot of the mud. I love his arrangements though and would've loved to see a master that was somewhere between his and whoever did the other master. Similar EQ curve to the non-Mick master but dial back compression threshold and the gain to give a tad more headroom for sonic dynamics but not by too much.
 

LordRuyn

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,909
I managed to source 24-bit, 48KHz versions of both BFG Division songs officially released by Bethesda, and... yeah. The 2016 version is pretty overblown, but within that stylistic choice, you still get definition out of things like the cymbals. Not on this new one.

It's borderline robbery on Bethesda's part to advertise this as a legitimate mix/master job for those who paid extra for it. Are the tracks' levels like this if you rip the songs directly from the game, as well?
Hold up, where did you find the 24-bit versions. The CD I ripped it from was only 16. Are they for sale somewhere?

The 16 bit version I have is borderline excessive but I agree nowhere near as bad as Eternal
 

Mass Effect

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
16,753
EV7j5FhUwAELYoE

This has been badly brickwalled at some point by looking at it closer to hardclip at 0dBFS, pulled down in level by several dB, that one weird transient hitting 0dBFS which looks like it had to have been added in post mix. A hard limiter on the master output bus on mixdown and then imported into the rest of the track. Or just added after the mastering pass. I wouldn't be surprised if dual compression/limiting was used on this incorrectly. Either way I gave the track a listen and it has a ton of clipping distortion, drums sound especially bad with cymbals.

67b.jpg


You can just TELL there's going to be awful clipping based on the waveform alone. FFS I can mix better than this and I have zero formal training.
 

Marossi

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,997
Well, if Mick is out then I'm probably out too. The full experience of Doom for me it's to listen to it's badass OST while slaughtering demons and having that adrenaline pumped in my veins.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
I don't know why, but it bugs me, he did video game soundtracks and can't seem to shut up about it. Frankly I think the game would be much better if you turned the music to mute and put on some old Metallica (this is based on watching LPs)
If it's great and well-received, what's he complaining about? Too good of composer, that can hear sounds only dogs and wolves can hear?

Ahhh.

The term is Prima donna
This has to be candidate for worst take of the year.
I'm not even in the camp of people thinking Mick Gordon is some saviour of video game music, but god damn dude.
 

Chris Metal

Avatar Master Painter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,582
United Kingdom
The CD rip is 16 FLAC though I could have made a mistake while ripping it. I didn't know you could buy stuff from Tidal. I'll buy a track and check it with Mediainfo to see if it's 24bit. Thanks for the link!
CD is encoded in 16-bit 44.1 kHz samples. Doesn't matter if you rip to higher samples or bit depth you'll just have a bunch of wasted space with no extra data, cause there's no audio data there to fill it. You didn't rip it wrong if it's 16-bit FLAC.
 

LiK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,045
I'm downloading the Lossless OST from the CE I got. Prepared for disapppointment.
 

show me your skeleton

#1 Bugsnax Fan
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,613
skeleton land
If it's great and well-received, what's he complaining about? Too good of composer, that can hear sounds only dogs and wolves can hear?

Ahhh.

The term is Prima donna
I don't know why, but it bugs me, he did video game soundtracks and can't seem to shut up about it. Frankly I think the game would be much better if you turned the music to mute and put on some old Metallica (this is based on watching LPs)


ahahahhahahahhaha
off you go to the ignore pile, good lord.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,748
The soundtrack having its mix altered, cut or edited for the game itself is understandable. Composing for a game isn't like composing for a film score; the music needs to sync up to so many different variables that the audio engineers will have to occasionally take liberties with the music they're presented with.

But an official soundtrack release is a way to give the composer's work the due diligence it deserves, that's when the composer's work should be presented the way they intended it to be.
 

Applebite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
569
If it's great and well-received, what's he complaining about? Too good of composer, that can hear sounds only dogs and wolves can hear?

Ahhh.

The term is Prima donna
I think it's totally fair for him to complain. If the studio fucks with the output he makes, why would he continue to work for them? Whether it's something you personally can hear or not, he clearly cares about it a lot (and I would tell you that pretty much all musicians do).
The soundtrack having its mix altered, cut or edited for the game itself is understandable. Composing for a game isn't like composing for a film score; the music needs to sync up to so many different variables that the audio engineers will have to occasionally take liberties with the music they're presented with.

But an official soundtrack release is a way to give the composer's work the due diligence it deserves, that's when the composer's work should be presented the way they intended it to be.
This is also a very good point.
 
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