I get not reading the tutorial because you're cocky from playing 2016, but what are they really supposed to do about that?
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Doom Eternal's core loop is badly explained
- Thread starter flyinj
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Again, it's one line of text at the bottom of a pop up that precedes a playable demonstration of how the chainsaw worked in the old game.
People really can't see how they could make that clearer lol?
A lot of people can't be a very small minority. The chainsaw refill is not that important to the game's progression.
For someone ragging on others for not reading things, you sure don't seem to actually read the posts you quote.
Not having played Eternal but having finished Doom 2016, I have to agree with the OP that the tutorial for the chainsaw should have been designed way better.
What's basically explained there is that the chainsaw works the same as in Doom 2016. From the gameplay portion of that tutorial, nothing brings into play the autorefill feature at all... just a single line at the end of the explanation that isnt even highlighted in any way is not good enough.
In UX design double confirms and checks are standard everywhere. This tutorial fails miserably at that.
What's basically explained there is that the chainsaw works the same as in Doom 2016. From the gameplay portion of that tutorial, nothing brings into play the autorefill feature at all... just a single line at the end of the explanation that isnt even highlighted in any way is not good enough.
In UX design double confirms and checks are standard everywhere. This tutorial fails miserably at that.
I agree it could've been designed better. Again, the chainsaw refill isn't too imporant to play the game on "Hurt Me Plenty". Even if you miss the text, and really run out of ammo, it auto changes to the chainsaw. There are a lot of pick ups throughout the game too. Even more once you unlock shooting barrels for ammo when that's unlocked.
Early stages in Eternal is the weakest from gameplay standpoint.
I mean, thats how Game Design works, you gotta find the right balance for the mechanics, content, and game feel you're trying to implement. In general Dark Souls does everything it needs to perfectly. Sometimes it is best to get out of the players way and let gameplay be the instructor and that method fits perfectly with what the Souls games are trying to achieve. You just need different strategies for different games.
Doom Eternal style tutorials are just the kind that players black out during and mash through so they can get them out of the way so they can keep playing and it combines poorly with a mechanic that runs counter to how it worked in the previous game and general video game weapon ammo/fuel patterns that we've been learning in shooters for years. I also think because of how limited ammo is in Eternal is, it further disincentives players from using the chainsaw before they fully understand the regenerating fuel because they're pushed into an ammo conservation mindset to begin with.
Its funny too because Doom 2016/Eternal both do this "push special button to refill bar" mechanic with Glory Kills for health and it confuses much fewer people because its completely disassociated from normal FPS weapons/mechanics. Doom Eternals implementation of the ammo regeneration part of its gameplay loop is just clumsy.
Yeah. I think that coupled with the bigger focus on story almost killed my interest in the game completely if I'm honest. They took two really big risks there in making the learning curve for the combat almost vertical and vomiting lore so early on.
I am not doubting that, but the point is that the tutorial is failing at trying to explain the mechanics behind that weapon making you believe it works the same as in the previous game.
Having four enemies instead of three and showing a new text message saying that in this new game the refill is a thing, before being given the option to finish the four enemy, would have solved the problem for example.
I kind of get where OP is coming from.
It's sort of like getting the Master Sword in Zelda for NES and it shoots a beam, getting it in Zelda 2 and it shoots a beam, getting it in LttP for SNES and it shoots a beam, but all of a sudden in Zelda OoT for the N64 there is no beam. It's assumed sequel knowledge. It would be like a DMC game not having Stinger when you do the Hold forward + Attack button or Ryu not having a hadouken when doing v > X
It's sort of like getting the Master Sword in Zelda for NES and it shoots a beam, getting it in Zelda 2 and it shoots a beam, getting it in LttP for SNES and it shoots a beam, but all of a sudden in Zelda OoT for the N64 there is no beam. It's assumed sequel knowledge. It would be like a DMC game not having Stinger when you do the Hold forward + Attack button or Ryu not having a hadouken when doing v > X
I think more than the mechanics themselves, it takes players longer to really use them more than what the devs would've liked the players to do. It's really amazing once the groove is on, but until the groove is on, it can be an issue in its own way.
Personally I don't think it's clumsy, but it definitely would be nice if it gets vastly improved in the next game.
I don't think it fails at it, it's just not optimal. Your second paragraph makes sense. Another extra 5-10 seconds wouldn't have messed with anything since it's literally the start of the game.
Sure, but it's your perception and expectation that's not right. Devs can't be forced into one single thing if they don't want to. Ninja Gaiden to Ninja Gaiden 3 Razor's Edge all feel the same with very different mechanics. You'll be dying a lot if you expect defensive approach like NG1 will get you anywhere in NG2 or NG3RE.
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You know, most people would chalk this down to "lol my bad, I must have missed that in tutorial" instead of trying to make this about how the game devs didn't arrange words to make reading easier for you and that's bad game design.
While I missed it the first time around, I do not know how much more clear they could have made it. You should be expected to notice after a while anyway. There's a hud element AND an audio cue.
To comment further on the topic: Doom Eternal's combat loop is not badly explained, but you have to be willing to listen. If anything people have largely been complaining that the game explains too much.
To comment further on the topic: Doom Eternal's combat loop is not badly explained, but you have to be willing to listen. If anything people have largely been complaining that the game explains too much.
I was on the games wavelength from the very beginning, but I'd been following all the prerelease stuff closely, so I knew exactly what they were doing with the combat loop.
There's no doubt that Doom Eternal asks a lot from the player, but once you get it down, the combat is absolutely sublime. Eternal will almost certainly be my game of the year, and I feel it's one of the best shooters ever created.
There's no doubt that Doom Eternal asks a lot from the player, but once you get it down, the combat is absolutely sublime. Eternal will almost certainly be my game of the year, and I feel it's one of the best shooters ever created.
Following everything pre-release makes a difference. I went in full blind without seeing anything. No trailer, nothing. The only mechanic I missed a little was the Meathook. I was mad I didn't know about it a bit sooner lol
Or maybe the vast majority did understand and a small percentage didn't. Which occurs with every single game on the planet. We can all make assumptions based on tiny sample sizes.
Yes, they are saying the core loop is poorly explained for people who assumed the tutorial was intended for new players and skipped it because they already think they know how the chainsaw works from the first game. It is a major change from the first game, I guess they could've emphasized it more.
Since the solution could be simple, they should've done it better for the small percentage that didn't understand it.
(Also, we don't really have the numbers, so we don't know what the percentage is)
Those on-rails forced 30 minute tutorial missions in video games make way more sense to me now. People like OP exist
Fucking thank you. When did player error become developer error? This entire thread is basically "lazy dumb devs" thinly disguised as a discussion over "gameplay loop"
Doom 2016 is closer to the bobbing and weaving through hoards of enemies/projectiles that the classic games had. Eternal has a stronger focus on micro management, quick reflexes and sharp shooting weak points. Depending on what type of player you are will likely influence which you prefer. I liked 2016 better, not only for the gameplay but also art style, lore and level design.
The chainsaw fuel levels are definitely counter-intuitive. Every other ability in the game is either fully consumable (no auto-refills), or is on a cooldown. It's two distinct camps. The chainsaw is the only thing that does both, and so you wouldn't expect it to.
Coming from 2016 you also wouldn't expect the chainsaw to have changed in this way, so I agree most people probably didn't check the tooltip closely. It makes some sense why it auto-refills the lowest bar now - because they want you to use it way more often and deliberately lowered ammo counts, but then they also wanted to keep the ability to spend multiple chainsaw bars to instakill people. Thus, they want to both limit it, and also have it partially regenerate.
IMO, three abilities feel a bit out of place in the new design - Chainsaw, Bloodpunch and Crucible. Chainsaw and Crucible have a mixed purpose - they both instakill on a limited fuel resource. But chainsaw also your ammo renewal device. They probably should have just made the chainsaw never instakill big monsters anymore, and just be on cooldown with no concept of level 2 or 3 fuel if they were making the Crucible their new instakill "oh shit" panic button. Blood puch feels inelegant mainly because it made regular melee irrelevant (it seems to do no damage), but then bloodpunch is a semi instakill, but it's mentally a little straining to keep track of whether you have bloodpunch ready or not. I don't love it. I can use it, I finished the game on UV no dramas first time, I got used to using it. But I don't "like it".
Chainsaw fuel levels and bloodpunch are the two things I had most trouble keep track of because you needed to take your eyes off the (metaphorical) road to check what you had left, which could be dangerous, or you needed to mentally keep track of it which could be a bit fraught with how much was going on.
Coming from 2016 you also wouldn't expect the chainsaw to have changed in this way, so I agree most people probably didn't check the tooltip closely. It makes some sense why it auto-refills the lowest bar now - because they want you to use it way more often and deliberately lowered ammo counts, but then they also wanted to keep the ability to spend multiple chainsaw bars to instakill people. Thus, they want to both limit it, and also have it partially regenerate.
IMO, three abilities feel a bit out of place in the new design - Chainsaw, Bloodpunch and Crucible. Chainsaw and Crucible have a mixed purpose - they both instakill on a limited fuel resource. But chainsaw also your ammo renewal device. They probably should have just made the chainsaw never instakill big monsters anymore, and just be on cooldown with no concept of level 2 or 3 fuel if they were making the Crucible their new instakill "oh shit" panic button. Blood puch feels inelegant mainly because it made regular melee irrelevant (it seems to do no damage), but then bloodpunch is a semi instakill, but it's mentally a little straining to keep track of whether you have bloodpunch ready or not. I don't love it. I can use it, I finished the game on UV no dramas first time, I got used to using it. But I don't "like it".
Chainsaw fuel levels and bloodpunch are the two things I had most trouble keep track of because you needed to take your eyes off the (metaphorical) road to check what you had left, which could be dangerous, or you needed to mentally keep track of it which could be a bit fraught with how much was going on.
Could they have? Sure.
Should they have? I dunno, I don't think it was some glaring omission. I personally don't think it's too much to ask for somebody to read a text prompt.
Hell I feel like it should also be noticeable to anyone actually playing the game while paying attention if they ever run out of fuel.
Or the solution was fine and a small percentage are always gonna not read tutorials or ignore them. We can all pull shit out of your ass.
No one is saying "lazy dumb devs". All I'm saying is that for such a key change to a mechanic in a game, surely they could've come up with a more engaging way for the player to learn about this change than one single line of text at the bottom of a text box with no narration in a tutorial that drags you out of the game, and the proceeds to give you a playable tutorial which explicitly omits the single new feature to the chainsaw mechanic, and is never mentioned again until you happen to run out of fuel completely, at which point it is clearly obvious that it refills one single pip. I'm not asking for a 30 minute handhold tutorial because I skipped a single line of text, I'm just asking for the 10 second forced tutorial to actually demonstrate what it's a tutorial for properly.
All they needed to do was give you a pip, have you chainsaw an enemy, and then have it quickly refill and chainsaw a second enemy. That makes it glaringly obvious that it refills when empty, and also demonstrates how the chainsaw gives you ammo.
Like I've said, and no one is arguing about, it's noticeable as anything when you run out of fuel, but I was playing cautiously thanks to how the chainsaw worked on 2016, i.e. no refill on empty, so I only ran out for the first time mid way through Arc Complex, which is like 6 levels in, at which point I went "oh, I guess it recharges" before coming into this thread and being insulted by people repeatedly.
You know what's odd? They give a full tutorial on demon controls when you go into Battle Mode. Literally start with walking from point to point, so I'm really confused what happened for single player tutorial.
The online tutorials are far more detailed compared to the campaign. Feels like Battle Mode tutorials were made way after campaign but I'm pulling this out of my ass.
The whole game is basically juggling cooldowns. It gets way easier when you start to understand how quickly the flamethrower refills and how much survivability it gives you. Don't be afraid to use it on a single enemy. It's back up in no time. Get all that armor all the time.
OP
OP
Yeah if I find a group of grunts I spray them, harvest all the armor and leave them alive to chainsaw later if I need ammo.
Extremely disappointing sequel OP, I agree. Managing cool downs is just plain annoying. Then you add the platforming garbage and it just slows down the pacing entirely.
Want it to play like Doom 2016? The solution is to turn the difficulty to easiest, use WeMod for unlimited jumps, and keep a hot key ready with WeMod to refill ammo when needed.
Want it to play like Doom 2016? The solution is to turn the difficulty to easiest, use WeMod for unlimited jumps, and keep a hot key ready with WeMod to refill ammo when needed.
You can always chainsaw low tier enemies. Now... you can also chainsaw higher tier enemies but you need multiple fuel cells to do so.
Last post since people are just agenda posting in the thread. The Op didn't say anything you are agreeing with. The OP said
"Needless to say, now that I understand that the chainsaw autorefills the game is AWESOME.".
The OP issue is that he missed the tutorial explaining the mechanic. YOUR issue is COMPLETELY different. And its fine for you to have that issue. But your post is completely missing the point of the thread to try to make another point. Which ALOT of people are doing.
For some reason the minuscule segment of people who dislike Eternal REALLY want you to know that they dislike it in every possible opportunity
The unintuitive mechanic of partially refilling your chainsaw along with the low-effort "tutorial" that made Doom Eternal's combat loop hard to get your head around was compounded by a greater sin IMO: the game pops up quite a lot of tutorials in the same fashion in a row. You're thrown tonnes of information that you're expected to memorise, and for returning players what on the surface looks like a "I know this, duh" it gets buried under the new mechanics like the flame thrower of the 'blood punch'.
Within the first 5 mins the game pauses and instructs you a new enemy you're about to come across along with it's weak spot. Can you blame your players for mashing "A" after such ridiculous barriers between the "way you have to play" and the buyer who has been stopped for the fifth time from shooting demons with a shotgun?
Really hope they "fix" Doom Eternal next time around so it's less mobile-gamey / "correct way to play" and more fun.
Within the first 5 mins the game pauses and instructs you a new enemy you're about to come across along with it's weak spot. Can you blame your players for mashing "A" after such ridiculous barriers between the "way you have to play" and the buyer who has been stopped for the fifth time from shooting demons with a shotgun?
Really hope they "fix" Doom Eternal next time around so it's less mobile-gamey / "correct way to play" and more fun.
Ah yes the tool you use in 2016 for ammo strange people don't use it for that here then complain
Doom Eternal is a great game but not the game I wanted after falling in love with Doom 2016 and Project Brutality
I stopped because I hated this constant need for ammo and how weak the weapons felt compared to Doom 2016
I stopped because I hated this constant need for ammo and how weak the weapons felt compared to Doom 2016
It's nowhere near as bad as a mobile game lol.
Even if you miss something else in the tutorial, it's clear in the UI at all times. You flame belch, dash, or use a grenade, and the UI instantly goes to a refill animation, and with blood punch each time you do a glory kill, half of the icon lights up, which again is an instant notification via an action that you are constantly doing. With the chainsaw, you only get that UI feedback once you burn through all 3 pips.
What???
Everyone knows it gives you ammo- no one is confused by that. The tutorial has you kill 3 enemies with it, who each drop ammo, which is as it was on 2016.
Just want to comment here about this in isolation (not saying anything about the broader arguments) - I think that something being in the UI in doom eternal doesn't make it super clear necessarily because your attention is demanded by so many things in the environment just to stay alive. It took me till a long way through the game to feel confident enough to glance down at specific parts of the UI regularly.
I'd liken it to when you're learning to drive and how it can take a while before you're confident enough as a driver to glance down at the things on your dash during maneuvers or when traveling at high speeds.
Oh im low on ammo better not waste my tool for ammo!
Yeah no it's not the game's fault people cant read or have hoarding mentalities for stuff they shouldn't
I loved Doom 2016.. and regret spending money on Eternal. I don't know why they turned it into a puzzle/rhythm game, but that's what it feels like to me.
Because it teleports you to a training arena. in the first doom shit was explained to you naturally and you end up getting it without having to teleport you into obnoxeous tooltip style pull you out of the game kill rooms to explain something. I just button mashed my way trough those shitty tutorials. imo its 100% on doom eternal having too many mechanics muddying up the learning curve when compared to 2016 where it all felt far more natural.
I love the whole
"AAaaAAhh the game literally forces you to shoot the weak points or else you literally dieeee!!!"
Like... No. When I play Eternal, sometimes I shoot the weak points, sometimes I don't. It's something you can do in combat, but whether it makes sense to do at that moment depends entirely on the situation.
Granted though, the DLC does actually literally force you to shoot the weak points lol.
"AAaaAAhh the game literally forces you to shoot the weak points or else you literally dieeee!!!"
Like... No. When I play Eternal, sometimes I shoot the weak points, sometimes I don't. It's something you can do in combat, but whether it makes sense to do at that moment depends entirely on the situation.
Granted though, the DLC does actually literally force you to shoot the weak points lol.
They just trickled some of the nightmare elements down to the other difficulties and sped things up. Enemies in 2016 were handled better by specific weapons there too it jut rarely mattered outside nightmare
Most things have an audio clip too, which helps. Things like the dash cooldown are noticeable outside combat, same with leaving a fight with grenade or flame belch on cooldown.
You're saying people can't read, yet you read my post and that's the conclusion you came to?
It's literally one line of text in a pop up at the bottom which you can instantly skip, a playable tutorial which doesn't show how the new refill mechanic works, on a sequel to a game which sort of encouraged you to keep one fuel tank on you at all times. It's really hard to run through all 3 pips and completely burn through all of your ammo 3 times before you actually get to see it refill, with all the environment ammo and fuel barrels drop ammo and respawn perks.
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