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Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
Hugo Martin, spoke about crunch for Doom Eternal.

He said his experience working in games is that it is a never-ending job. To stay in the pop culture zeitgeist, Martin said he never stops playing games and consuming pop culture to inform future id Software games.

Martin said he's not forced to work long hours, but he finds himself doing so anyway.
"It's not really crunch... this is going to sound hokey. It's like a lifestyle. I live and breathe this," Martin said. "No one makes me stay at the office," he said. "Even when I come home, I see my kids, I do my thing, and then I just do research."
This research is playing video games and reading comic books, Martin said. It's part of his ambition to "engross myself in pop culture," he said.

"You have to ingest a ton of it, which means [this job] is 24/7," Martin said. "I get up really early; I try to do the exercise thing ... then I come home, send the kids to school. Then I have about two hours where the house is empty and I'll just play games."

Martin also said this was a prepared response because he knew, based on Rogan's previous interviews with developers like John Carmack, that the topic of crunch would come up.

In his own appearance on the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, Carmack--who was one of id Software's founders but has since moved on--spoke about how he argues against people who believe there should be laws that protect developers from working long hours.

"There are people that think there literally should be laws that prevent people from working that hard. I always have to argue against that," he said, according to Vice. "There is a power to obsession and being able to obsess over something--your life's work. Instead of work-life balance, it's your life's work."

"We really truly do try and be very respectful of peoples' time and lives," Stratton said. "We have very dedicated people that just choose to work a lot in many cases. It was nice because we want the game to be perfect. We want it to live up to our expectations and consumer expectations."

More here
 
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Deleted member 34714

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 28, 2017
1,617
There was an article back that said they were crunching for almost a year before the delay happened and after the delay they would crunch more.

If they're happy with the game, I am happy to buy it and support the devs.
 

spad3

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,122
California
It's one thing to say it's a lifestyle, but another to enforce that lifestyle upon everyone. Which is why there are people pushing for laws because some people don't see it as a lifestyle, but rather a job that pays the bills.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,351
You're conflating two different people in your quotes there. The quote about laws against crunch and how he doesn't want that is from John Carmack, who doesn't work for id Software anymore.

Martin also said this was a prepared response because he knew, based on Rogan's previous interviews with developers like John Carmack, that the topic of crunch would come up.

In his own appearance on the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, Carmack--who was one of id Software's founders but has since moved on--spoke about how he argues against people who believe there should be laws that protect developers from working long hours.

"There are people that think there literally should be laws that prevent people from working that hard. I always have to argue against that," he said, according to Vice. "There is a power to obsession and being able to obsess over something--your life's work. Instead of work-life balance, it's your life's work."

Martin is saying that he lives and breathes games and that, in their opinion, that's not really 'crunch'. Then says that they knew they'd get asked about this because of Carmack's interview on the Rogan podcast.

I've edited your post to put that line back in Bundy to avoid misquoting Martin.
 
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SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,145
Martin's an incredibly smart and talented guy, but what he's saying here is justifiable for him only because he's top of the food chain on the Doom games. Excuse my mixing metaphors, but it's a very different thing for people lower on the totem pole. That's who these anti-crunch movements are trying to protect - the little guy whose passion is exploited for the personal and financial gain of those at the top.
 

NekoNeko

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,447
User Banned (2 weeks): Drive-by trolling
imagine your life's work is a dumb video game.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,859
I'd like to hear more about the employees there.

If he is not lying and he is self-imposing crunch to himself that's fair but what about the other devs that does not have a choice? I want to hear more about them.
 

Azerth

Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,176
i dont think people want to make it so people cant chose to work late what people want is for bosses and companies to not be able to punish those that dont
 

scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,054
"dedicated"

"passionate"

All garbage terms to justify taking advantage of people. Just because he chooses to spend his time this way doesn't mean others at the studio want to, and just because they're staying doesn't mean they're really choosing to stay. They don't want to be the one person on the team who looks like they're less "dedicated" than everyone else.
 

Oticon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,446
I listened to the podcast and thought about the ND thread on here. Crunch seems to vary based on your role in the games industry.
 

Deleted member 51691

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 6, 2019
17,834
It's fine if Hugo Martin feels this way, he can live his life however he wants to, but I hope his attitude doesn't trickle down to the lower-level developers and pressures them to work past the eight-hour day if they don't want to.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,499
"There are people that think there literally should be laws that prevent people from working that hard. I always have to argue against that," he said, according to Vice. "There is a power to obsession and being able to obsess over something--your life's work. Instead of work-life balance, it's your life's work."

A lot of people won't understand this. There are some shitty practices in this industry, but there a lot of people who feel like this. It's the job of management teams and companies not to take advantage of this passion. That's the real issue here - either by forcing people to work those long hours or not paying them what they're due for doing so.

The whole issue of crunch is, at an industry level, a lot more nuanced that big corporations binding developers in chains and making them work 80 hour weeks to get a game out of the door. Some people just don't know when to switch off, unfortunately, but so long as it's a choice then that's okay.
 

iareharSon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,939
As long as it's truly his choice, and only effects him, then whatever. If those two things aren't true, then we have a problem. Having said that, it'd be nice for workaholics to still speak up on the issue, since everyone is not them.
 
Oct 30, 2017
272
If a "person" decides this is the way they want to live their life, then more power to them. I do not want to tell a "person" how to live there life even if I disagree with their methods. As long as they are not hurting anyone else.

As long as the "company" does not expect it of you and therefore punishes you for it, then I'm cool. If that is not the case, and there is pressure from the "company" to stay later then I cannot get down with that. At all.
 

PucePikmin

Member
Apr 26, 2018
3,744
imagine your life's work is a dumb video game.

Love to see the Sistine Chapel you're working on in your spare time.

I absolutely believe game developers should have protections and not be overworked, particularly low-level programmers and the like, but I think we need to draw back a bit as a community and not jump on every creator who's honest and says "this is my passion even outside the 8-hour workday," because that's a reality. It's always going to be a reality. The question is whether these passionate creative people are being properly taken care of and compensated.
 
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Richter1887

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Martin's an incredibly smart and talented guy, but what he's saying here is justifiable for him only because he's top of the food chain on the Doom games. Excuse my mixing metaphors, but it's a very different thing for people lower on the totem pole. That's who these anti-crunch movements are trying to protect - the little guy whose passion is exploited for the personal and financial gain of those at the top.
This

You said it better than I ever could.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
Workaholics exist in every industry. Some people really do go 150% after working 100% for months, and they love (and hate) it, like at the end of race where you push on despite having ran already at 100% the entire time, because you see everything coming together and this keeps you pushing. That's everyone's own choice, though. If you can't or won't, for whatever reason, leave the office after your hours and spend time with your friends, family or whatever else makes you happy.
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,378
I can imagine individuals having drives and determination akin to crunch. Masahiro Sakurai is quite literally this, and we're seeing it harm his health because he's going much further than most. I do not believe it is fair to apply that same drive to everybody else. Some people can barely handle the 9-5 grind, let alone a 24/7 one.

The mistake one can make is assuming everyone should be as driven and do as much, and that's what normalizes crunch. A healthy environment would allow those who feel they can put more in can do so, but not be one that implies because one person at the studio has the interest, the time, and the focus to do it, that you make a work culture where 70+ people are expected to follow that same blueprint.
 

Mobu

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
5,932
imagine thinking that fucking up your body and your relationships just to get some fine details on dooms guys armor or nathan drakes beard is worth it

The way some people rationalize this is just sad
 

Deleted member 21411

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,907
Square enix still has the best approach I think. I remember Yoshi p saying something along the lines of "everyone has a set amount of time off and you can work late but eventually you'll hit a certain number of hours and be forced to take that vacation and no one is allowed to work on Sundays"
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,708
This obviously isn't the case for pro soccer players or big music artists. They have normal 8 hour work days, then it's free time baby.
Also, Hugo Martin doesn't have a choice. He prob has very low pay and also couldn't get a job anywhere else.
We shouldn't be focusing on single moms working overtime or double jobs at walmart making no money and having no options; the real problem in society are people like Hugo Martin.
 

Roliq

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Sep 23, 2018
6,177
This is like saying that you like to work overtime without getting paid extra because you love work
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
It is fine if you want to work late on something. It is great if you are passionate about your job. Neither of those things are a problem. What IS a problem is forcing people to work unhealthy hours (through direct, or indirect, means). No one should ever fear for their jobs simply because they aren't working extra hours. There should be laws to protect people from that kind of toxicity.
 

Greywaren

Member
Jul 16, 2019
9,903
Spain
I mean, if that's what you want to do, that's fine, but normalizing this incredibly unhealthy "lifestyle" is terrible.
 

Psyrgery

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,744
I usually call bullshit on these practices but...

Hugo looks so passionate an excited when talking about Doom and Doom eternal and how they have managed to improve and expand upon the foundations made in doom2016
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
Martin's an incredibly smart and talented guy, but what he's saying here is justifiable for him only because he's top of the food chain on the Doom games. Excuse my mixing metaphors, but it's a very different thing for people lower on the totem pole. That's who these anti-crunch movements are trying to protect - the little guy whose passion is exploited for the personal and financial gain of those at the top.
Yeah he's liviing and breathing it because that's what he wants to do and really who else is gonna tell him not to? The bottom of the pole probably doesn't have that choice.
 

Se_7_eN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,721
Personally, I love crunch mode... Late night design talks fueled by coffee, new idea whiteboards, late night meetings over systems and future work ideas.

I don't know why I enjoy it, I just do. I find it comforting and almost relaxing.
 

legend166

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,113
Normal people who just make to make a living need to be protected from obsessed people with social and/or psychological issues.

Seriously I read a whole article on this a few years back which I can't for the life of me find. Basically it talked about how the tech industry in its early days attracted, essentially, for lack of a better term, lonely nerds with no social lives, and they were able to establish the work patterns that now dominate that industry.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,267
I figured some in the industry who do crunch might feel this way, and in having those feelings, a blanket boycott might in fact be spitting in the face of those who want to make these kinds of sacrifices for their art.

I'm not FOR crunch at all, I just think it's probably slightly more nuanced on a dev-to-dev basis. In no way should crunch be mandatory to keep a job or make deadlines. There definitely need to be standards and unions would go a long way in guiding such things and limiting harm.
 

nolifebr

Banned
Sep 1, 2018
11,465
Curitiba/BR
Does that bring back that conversation of: Video games are art? Because in art, you also often see sacrifices and commitments to result in the best think you've ever done in your life.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Does that bring back that conversation of: Video games are art? Because in art, you also often see sacrifices and commitments to result in the best think you've ever done in your life.
This was always a nonsense discussion. The definition of "art" is so vague I feel like the discussion is only had for people to validate what they already believe, because nothing fruitful ever comes of it