If only more people used this TR quote in which he takes a strong stance against listicles, which is definitely a more pertinent issue regarding online video game news websites.
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Don't You Dare Critique Video Games! (Jim Sterling video regarding Troy Baker's dismissal of TLOU2 criticism)
- Thread starter Raijinto
- Start date
I fully agree here, Troy was a bit weird with that tweet.
Though the essence of irony is fucking Jim Sterling making a video about someone saying something is too long when his videos are always minutes longer than they need to be as he talks in circles.
Though the essence of irony is fucking Jim Sterling making a video about someone saying something is too long when his videos are always minutes longer than they need to be as he talks in circles.
And yet people strangely don't make half as big a deal about Movie, TV, and music scores on Metacritic as they do for games. Funny that.
This seems to be very similar to me to the GoT situation where it was almost universally hated for the last season, and then the actors started saying the criticism is ridiculous, that many people put in many hours, and they deserve respect, etc.
Even Craig mazin, the guy who will hopefully put last of us on the map for many people with the series, said about Got last season that we should be lucky we got what we got, and criticism was not warranted.
I dont know if its this mioptic view of Neil and troy having been working on this game for 7 years and seeing the toil of many, thats all they see so any criticism to them seems like people taking a shit on 7 years worth of work, or if its a deliberate effort to change the conversation, sure it seems too long for some, but at least the game exists, and even if we fail, we fail doing something.
I mean, devs who take criticism this hard and personal cannot be just that sensitive, after decades in the gaming industry.
Even Craig mazin, the guy who will hopefully put last of us on the map for many people with the series, said about Got last season that we should be lucky we got what we got, and criticism was not warranted.
I dont know if its this mioptic view of Neil and troy having been working on this game for 7 years and seeing the toil of many, thats all they see so any criticism to them seems like people taking a shit on 7 years worth of work, or if its a deliberate effort to change the conversation, sure it seems too long for some, but at least the game exists, and even if we fail, we fail doing something.
I mean, devs who take criticism this hard and personal cannot be just that sensitive, after decades in the gaming industry.
Jim is totally on point. That Troy Baker tweet and the Cory Barlog one are really bad. The Druckmann one was pretty mild and reasonable even though I agree the Shindler's List tweet he defended was laughable. I don't think it should be part of the conversation.
I honestly don't understand what the "he wasn't comparing TLOU2 to Schindler's List, he was comparing his emotional response to TLOU2 with Schindler's List" argument even means
Yeah, that what I assumed he meant? How does that make it less embarrassing of a tweet?
Yeah, that what I assumed he meant? How does that make it less embarrassing of a tweet?
"He wasn't saying TLoU2 is as good as Schindler's List. He's saying that he got the same emotional reaction from both works."
Really? You did? Holy fucking shit.
Honestly I'm more baffled by the "everything is John Wick" part. I can understand why one would pick Shiendler's List, as bad as that choice is. If he had picked No Country for Old Men for example, it would have been perfectly reasonable. But saying that every game outside of TLOU2 is exclusively trying to be about entertaining action, is a very ignorant take. It's like he's only played Destiny and Overwatch in his life.
Yeah it's absolutely neccessary to be critical, it doesn't have to drop the score a ton but the negatives should always be highlighted so things can improve.
No game is perfect. Not even Best Game of All Time™ Zelda BOTW. And it's kinda ironic that it's always the laughed at user reviews, those people say we should just ignore, that brings up the negatives people can get really annoyed at, BOTW's weapon degrading and lack of dungeons for example. That rarely happens in the professional reviews.
If BOTW2 doesn't have as extreme weapon degrading, thank the "trolls" writing harsh user reviews, because it sure wasn't the 10/10 professional critics crowd that got Nintendo to change things.
(I love BOTW, just used it as an example)
You see, originally I thought the tweet was a massive spoiler and the late game twist was that we weren't in post-apocalyptic Seattle but instead 1944 Poland the whole time. Thankfully he clarified that the game was not, in fact, literally Schindler's List but a game about fungus zombies.
In a medium where every movie is Grand Theft Auto 3, Avenger's Endgame is finally Shadow of the Colossus
It's kind of ironic to see Jim Sterling, who rails so hard against any notion of "bullying" within this industry go to such lengths to justify it being okay to attack someone because of a rough sounding comparison between a game and a film... and in the same video where he complains about how game journalists are treated by others in the industry no less.
I think it's less that creatives/V.A are unable to respond to criticism that they get, and more that they do so in a half assed and defensive way. First off, it's really weird for Troy Baker to have taken "games are too long" personally; it didn't call him or TLoU2 out by name, and as a criticism it doesn't have much to do with his involvement with the game. But if he had taken the time to write out his thought, even a line of it, I don't think this would've been an issue. But he didn't do that, he posted a strange, not very applicable quote by Roosevelt and called it a day.
Imagine thinking that anything Jim Sterling has said about this debacle so far could be justified as an attack.
You are certainly describing a type of "gamer" that is common to find online. It is human nature to seek acceptance / validation for something you are passionate about, especially when that thing has been historically stigmatized for many years (the "videogames are for nerds/losers/sociopaths" rhetoric).
A pitfall of making these sort of observations is that the word "gamers" is a trap. The definition of those-who-play-games encompasses a massive spectrum of demographics and values. Some players will value the characters and story aspects above all else, while others prefer gameplay to the point of skipping all cutscenes.
So when you see discourse online there is always going to be this clash of ideals about what values are most important. This battleground is especially fierce around AAA games as they tend to attract a broader audience. Sequels exacerbate this because of built-in expectations - everyone thinks their particular brand of fandom is the one that should be catered to above all else!
Critique is most useful when the reader understands the author's values and respects them. Established critics with built-in audiences will fall into the habit of communicating in short-hand, trusting their readership to understand their full intentions. However on the Internet, and Twitter especially, this practice leads to otherwise innocuous thoughts becoming misconstrued by those unfamiliar with the critic's voice.
I never said it was him doing the attacking... just that he didn't seem to have a problem with others doing so. Indeed, he actually seems to have a serious issue with at least one person trying to defend the guy in fact.
A symptom of one of the many things plaguing the industry. Press are seen in terms of how useful they are as an extension of a company's PR. If that's threatened, journalists/outlets are blacklisted or pressured--even implicitly due to the power dynamics at play--to revisit or reconsider their reviews. (And let's not get into the volunteer arm of PR fueled by tribalism.)
It's hypocritical to want your product to be seen as something that elevates the medium as a piece of art while dissuading any critique that is deemed an obstacle to maximizing its commercial potential. You can't have it both ways.
It's hypocritical to want your product to be seen as something that elevates the medium as a piece of art while dissuading any critique that is deemed an obstacle to maximizing its commercial potential. You can't have it both ways.
OP
OP
He didn't attack that journalist. He just made fun of a laughable tweet.
100% agree with these posts. People don't want to engage in legitimate discourse surrounding games and simply take criticism as you attacking their favorite game. It's so laughable that we have gamers losing their minds each time TLoU2 drops a single Metacritic point as if a 94 score actually means it's "factually" better than a 93 scored game. Its even gone further than that with people counting the places it drops on the metacritic all time list even when it retains the same aggregate metascore lol
If a reviewer gives the game an 8 or god forbid a 7, there'll be a horde of users coming to defend the game and try to diminish the credibility of the reviewer. It's simply pathetic how invested gamers are in scores.
If games want to be treated as 'art' and elevated to that sort of status, then they need criticism and shouldn't shy away from it. I don't think relying on a 1-10 rating scale really helps either, but that might be going beyond the scope of this.
I wouldn't exactly say pointing out that maybe you shouldn't be comparing your AAA zombie video games to media about the holocaust of all things, being a bad take is "attacking". It's more of a "hey, maybe don't do that, it's pretty disrespectful" type of comment.
He attacks constantly and he's also guilty of doing what he complains about. It's why Jim sterling is one person, people should take with a grain of salt.
...this video isn't about that.
It's about how Jason Schreier tweeted that "video games are too long", and Troy Baker posted a freaking Roosevelt quote in response, in an attempt to shut down criticism.
If games want to be considered as 'art' then people should be able to critique them and let the art speak for itself.
That said, I rate the Mona Lisa a 7/10.
That said, I rate the Mona Lisa a 7/10.
I missed the tweet by the VA using TR's quote about something completely different to attack a journalist for making a slight criticism of a game is beyond the pale. Like literal crazy, cult level.
I feel like the behavior of the creatives attached to the game has been completely out of hand. I get they are proud of the game, but they can't seem to handle criticism because in their head, they are making Schindler's List when in reality the game is another John Wick.
I feel like the behavior of the creatives attached to the game has been completely out of hand. I get they are proud of the game, but they can't seem to handle criticism because in their head, they are making Schindler's List when in reality the game is another John Wick.
Wow, I never knew how much of a fragile baby Troy Baker was. That's pretty disappointing.
Saw this posted, and some claim said review was a parody review incorrectly added to the meta, while others claim it's the legit review?
If he wants it gone just because it's negative it hurts the metascore, then goddamn, zero respect for Troy.
Saw this posted, and some claim said review was a parody review incorrectly added to the meta, while others claim it's the legit review?
If he wants it gone just because it's negative it hurts the metascore, then goddamn, zero respect for Troy.
Most of the criticism has been on bad faith. It's pretty telling that this is probably the only place where you can discuss the game without the vitriol and bigotry shown everywhere else, camouflaged with the "lazy writing" or other made up arguments. Jason isn't a saint either with how he mocked that reviewer that compared his emotional response to the game to his emotional response to Schindler's list.
Troy is clearly wrong here, but the whole atmosphere around has been so trashy that it's not surprising to me that the actors and devs are overly sensitive regarding the game. Hell they are probably bothered 24/7 by deranged fuckers, most of them finding approval on gaming critics stirring the pot for fun.
Probably off-topic, but what was with the random Escape Dead Island footage thrown in there? I don't remember Troy Baker being in that.
If your emotional response to TLOU2 is the same as a movie about the holocaust...
you deserve to be mocked.
All Jason did was say his emotional response to the audio logs in Bioshock was approximately equivalent to his emotional response to the Diary of Anne Frank. What's wrong with that?
There are more things you can do before mocking, maybe telling the guy why he shouldnt compare
Is it not self evident why you shouldn't compare a video games to a movie about how 6 million plus Jewish and other people were murdered? Do you REALLY need to be told why that comparison doesn't work?
And for what its worth, he didn't mock them IMO. He called it out very eloquently.
It was meant to illustrate how the reviewer felt about the game.
It is no way shape or form suggesting that TLoU2's fiction is as important as events of the holocaust.
Druckmann himself(he is jewish) understood this.
And if someone mocks one reviewer's emotional reaction to something while criticizing others for being unable to handle a reviewer's opinion, they deserve to be called a hypocrite.
wait what?
are we seriously policing emotions now? there are plenty of themes in TLOU2 that might elicit emotions similar to what you might experienced in Schindler's List. I only watched the first VHS or first half of the movie, and i had several emotions.. shock, disgust, horror, sadness, helplessness, empathy, and anger. i experienced many of those in my playthrough of tlou2.
He is no way comparing both the thing.
It's the way he felt while playing this game Vs other games
The difference in playing tlou 2 with any other video game is like the difference in watching scinder list Vs John Wick for him
That's what his tweet meant
Telling someone they shouldn't compare a video games to a movie about the holocaust is not even in the same plain of existence as telling someone that they should be able to handle criticism of their game.
Precisely.
This was more of an analogy to compare the game to its peers in the medium.
It is not a comparison between zombies and holocaust.
Druckmann is so brave, standing up for the right of reviewers to compare his works to Schindler's List
"The Last of Us Part 2 is Schindler's List" might just be the most insane thing I've ever read on the Internet. And that includes Trump. Bravo.
Also, Baker has gotten so far up his own ass now it's ridiculous. Nolan and Retro Replay are better off without him.
Thank God for Jim.
User Banned (1 Week): Platform warring
I think it's mostly the Sony fans.
don't think Nintendo or Xbox fans give a shit
My favorite is when people try to separate out the content and historical material of the movie from the tweet to defend it. "He never said the holocaust youre making things up!!!!"
This isn't making the tweet better no matter how many threads you come in to say this in. Don't compare your zombie video game to a movie based on one of the most horrific acts of violence in recorded history. Its not a hard concept to grasp and you can compare how poignant part 2 was for you without having to resort to this.
Still missing the point.