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OP
OP
MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
Tried alternative ports? How about the port in front of the PC? Mobo/chipset drivers updated?

You might need to pull it apart and see what's going on.
It doesn't matter which ports. Front case ports, back straight into the motherboard, USB 2.0, USB 3.0, I've unplugged USB headers, disabled selective suspend in windows, as well as for each USB port manually. Doesn't matter. It is definitely some sort of grounding issue.
 
OP
OP
MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
You seem to have a lot of problems with PCs. I recall replying to one of your threads about your PC a few years ago.

There's nothing wrong with Custom PCs if you pick your parts and have a local computer shop build it. They usually come with warranties.
I generally agree you do not want to buy the advertised 'gaming' tier PCs on the fliers and such. A lot of them cut corners to advertise the headliners GTX 20XX graphics card for an ultra low price.
yeah silly me, it's just me being dumb, no issues here. thanks.
 

Rainer516

Member
Oct 29, 2017
981
I recently bought a Lenovo C730 prebuilt gaming PC. It cost slightly cheaper than buying the individual components and building it myself because apparently Lenovo has a ton of these lying around they are trying to get rid of.
The downside is that you can't customize the build at all, you have a limited stock to choose from but the build quality is great (I opened it up and made sure everything was secure and snug when it arrived) and the case is nto sold by itself.

With that said; yes - I think you should build your own PC 99% of the time and my experience with prrice is a lucky edge case.
 

Captain EZ8

Member
Oct 30, 2017
102
If you want if you post a picture in side of the pc of the motherboard and I can see if there is a problem with the wiring.
 

TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
that would be a workaround, but also a 200$ workaround for a similar mouse and keyboard to my wired ones, and a workaround I shouldn't have to deal with in the first place if they would just refund me.
Well, I agree, but its better than a useless PC. I use one of the cheapest logitech combos and don't need anything better.
 
OP
OP
MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
If you want if you post a picture in side of the pc of the motherboard and I can see if there is a problem with the wiring.
the wiring is fine, and as my OP states, I have sent it in for RMA already for this issue and they replaced the motherboard and RAM. I have also reseated and messed with all of the cables and USB headers in my extremely time consuming troubleshooting effotrts. I appreciate the help though!
 

MrH

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,995
I've been building my own PCs for about 15 years, that being said my friends are USELESS when it comes to computers so they bought prebuilt, they paid about £75 extra for the privilege but that includes a 3 year warranty so I honestly don't see it as a bad thing. It just depends where you buy from, a lot of premades are made using cheaper brands but not all.
 

R dott B

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,136
I bought a pc from them around 8ish years ago and refunded due to issues. Never again...
 

Spinky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,112
London
Man... I was gonna go with Cyberpower for my first (desktop) PC before doing some research and seeing people say they cheap out with certain parts. Thank God I just paid a bit extra to have a custom one built for me.
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,707
LA
For OP, if you have no luck with them, you still have the option of taking it to someone else that could fix it. It's even more lost money to replace what ever is wrong, but you can definitely salvage most of the parts.
 

ty_hot

Banned
Dec 14, 2017
7,176
we have done that as well as emailed all of their support emails with this. The thing that makes me the most mad is that the rep today didn't believe me about the problem. This would be the 3rd RMA and was like "uh...have you tried a different mouse?" YES MOTHERFUCKER! and then when he realized we knew what we were talking about he wouldn't say much and was completely unhelpful.
Probably some 'tech support' that works only with their premade problem/solution algorithms. Truth is most people that buy pre built stuff dont understand shit about PCs and are very likely to call there with the most absurd (non)problems so they are better of having random dudes just reading their scripted solutions instead of having an actual person that understands PCs.

It sucks when you know about PCs and obviously already tried a few possible solutions, Googled for at least half an hour for other ideas and when you call there they treat you like you are a grandpa that never used an electronic device before "Have you tried restarting the machine?"

Good luck with getting your money back, if you already posted on reddit just leave the link here so we can upvote it there and hopefuly help you.
 

Taco_Human

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,225
MA
Chargeback not possible through your credit card company? I'd absolutely get a refund for faulty hardware.
 
OP
OP
MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
When he moves the mouse, the encoder inside the mouse starts sending pulses down the data lines of the USB port, and those lines are causing the port to short out momentarily, killing power to the mouse before turning itself back on. It seems that the initial surge down the data line is killing the mouse every time. Hence, when he uses the mouse, every time, it temporarily turns off.
thanks it seems like you got my back on this lol.

BUT, it's not actually every time I move the mouse. It appears to be a ESD issue (i.e. my body shifting on the couch, I build up enough charge, grab the mouse, disconnect) This isn't an actual static shock (usually, that will replicate the issue too) that I can feel. Just even the smallest ESD will replicate the issue. I can straight up ZAP the same mouse hooked up to my other two PC's and it doens't even flinch. I can replicate the issue easily by rubbing my hand along the couch briefly and touching the mouse. Everything is high end and this shouldn't be happening anyway if there wasn't some sort of grounding fault (I had my GTX980 Z97 machine hooked up to this same set-up for years, same couch, and never experienced this)
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
thanks it seems like you got my back on this lol.

BUT, it's not actually every time I move the mouse. It appears to be a ESD issue (i.e. my body shifting on the couch, I build up enough charge, grab the mouse, disconnect) This isn't an actual static shock (usually, that will replicate the issue too) that I can feel. Just even the smallest ESD will replicate the issue. I can straight up ZAP the same mouse hooked up to my other two PC's and it doens't even flinch. I can replicate the issue easily by rubbing my hand along the couch briefly and touching the mouse. Everything is high end and this shouldn't be happening anyway if there wasn't some sort of grounding fault (I had my GTX980 Z97 machine hooked up to this same set-up for years, same couch, and never experienced this)

That's extremely weird. Is the mouse metal? I'm honestly confused as to how static electricity could short the port like that. Not claiming it's not, I'm just stumped.
 

Duxxy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,686
USA
What kind of case is it?

If it was me, I'd take the parts out of the case to see if it still happens. Also I'm assuming there's no grounding issues on that outlet?
 
OP
OP
MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
Probably some 'tech support' that works only with their premade problem/solution algorithms. Truth is most people that buy pre built stuff dont understand shit about PCs and are very likely to call there with the most absurd (non)problems so they are better of having random dudes just reading their scripted solutions instead of having an actual person that understands PCs.

It sucks when you know about PCs and obviously already tried a few possible solutions, Googled for at least half an hour for other ideas and when you call there they treat you like you are a grandpa that never used an electronic device before "Have you tried restarting the machine?"

Good luck with getting your money back, if you already posted on reddit just leave the link here so we can upvote it there and hopefuly help you.
Thanks! here is one of the reddit posts we put it on multiple subreddits, so you can click the username and find the other posts if you feel so inclined :)

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/fs01km/rantcyberpower_pc_nightmare_4_months_and_2000/
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
giphy.gif

This discussion shouldn't be about Pre-built vs Own-build.

It is the discussion about something trully extraordinary hardware defect when it comes to static electricity/current/conductivity, and one company's bad support policy.

I hope that you will not leave it Eddie refusing to do anything, and update us with either a full-replacement/refund/chargeback someday :)

The Cyberpower PC I bought in 2016 didn't come with a Windows key, so "Active Windows" has been permanently burned into the bottom-right corner of my screen for the past four goddamn years.

Windows key is $2 on ebay. Just do it.
 

Xero grimlock

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,944
Yeah and for price too, for the most part you are getting a better deal when you get parts yourself.

Simply following a youtube guide thoroughly should have you covered.
it's not always cheaper guys. I built my own (which I'm now having issues with and may scrap, but that's another issue) and a year later got one for my wife and cyber power had one with better specs for the same price so i figured I'd save myself the hassle.
 
OP
OP
MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
That's extremely weird. Is the mouse metal? I'm honestly confused as to how static electricity could short the port like that. Not claiming it's not, I'm just stumped.
It is a logtiech G502, so it probably has a little bit of metal in the scroll wheel I think? Still super bizarre, and I've used this same mouse on multiple machines for years and never had this problem. Even had one die on me after a couple years (the toggle on the wheel lock got wonky) and I bought another one because I loved it so much. Have used the newest one on my other computer as well, no issues
What kind of case is it?

If it was me, I'd take the parts out of the case to see if it still happens. Also I'm assuming there's no grounding issues on that outlet?
It is a Deepcool Matrexx 55 RGB ATX mid tower. The outlet is grounded, and just to be sure I tried it on another outlet in another room, same issue. I have two other PC's in the same house (a gtx980 buiild, and a gtx 780 buiild) and they do not exhibit this issue.
 

Deleted member 7948

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,285
What is wrong with this forum? OP just wanted to tell his bad experience buying a pre-built system and most of you start blaming him and giving unwanted advice.

"so guys, I bought a pre-built PC since I didn't want to bother building a pc and I wanted to treat my bf".
"OH YOU SHOULD BUILD IT YOURSELF, IT'S ACTUALLY PRETTY EASY".
"yeah, but I don't want to".
"OH IF YOU HAD DONE THAT, YOU'D KNOW HOW TO TROUBLESHOOT IT NOW".

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
 

TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,395
Tulsa, Oklahoma
I understand the OPs frustration, but the thread title is inviting the pre built vs building your own discussion when it's really just his computer that's having problems. This is not a pre built problem. This is a customer service problem from CyberpowerPC. The title should be changed to reflect that.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I think you're overestimating how much time it takes.

I build computers for all my friends and family, I like building computers. I do it regularly. I usually have to put aside a solid day to build one. Between getting the parts, assembling it, and installing windows and everything else, it adds up. I've built literally every computer I've ever used except my very first one in 1987 which was an Emmerson 8088. You're really downplaying how much of a time sink it can be. Besides, even if you can speed through the process in just an hour or so, some people don't want to devote an hour to doing something like this.
 

Duxxy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,686
USA
It is a logtiech G502, so it probably has a little bit of metal in the scroll wheel I think? Still super bizarre, and I've used this same mouse on multiple machines for years and never had this problem. Even had one die on me after a couple years (the toggle on the wheel lock got wonky) and I bought another one because I loved it so much. Have used the newest one on my other computer as well, no issues

It is a Deepcool Matrexx 55 RGB ATX mid tower. The outlet is grounded, and just to be sure I tried it on another outlet in another room, same issue. I have two other PC's in the same house (a gtx980 buiild, and a gtx 780 buiild) and they do not exhibit this issue.

Can you swap components with one of those other PC's?

edit: Basically a whole case swap.
 
OP
OP
MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
it's not always cheaper guys. I built my own (which I'm now having issues with and may scrap, but that's another issue) and a year later got one for my wife and cyber power had one with better specs for the same price so i figured I'd save myself the hassle.
exactly. We have both built PC's before, but the Holiday sale on cyberpower priced this out as about the same price (maybe even cheaper) and it came with some extra freebies. Just seemed like a good deal and we both work with computers at work everyday and wanted something plug and play. Lesson learned I guess lol
 
OP
OP
MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
Can you swap components with one of those other PC's?

edit: Basically a whole case swap.
I could do that with my old build, but I'm currently using it in my recording studio and don't really want to mess with much (all my plug-ins for Ableton, etc if something fucks up) I also don't want to introduce my good PC parts into this machine that has obvious electrical issues and potentially fry them. I swapped my 980 into this machine to diagnose the RTX2070 super that fried in this machine originally 2 days after I got it (in January LOL) but I am hesitant to introduce other components now to this faulty system.
 

Jtrizzy

Member
Nov 13, 2017
619
For people who struggle with building and repairing, I recommend just getting a Geek Squad account, and have them build it for you. There is no requirement that you buy all the parts at Best Buy, and any issues you have going forward are covered, outside of anything needing RMA. Depending on where you live, there are probably independent computer stores who can do it, but it will likely be more expensive, and they aren't going to fix it for free if you have issues down the road.
 

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
Tbh you can still get problems like that when you build your own PC. I had some issues with my PC a few years ago, and it was really hard to figure out the source of the problems. Was it a faulty GPU? Or the mainboard? Maybe the power supply unit? If you don't have replacement parts, you can't really test, so which part are you going to RMA?

Luckily, I was able to get my hands on another power supply unit and test it, and that was the cause. Sold my PC after that and switched to consoles. But I understand not everyone wants to do that of course. For your problem, I would try to contact them by email and get this in writing. That way you also have documentation in case this goes to the courts.
 
OP
OP
MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
That's kind of the unknown with troubleshooting though. It might not take any time, or it might take a bunch. And the result of the troubleshooting might still be 'something's broken.'
right. Another poster in this thread seemed to be ragging on me because I had a PC issue two years ago (random BSOD crashes, it turned out to be solved by reseating the ram, thank god, so now I know to do that first lol) But over the past 2 years I've learned a lot and am pretty well versed in troubleshooting. Have already spent hours trying to solve this problem and now I'm at "something's broken" and I have no ability to RMA indivudal parts to the manufacturer, and am at the mercy of an entire machine RMA to a company who already told me they don't believe me that I am having a problem.
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,806
the wiring is fine, and as my OP states, I have sent it in for RMA already for this issue and they replaced the motherboard and RAM. I have also reseated and messed with all of the cables and USB headers in my extremely time consuming troubleshooting effotrts. I appreciate the help though!
Would it be possible for you to bring the rig to a friend's house -and- use a different power cable and power strip?

I suspect the problem is potentially two fold: (1) The power supply (house) being slightly faulty and (2) the PSU and/ or power cable/ power strip you use being faulty as well (2). I specify slightly because a fully functioning power strip or likely PSU would probably filter it out/ ground it out.
Bringing the rig to a completely different power supply environment would test that.

My reasoning is that I can't imagine why they would go through all that and lie about not being able to reproduce the problem tbh.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Tbh you can still get problems like that when you build your own PC. I had some issues with my PC a few years ago, and it was really hard to figure out the source of the problems. Was it a faulty GPU? Or the mainboard? Maybe the power supply unit? If you don't have replacement parts, you can't really test, so which part are you going to RMA?

Luckily, I was able to get my hands on another power supply unit and test it, and that was the cause. Sold my PC after that and switched to consoles. But I understand not everyone wants to do that of course. For your problem, I would try to contact them by email and get this in writing. That way you also have documentation in case this goes to the courts.

I don't think OPs problem is that there is a fault with the build. It's more that he expects service and warranty to be part of the price he paid, as in he paid more for a pre-built to know that, if something was wrong, someone else was already paid to fix it for him. Except, it's not. He paid more money explicitly for guaranteeing his stuff would be fixed, and they're outright telling him it's not broken. Meaning he basically paid for nothing.
 

ghibli99

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,704
I built a $3000 rig for my friend this past November. Went smoothly enough, but it wouldn't post when I powered it up and I swear I nearly had a heart attack! Tried 'everything' until I realized the mobo had a diagnostic LED array on it, and it was simply one of the sticks of RAM not seated 100% right, which is something I'm usually quite picky and careful about. Reseated them and voila, it worked. But damn, I was not looking forward to unplugging and replugging in everything to see what the problem was. Really, really didn't want it to be some DOA component. I really enjoy building PCs, but there is always that risk factor involved. But so far, every system I've built has been fine. [knock on wood] I did buy an iBuyPower PC close to a decade ago. For the price, I couldn't buy the components it came with for what I paid. I ended up transplanting the innards into a nicer case, which is also an easier way for those new to building PCs to tinker without having to do everything from scratch, and you also get to see where everything goes, do better drive/cable management, etc.
 
OP
OP
MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
Would it be possible for you to bring the rig to a friend's house -and- use a different power cable and power strip?

I suspect the problem is potentially two fold: (1) The power supply (house) being slightly faulty and (2) the PSU and/ or power cable/ power strip you use being faulty as well (2). I specify slightly because a fully functioning power strip or likely PSU would probably filter it out/ ground it out.
Bringing the rig to a completely different power supply environment would test that.

My reasoning is that I can't imagine why they would go through all that and lie about not being able to reproduce the problem tbh.
The thing about that is, if those were the issues, wouldn't this same problem manifest in the two other gaming PC's I own that I have hooked up to the exact same set-up to confirm the problem exists only in the cyberpower machine? This is all sound advice, don't get me wrong, but I have two other gaming rigs that I cannot replicate this issue on.
 
OP
OP
MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
I don't think OPs problem is that there is a fault with the build. It's more that he expects service and warranty to be part of the price he paid, as in he paid more for a pre-built to know that, if something was wrong, someone else was already paid to fix it for him. Except, it's not. He paid more money explicitly for guaranteeing his stuff would be fixed, and they're outright telling him it's not broken. Meaning he basically paid for nothing.
exactly. If there are build/component issues, so be it. That's fine. My problem is, at this point they are treating me like an idiot and refusing me a refund for a PC I ordered 4 months ago that still doesn't work. and they outright said they can't replicate the issue, so if I send it in for ANOTHER rma (the 3rd RMA) by the time I get it back it will have been 5 months (or more) and I will likely receive the machine back with the same issues. Half a year, $2000 dollars, and a PC that still has electrical problems because the reps want to mansplain to me how windows selective suspend USB works, is not acceptable.
 

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
I don't think OPs problem is that there is a fault with the build. It's more that he expects service and warranty to be part of the price he paid, as in he paid more for a pre-built to know that, if something was wrong, someone else was already paid to fix it for him. Except, it's not. He paid more money explicitly for guaranteeing his stuff would be fixed, and they're outright telling him it's not broken. Meaning he basically paid for nothing.

Yeah that's why I said he should get this in writing, if he calls them they can just lie. But if he has emails of everything they won't be able to weasel their way out so easily, and he has better chances if he wants to pursue legal action.

Edit: Might be even better to contact them via social media, for example Twitter. Companies are often much more responsive / friendly when the issue is public

https://twitter.com/CYBERPOWERPC/with_replies
 
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OP
OP
MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
Yeah that's why I said he should get this in writing, if he calls them they can just lie. But if he has emails of everything they won't be able to weasel their way out so easily, and he has better chances if he wants to pursue legal action.

Edit: Might be even better to contact them via social media, for example Twitter. Companies are often much more responsive / friendly when the issue is public

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yeah, I posted a bunch on reddit, and emailed ALL of their support emails with the issue, the video of it happening, my experience, etc. If they still blow me off when they respond to the support email, I will blast them on twitter as a last resort. I don't want to get anybody in trouble, I know everyone is having a hard time with how crazy the world is right now. Honestly I just want my $1700 back so I can build the computer myself. the machine was bought on December 27th as a rig to play Doom Eternal and Resident Evil 3 on specifically, and that's not really happening now. I assumed there would be more than enough time.
 

j7vikes

Definitely not shooting blanks
Member
Jan 5, 2020
5,620
What is wrong with this forum? OP just wanted to tell his bad experience buying a pre-built system and most of you start blaming him and giving unwanted advice.

"so guys, I bought a pre-built PC since I didn't want to bother building a pc and I wanted to treat my bf".
"OH YOU SHOULD BUILD IT YOURSELF, IT'S ACTUALLY PRETTY EASY".
"yeah, but I don't want to".
"OH IF YOU HAD DONE THAT, YOU'D KNOW HOW TO TROUBLESHOOT IT NOW".

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

I went through this and was getting ready to post something very similar to this. I bought something for a lot of money and it doesn't work and the company hasn't been helpful shouldn't be met with "what the hell did you do that for?!"

OP thanks for posting. I'm not a PC gamer, but might become one at some point. I hope this gets worked out in some manner for you and your boyfriend.
 

Dave.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,139
Not everyone has the time for building or troubleshooting.
You clearly underestimate the potential time taken troubleshooting a pre-built, as demonstrated here.

MazeHaze damn, all this time in the PC builders thread and I didn't notice it was a prebuilt :( Speak to your credit card company and return this PC for a refund, now more out of principle than anything. There is no way they tested it properly and were unable to reproduce the issue, given your description. And then to have "forgot" and palmed you off when you contact them again, nope unacceptable. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, they were probably in an anti-static workplace and perhaps even wearing anti-static grounded strap, but that's just not paying attention to the complaint.

If you do intend to fix this yourself, it guess with 99% certainty changing the PSU and case will sort it out. 90% of that is the PSU. It's surely a weird (lack of) grounding issue.
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,918
Ehhh, I built my newest PC myself, and tbh it was a fucking nightmare

Not surprised people go with prebuilts, but in this case, what a nightmare

hope it gets resolved
 
Nov 1, 2017
8,061
Buying prebuilt is not the problem, their customer service definitely is. However to add to that places like CyberPower or Ibuypower isn't exactly high quality places. Basically your getting something like from Best Buy or Walmart. If you do a look up online on youtube and all you'll see some horror stories.
 

Deleted member 56752

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 15, 2019
8,699
exactly. If there are build/component issues, so be it. That's fine. My problem is, at this point they are treating me like an idiot and refusing me a refund for a PC I ordered 4 months ago that still doesn't work. and they outright said they can't replicate the issue, so if I send it in for ANOTHER rma (the 3rd RMA) by the time I get it back it will have been 5 months (or more) and I will likely receive the machine back with the same issues. Half a year, $2000 dollars, and a PC that still has electrical problems because the reps want to mansplain to me how windows selective suspend USB works, is not acceptable.
Jesus. This whole thread is spooping me on my prebuilt alienware
 
OP
OP
MazeHaze

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,575
I went through this and was getting ready to post something very similar to this. I bought something for a lot of money and it doesn't work and the company hasn't been helpful shouldn't be met with "what the hell did you do that for?!"

OP thanks for posting. I'm not a PC gamer, but might become one at some point. I hope this gets worked out in some manner for you and your boyfriend.
thank you for your understanding. Yeah I just want to warn people too. I saw a lot of scaremongering posts about this company but you know, the negative reviews get the most amplification and such. I wasn't mad at all with the first two RMA's. Shit happens, it's fine. Honestly if they would have offered me a refund today it would have been all good. Them bascially calling me a liar, refusing to elevate me, refusing to give me a name of a supervisor, and then telling me they couldn't help me is what got me mad now. Bad luck happens, components are bad, etc. That's all fine, the world's not perfect, I'm pretty reasonable. I just wanted to have a nice PC for a nice late Xmas present and now it seems like that can't even happen we will have to take this machine to an independent repair shop or something.
 

Mindfreak191

Member
Dec 2, 2017
4,764
The last time I bought a pre built was the first time I bought a PC since I only knew that I want a pixel shader 3 GPU lol....but on another note maybe this will help, so my current PC is connected to a surge protector which on the other hand is connected into another surge protector, now, one day my wife decided to plug in a fan into one of them, and every time she would change the setting on the fan my logitech g810 keyboard would disconnect and connect, so it could be a problem with your powersource and not the PC itself, but all in all for $2k you shouldn't have had to go through that trouble at all, if you're already good with PC the better choice would've been to build it yourself, but I see what you mean when you say that you just wanted to save some time etc. happens to the best of us.