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Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
I don't think you'll have to worry about that for a while. For now the only delivery system that works is headphones. They're still trying to tackle 2-speaker presentation, and multispeaker setups sound like they may be years away.

I am unfortunately aware, which is an even larger issue in and of itself. Sony's solution is ultimately terrible for surround system owners. It's apparently years out, still unknown whether they'll get it working at all (and to what quality), and will quite possibly still require people buy new audio hardware (ironically and supposedly the chief reason they didn't want to use Atmos).
 
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Deleted member 23046

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,876
Beside the tech what Sony can provide is cheap or free certification and licensing inside the PlayStation ecosystem. I can't say precisely for the ATMOS format but it's more or less true for all : the production and supply chain needs to be on norms and that has a practical and financial implications. And Dolby is a S rank company regarding quality and requirements for both customers and producers.
 

GTVision

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,068
I mean, its a big deal for Playstation, who hasn't really had 3D Audio on their platform before, but for those of us on PC or Xbox is just old news as we've been using it for years. Probably the best thing to come out of this is hopefully wider support from developers because now its on all the big platforms.

Sure, Sony is doing some stuff to make it easier on the developers to implement it but for the consumer the end-result is basically the same.
Except that with Dolby Atmos you need specific hardware to use it, what Sony seems to be doing is that it works with your current hardware (headphones, tv's m, etc.). Why not just wait to see what Tempest is gonna bring instead of jumping to conclusions...like always.
 

Deleted member 10612

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,774
Does Dolby use HRTF over headphones with the prospect of cHRTF? And isn't the guy interviewed here comparing apple to oranges? Atmos on console's has 32 sources atm (+ licensing cost) thus making Cerny's statement correct, who cares what cinemas have.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
Except that with Dolby Atmos you need specific hardware to use it, what Sony seems to be doing is that it works with your current hardware (headphones, tv's m, etc.). Why not just wait to see what Tempest is gonna bring instead of jumping to conclusions...like always.

No

www.dolby.com

Step up your game with Dolby

Level up with the spatial sound of Dolby Atmos and the lifelike visuals of Dolby Vision for gaming. Dolby is a sponsor of the 2022 Halo Championship Series.
 

Praedyth

Member
Feb 25, 2020
6,519
Brazil
I don't think you'll have to worry about that for a while. For now the only delivery system that works is headphones. They're still trying to tackle 2-speaker presentation, and multispeaker setups sound like they may be years away.

That's a shame tho. I was really excited when Cerny said about audio for everyone, I really like to show "things" that the "game box" do to my mother, she is always impressed. While I can't afford a multi-speaker system, I could show 3D audio to her with the TV speaker with Tempest. Maybe in 2021, who knows...
 

TooFriendly

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,025
And Dolby is a S rank company regarding quality and requirements for both customers and producers.

Not really. There are cellphones with stereo speakers that have atmos certification.
I've heard a lot of opinions that Auro 3D is a better implementation of height channels, unfortunately it doesn't matter which technology is the best one. Whatever technology get a foothold in the market first is the one that will stay.

I'm not very happy that sony is focussing on headphones and stereo tv speakers before surround setups.
 

Deleted member 23046

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,876
[
Not really. There are cellphones with stereo speakers that have atmos certification.
I've heard a lot of opinions that Auro 3D is a better implementation of height channels, unfortunately it doesn't matter which technology is the best one. Whatever technology get a foothold in the market first is the one that will stay.

I'm not very happy that sony is focussing on headphones and stereo tv speakers before surround setups.
I said the company, I am sure there is debate about one or all their products, but they are at the top of the audiovisual food chain.
 

Romir

Member
Oct 28, 2017
79
They're output linear PCM. There's no reason to use a compressed format. The 3D effect will be baked into the 6-8 channel stream.
I was replying to a post about how PCM doesn't support height speakers audio channels. So if they want real 3d sound outside of headphones they need to wrap it in container that receivers, soundbars, and upfiring TVs support. For example all of Sony's soundbars above $200 support Atmos and DTS:X for their upfiring speakers.

Consoles having native support for height speakers has been the #2 thing I want this generation behind standard SSDs. I've been gaming with 4 height speakers since 2015. Like 7.1's rear channels I've found games make better use of the additional speakers than movies. There's so much more off screen audio in games, and with greater persistence than movies with their modern fast cuts.
 

Ukumio

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,415
Australia
Except that with Dolby Atmos you need specific hardware to use it, what Sony seems to be doing is that it works with your current hardware (headphones, tv's m, etc.). Why not just wait to see what Tempest is gonna bring instead of jumping to conclusions...like always.
I can use Dolby Atmos with literally any pair of headphones on Xbox and PC. Sure, you need to buy a software license (which thankfully works across devices) but there is no special hardware requirements, at least for headphones.

I hope that Tempest has a atmos equivalent as a baseline. But Atmos and Spatial Audio is not 3d audio. Object based means they can take a sound a move through the scene. 3d Audio is that sound exists at a position and stays there and only moves around when a object it is attached to moves.
You literally just described Dolby Atmos.
 

Bunzy

Banned
Nov 1, 2018
2,205
That's a shame tho. I was really excited when Cerny said about audio for everyone, I really like to show "things" that the "game box" do to my mother, she is always impressed. While I can't afford a multi-speaker system, I could show 3D audio to her with the TV speaker with Tempest. Maybe in 2021, who knows...

You could just buy a pair of cheap headphones and put them on her when ps5 drops.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
That 32 object limit makes it very much not the same. Home Theater and Cinema modes do up to 118 objects.
I mean, that it works the same and is a processing limit rather than any difference in production.
The Windows Spatial Audio API, which games use to deliver the audio to Dolby Atmos and DAH and Windows Sonic goes to 112 objects.
Even then, because of the nature of multi platform development, I think useage of additional objects beyond the bed audio has been super limited.
Whereas the baseline for audio has been stereo due to being held back by PS4, the baseline is now 16 channel speaker setups.
We should see the object based audio happening more often
 
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Marble

Banned
Nov 27, 2017
3,819
For me personally the 2 most exciting things next gen: 3D audio and games built around SSD storage.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,991
I remember turning stuff like EAX on when I played Thief and it simply sounded like reverb was added to everything. I did like my Sound Blasters from back in the day though. You definitely needed those then. But today? On-board audio is truly more than good enough. There's no reason to get a sound card now unless you want some kind of specialized input or output.
Environmental effects included things like occlusion, not just reverb. Even just properly tuned reverb can add a lot to a scene though - and it's something that many games were missing once people stopped using sound cards.
EAX did start out basic, but got pretty good toward the end. EAX 5.0 supported 128 objects with four effects each.
I think many people may not have configured it properly though, as I remember the drivers allowing you to do things such as enabling reverb on all audio system-wide.

The X-Fi's CMSS-3D technology still produces some of the best directional audio I've heard in games.
Maybe their HRTF just works particularly well for me, but I get really good directionality from it - and it produces 3D sound from basically any game using DirectSound3D HW.

F.E.A.R. always stood out to me as having amazing directional audio if you were using headphones and CMSS-3D, and it used EAX 4.0 for environmental effects.
I'm not sure how well it demos in a video for someone that's not actually playing the game:


Yeah I've experienced some of those. Unfortunately I've usually found them underwhelming, especially when they attempt to make it sound like there's something behind me. Maybe it's something with my hearing.
It could be that you're an outlier and don't fit any of the standard HRTFs. I'd be interested to see what you think of the CMSS-3D examples above.
Note: you must use stereo headphones - and it probably makes a difference if you're using in/on/over-ear headphones too.

How come nobody seems to care about audio processing in PC games these days? I remember when tech like this was popping up all the time for PCs back when discrete sound cards were popular. Now almost everyone just acts like onboard/video card audio is "good enough" and at most will just buy a high-quality DAC to plug in for headphones. I had come to the conclusion that past a certain point gamers just didn't care if sound was any better or not. I wonder if that's still true.
Microsoft removed DirectSound3D's hardware acceleration support with Windows Vista due to a new audio driver model - which is what was required for things like multichannel audio, 3D audio, and EAX effects in old games.
People seemed to think that this meant your old sound card didn't work any more, but Creative released the ALchemy software which translated those old DirectSound3D HW calls to OpenAL so they continued to work - and still do work even on Windows 10. Nearly every game I've tested still works if you have an X-Fi sound card installed.
That was combined with on-board audio becoming commonplace, and CPUs now being fast enough to handle things like multichannel audio without requiring dedicated hardware any more. Game audio design has improved a lot, but many games actually still don't do things like occlusion, and can't support long reverbs - because those can still be computationally expensive when you aren't using dedicated hardware.
 
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gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,312
America

Oh dang, so MPEG-H is to Dolby Atmos what HDR10 is to Dolby Vision?

I was waiting for HDMI 2.1 to buy a receiver, now I see I must include MPEG-H in my requirement list. I do think it is likely that Sony use MPEG-H as their carrier if they ever figure out how to do tempest audio over 5.1 setups.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
At this point the only thing I'm interested in is how Sony plans to deliver their 3D surround format to receivers, how many/which speakers it supports, and what their recommended placement guidelines are. MPCM does not support discrete height speakers/channels and Dolby/DTS sure as shit aren't going to let them piggyback on their transports to push a competing format. The obvious solutions are you will either have to buy new AVR's that support the Tempest/360Reality format, or they will use MPCM and fake/virtualize height effects from the 5 or 7 ground plane speakers. Both scenarios are terrible IMO, but are the only solutions I can conceive of.

It's not a 3D format for receivers, it's for headphones. It's an extension of the other HRTF tech used by Dolby Atmos for Headphones and Windows Sonic and Sony's PsVR solutions , which were both designed for VR headsets.
It simulates speakers or audio objects (that can move in real time) around the space around the user.


The talk about it working with speakers was mainly them talking about the additional complications to extend do 3D processing for a room you need to know exactly where the user is sitting and calculate the effects of every wall, ceiling, object , material in the room around the user. Which you also need to measure.

Using headphones removes that particular infinite array of variables that already sits on the variables of people's own anatomy and brains
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,261
Those questions and responses are about as milquetoast and vague while being pleasant as possible. In general it sounds like both MS and Sony are both pushing for much better audio in games in their own manners which is good for everyone. A rising tide raises all ships.
 
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KernelC

alt account
Banned
Aug 28, 2019
3,561
If my guess is correct then I expect support in games for Tempest to skyrocket past Atmos support as I think Sony is planning to use Wwise as a Trojan horse so that support is integrated for Tempest in hundreds of games that launch each year.
that would be splendid, I am sure the audio designer of my team will be pleased if this is the case
 

Chamon

Member
Feb 26, 2019
1,221
we fall back on sage advice from developers of some of the first Atmos games: Objects are a fantastic tool, but restraint should be shown with respect to the number of objects active at any time. Too many objects in motion can create a confusing soundscape.
As a sound engineer, I can agree with this. But this is only due to the limitations of conventional sound software processing. If you can not transform the sound of many objects in a realistic way, according to their positions in space related to the "point of hearing", too many will sound strange and confusing. But this is not what happens in real life. If you go to a crowded event, you will be hearing thousands of objects emitting sound, and they all blend perfectly. If Sony system is as good as they say, they may be able to actually try to emulate that. Let's say, instead of using a stereo audio file of a soundscape of a city, with cars, people walking, etc. they could make every object to project their own sound and the processor would make the adjustments to each one so it can give the same sensation that you would have in real life. I don't know if that is what PS5 will bring, but that was my impression listening to Cerny.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,734
I think what will be key for Sony is to what extent they can develop audio as a scaleable part of the development pipeline. Wwise might help there. I don't know anything about audio engineering, but to get over the hump of 'why do this just for PS5, or these consoles with this capability?', maybe they can offer a toolset via wwise that lets an engineer build at the highest 'resolution' of audio, and then dither down to support whatever the target platform allows in terms of object processing or whatnot. I assume it has to be part of the thinking in that middleware acquisition - to encourage devs to 'go big' while not having to worry about varying performance envelopes.
 

ShapeGSX

Member
Nov 13, 2017
5,210
You do know Dolby Atmos is the standard audio format on UHD Blu-rays movies. Since PS5 includes a UHD Blu-ray drive I'm going to assume it can also play UHD movies. Without Dolby Atmos it would be a crippled movie player.
That's just a bitstream that gets sent to the Atmos decoder in a receiver. The PS5 wouldn't actually be doing any processing on it.
 

Praedyth

Member
Feb 25, 2020
6,519
Brazil
You could just buy a pair of cheap headphones and put them on her when ps5 drops.

Yep, I already did that but she doesn't like the feeling of things inside her ear. If they manage to do 3D audio on TV speakers it would be amazing. The immersion of sound without buying expensive hardware. My parents really like to watch me and my brother playing, specially story-driven games.

Anyway, sorry for the off-topicness.
 

Deleted member 49611

Nov 14, 2018
5,052
dolby atmos will be hard to beat. sure PS5's tempest stuff will probably win in the video game space but for overall quality/performance Dolby is the winner.

i don't care what Sony call it. it's just fake simulated 3D audio that won't even require dedicated hardware. this is meant to work on cheap crappy stereo TV speakers? lol. i'm not saying it'll be bad...it might be great but call it what it is.
 
Jun 2, 2019
4,947
i don't care what Sony call it. it's just fake simulated 3D audio that won't even require dedicated hardware. this is meant to work out cheap crappy stereo TV speakers? lol. i'm not saying it'll be bad...it might be great but call it what it is.

No, you're literally saying it will be bad. HRTF is not simple "Simulated" 3D audio, same with Virtual Surround, there's a science around it and it actually works as intended
 

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
It's not a 3D format for receivers, it's for headphones. It's an extension of the other HRTF tech used by Dolby Atmos for Headphones and Windows Sonic and Sony's PsVR solutions , which were both designed for VR headsets.
It simulates speakers or audio objects (that can move in real time) around the space around the user.


The talk about it working with speakers was mainly them talking about the additional complications to extend do 3D processing for a room you need to know exactly where the user is sitting and calculate the effects of every wall, ceiling, object , material in the room around the user. Which you also need to measure.

Using headphones removes that particular infinite array of variables that already sits on the variables of people's own anatomy and brains

That's certainly not how I (or most people) interpreted Cerney's comments. At launch yes, it's headphones only, but it definitely sounds like they intend to eventually extend something to discete multi-speaker systems (possibly/presumably with a measured setup process).
 

MajesticSoup

Banned
Feb 22, 2019
1,935
Sony needs to give us more information about multi speaker setups.
Atmos: console supports atmos, receiver supports atmos - good to go
Tempest: ???
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
That's certainly not how I (or most people) interpreted Cerney's comments. At launch yes, it's headphones only, but it definitely sounds like they intend to eventually extend something to discete multi-speaker systems (possibly/presumably with a measured setup process).

I honestly think the talking about the Tv speakers was just a bit of lip service for non headset users, but again it's nice it's built in. The best experience will be with headphones by a country mile. It'll be easy to demo either way, as an audio recording straight from the Ps5 will contain that data to create the effect .
 

ShapeGSX

Member
Nov 13, 2017
5,210
Whatever sound listening device you have will not require a license. That's one of the ideas.
The trouble is that Sony's solution needs to know the precise configuration of your speaker setup. That's where Atmos has an advantage. Since Atmos is built into the receiver, it knows the distance to the listener for every speaker.

If I have a 7.1.2 setup (and I do), Sony can't access those height speakers without using Atmos or one of the other height speaker encodings. I don't think that HDMI supports more than 7.1 over PCM. So that means they would need their own encoding which means licensing, except Sony gets the money instead of Dolby.

I really have my doubts that Sony can get this working with generic surround systems. There are simply too many unknowns in the system to account for.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
The trouble is that Sony's solution needs to know the precise configuration of your speaker setup. That's where Atmos has an advantage. Since Atmos is built into the receiver, it knows the distance to the listener for every speaker.

If I have a 7.1.2 setup (and I do), Sony can't access those height speakers without using Atmos or one of the other height speaker encodings. I don't think that HDMI supports more than 7.1 over PCM. So that means they would need their own encoding which means licensing, except Sony gets the money instead of Dolby.

I really have my doubts that Sony can get this working with generic surround systems. There are simply too many unknowns in the system to account for.
Sony is not even trying for generic sound systems right now. Their first goal is handphones. Followed by simple stereo from your tv speakers. Actual surround sound is not coming before launch, and is a long term goal.

I have a 7.1 as well and know that it requires calibration for meaningful results. I think this is mainly for headphones (VR) and stereo application.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
I think this is mainly for headphones (VR) and stereo application.

that's exactly what it's for as that impacts the largest number of gamers. The need to have multiple speakers is negated by the ability to understand why the sound is perceived the way it is by the user. We only have 2 ear holes after all
 

ShapeGSX

Member
Nov 13, 2017
5,210
Sony is not even trying for generic sound systems right now. Their first goal is handphones. Followed by simple stereo from your tv speakers. Actual surround sound is not coming before launch, and is a long term goal.

I have a 7.1 as well and know that it requires calibration for meaningful results. I think this is mainly for headphones (VR) and stereo application.

Agreed.Support for multi channel speakers is probably years down the road, if it ever comes at all.

If Sony chooses not to support Atmos, as Microsoft has, we will be stuck with just 7.1 on the PS5.
 

TaKeRx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
581
Do we know what speakers or soundbar will Sony's sound chip work with? Or will it just work with everything? I'm confused there and was hoping i can still use my A50s.
 

Karak

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,088
That's certainly not how I (or most people) interpreted Cerney's comments. At launch yes, it's headphones only, but it definitely sounds like they intend to eventually extend something to discete multi-speaker systems (possibly/presumably with a measured setup process).
Its headphones and the best representation will be on headphones. However, his indication was that you would be able to hear the difference on anything. Which is true and with higher fidelity and choices will be noticeable. However headphones will be where the true game changer would be for awhile
 

Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,222
Its headphones and the best representation will be on headphones. However, his indication was that you would be able to hear the difference on anything. Which is true and with higher fidelity and choices will be noticeable. However headphones will be where the true game changer would be for awhile
So I'll be honest I don't understand the audio aspect of this at all. So this is the most relevant question to me. Realistically, when I pick up a PS5 and start to use it on my TV and do NOT use headphones, what am I actually going to get then in terms of audio from this thing? I'm struggling to understand between something eventually and nothing.

I personally don't game on headphones outside of my PC.
 

Snake Eater

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,385
VMKPi8z.jpg

this never gets old
 

neoak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,258
Do we know what speakers or soundbar will Sony's sound chip work with? Or will it just work with everything? I'm confused there and was hoping i can still use my A50s.
This is for internal sound work in the game. How it is communicated externally hasn't changed. You can still get 5.1 out by HDMI extractor if you wanna use the A50s.
 

Chamon

Member
Feb 26, 2019
1,221
So I'll be honest I don't understand the audio aspect of this at all. So this is the most relevant question to me. Realistically, when I pick up a PS5 and start to use it on my TV and do NOT use headphones, what am I actually going to get then in terms of audio from this thing? I'm struggling to understand between something eventually and nothing.

I personally don't game on headphones outside of my PC.
I'm going to try to explain what PS5 will attempt in the audio field (and presumably xbox too). There are two different things:

1. There is going to be a lot more of processing power dedicated exclusively to audio. This means that they can produce more realistic sounds within the environment of the game related to the position of the player. Check this video for more info: https://youtu.be/pIzwo-MxCC8
Note how the water drop sounds in the cave change as the point of view varies (it is amazing!). Nowadays games already do that, but generally not very well...

2. Even if the sound that the console is able to produce is fantastic, in the end it just comes out from your speakers, and it is affected by your environment (living room or wherever yo play). This means that you will always be able to tell where the sound is coming from (the speakers), but with the technology that Cerny described, they are aiming to cheat your brain to actually think that the sound is actually being generated in your real environment (this is the HRTF part). This is something that is more or less feasible with headphones, as they overlap all the acoustic information that your surroundings are providing, but he claimed that they are studying how they can achieve this effect too, using external speakers as the ones of the TV or a home theatre. I find that very difficult to do because a lot of factors come to play, but if they say so... 🤞
 

dpanim

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,567
Does anyone think Sony will make a headset specifically for the PS5 like they did with the Silver/Gold/Platinum line for PS3/PS4? My Gold headset is showing some signs of wear and tear, and I'm wondering if it's worth it to replace it now or wait and see if they manufacture a new headset to go along with all of this fancy audio tech they're touting.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
Does anyone think Sony will make a headset specifically for the PS5 like they did with the Silver/Gold/Platinum line for PS3/PS4? My Gold headset is showing some signs of wear and tear, and I'm wondering if it's worth it to replace it now or wait and see if they manufacture a new headset to go along with all of this fancy audio tech they're touting.

This fancy tech just needs a regular stereo headset
 

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
So I'll be honest I don't understand the audio aspect of this at all. So this is the most relevant question to me. Realistically, when I pick up a PS5 and start to use it on my TV and do NOT use headphones, what am I actually going to get then in terms of audio from this thing? I'm struggling to understand between something eventually and nothing.

I personally don't game on headphones outside of my PC.

At launch you will get nothing. Eventually (1 year, 2+ years? later) they HOPE to achieve a sophisticated "Virtual/Simulated" surround sound effect using only your TV speakers. Whether they are successful, and how different it will be from the simulated surround setting that is likely already in your TV's audio menu, is anyone's guess. I am unclear on whether the dedicated Audio CU or any new SDK features will benefit TV/Soundbar/AVR users in the meantime, we would need an actual game audio engineer to weight in.