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OP
OP

Deleted member 36622

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 21, 2017
6,639
Well, you were asked why you thought an upgrade system made something an RPG and you responded that you thought that because it gave the player decisions to make.

I stand by the assertion that if you expect people to agree with you, you need to explain that line of reasoning as it applies to your definition RPGs.

I was just trying to make example of what it could be referred as RPG in 2018, but for me that's not enough to qualify it as RPG.

For me i see games like Baldur's Gate as the ideal type of a Role-playing video game, then you could have some hybrid RPG that adds shades of other genres like Shin Megami Tensei added the monster raising aspect, or more tactical elements like in X-COM or Fire Emblem.

But at some point when other elements are more dominant it becomes the opposite: other genres with SOME RPG element.
 

Kamaros

Member
Aug 29, 2018
2,315
For me the basically aspect of a RPG is placing yourself in the protagonist boots(New Vegas and Souls) so you can make the past and path of your character. After this, comes the leveling and build stuff (Like Witcher and again, Souls)

I would say BoTW and GOW are light RPGs hahaha
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
I know the adventure genre is considered to be pretty much dead these days, but to conflate it with the RPG genre like this seems a bit harsh to me.

My favorite RPG is Bayonetta, btw.
 

Kamaros

Member
Aug 29, 2018
2,315
It says right in the name. Role playing. I think Detroit has far more going in the role playing aspect than some games people actually consider RPGs. Like JRPGs. Most of them have no role playing at all.

I think Role Playing consists with the table pen and paper games, like, you make your character and give him freedom to do the background and personality.

Detroit gives you a set of existing characters in a point of their lives and lets you make decisions, this is a very light RPG aspect.
 

Pixel Grotto

Member
Oct 27, 2017
894
I don't think they do. In fact I would wager that most people don't know what an RPG is, and go by the simplistic definition of "errr a game where you're playing a ROLE" - which is everything.

I have a simple standard for judging what is and isn't a video game RPG - it has to have substantial elements of tabletop RPGs in it, specifically forms of character progression, stat enhancement and an emphasis on plot advancement. Those are the tenants of games like D&D which inspired this whole genre, and that's what the first electronic RPGs were meant to emulate. It seems like a lot of people who run these award shows and websites have never touched a tabletop RPG in their life and have no idea of the genre's roots, so it makes sense that they would pick something like Detroit, which is an adventure game.

By this logic, is Monster Hunter World an RPG? Strictly speaking, no. It doesn't have traditional "leveling up" or character stats but I suppose you could make the argument that there is character progression in the form of weapons and armor (which do have elaborate stats) as well as an emphasis on plot (albeit a mediocre one) for at least the main campaign. It kind of sits on the borderline because its fantasy trappings are so similar to what we see in traditional tabletop games, but if we're going by strict definitions I'm more inclined to say that Monster Hunter World is its own genre - a "hunting" game, rather than an RPG.

By this logic, none of the Zelda games can really be considered RPGs either, except for Zelda II.
 

Iyagovos

Verified
Jan 18, 2018
198
I think it's pointless to argue this, but every game is a role playing game if we're being so loose with the definition. Character progression mechanics exist in just about every game today.

I agree that it's pointless, but a long-standing subset of RPGS has been the APRG, which Diablo is a part of, and I'd very much argue that MonHun is part of that group too.
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,058
Well, I for one look forward to next year's RPG awards and see which wins Best Sci Fi Shooter RPG and who wins Best Sports RPG.

Video Games is such a 2018 term.
 

Captain of Outer Space

Come Sale Away With Me
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,350
Looking at the Aussie Game Awards, there are only categories for these genres:

Shooter
Action/Adventure
RPG
Strategy
Sports/Racing/Fighting

So what category would it best fit? There's no Adventure game category, so it was forced into RPG. That's just how awards orgs tend to handle things unless they're going to go all out with every genre getting its own award even if there isn't much competition in them.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,405
If Bloodborne isn't then neither is DQXI
Souls is its own genre at this point. It's not, "this is an RPG," but "this is a Souls-like game"

Roguelike. Soulslike. Done.
Looking at the Aussie Game Awards, there are only categories for these genres:

Shooter
Action/Adventure
RPG
Strategy
Sports/Racing/Fighting

So what category would it best fit? There's no Adventure game category, so it was forced into RPG. That's just how awards orgs tend to handle things unless they're going to go all out with every genre getting its own award even if there isn't much competition in them.
They rework their ill-conceived awards categories, for a start.

They either want to recognise a genre of games, or not. And if it's not listed, they clearly don't.
 

AgeEighty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,413
Non-RPGs have adopted a lot of RPG gameplay elements (levels, gear et al), and RPGs have adopted a lot of non-RPG elements (action combat et al.).

It's almost impossible to clearly define what an RPG is anymore. It's some kind of nebulous amalgamation of elements: fantasy setting, leveling, Japanese development (if NieR Automata had been a western game would it still be classified as an RPG?), in-depth story, turn-based or command-input combat, quests, gear, but not necessarily all of those elements or any specific number of them.
 

Sou Da

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
If you know nothing about the genre, just do some research on its origins. I'm not here to spoonfeed you a thesis.
Testy, huh? I was really trying to get you to explain the roleplaying of DQ games tbh.

Anyways DQXI has less roleplaying than Bloodborne, it doesn't matter if one series is long-codified as an RPG or not.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,813
Brazil
Everyone have different points of view on what can be considered a RPG videogame or not, and nobody will ever reach a consensus. If you wanna be pure about the meaning of RPG, only the pen and paper ones are the real stuff and videogames can be at most RPG simulations. Meanwhile, if you wanna be flexible about it, then prepare to respect the opinion of people that consider Detroit a RPG.

It's silly to say that Detroit objectively isn't a RPG and something like FFX is.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,809
I think Role Playing consists with the table pen and paper games, like, you make your character and give him freedom to do the background and personality.

Detroit gives you a set of existing characters in a point of their lives and lets you make decisions, this is a very light RPG aspect.
That would mean The Witcher or Alpha Protocol aren't RPGs either, though. I do think RPGs need to have some sort of role playing, meaningful specially, as to not make every choice have the exact same outcome as that undermines the role playing. Which is something Detroit accomplishes fairly well, with all its numerous outcomes and variables.
 

Falconbox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,600
Buffalo, NY
My favorite RPG is Madden NFL.

I love upgrading my created character's stats. Because apparently that's all it takes to be an RPG nowadays.
 

Sou Da

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
Souls is its own genre at this point. It's not, "this is an RPG," but "this is a Souls-like game"

Roguelike. Soulslike. Done.

They rework their ill-conceived awards categories, for a start.

They either want to recognise a genre of games, or not. And if it's not listed, they clearly don't.

Nope, it's just one very specific type of RPG, just like DQ is.

People copying it's combat mechanics and 'style' of level design doesn't mean that the original series isn't an RPG.
 

Derrick01

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,289
If the question starts with "Does the game press know" the answer is almost always no. I don't think there's an industry out there with a worse and less knowledgeable press than ours.
 

Ailanthium

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,275
While I'm not sure whether or not I would consider Monster Hunter: World to be one, I think it's within the same overall genre even if it doesn't have strict experience systems. At the very least you could make a compelling argument for it. Detroit is clearly better suited to be an adventure game in the same vein as old point-and-clicks, and while you are quite literally "playing a role", it's not at all influenced by old tabletops, which are the basis for most RPGs.
 

Sou Da

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
My favorite RPG is Madden NFL.

I love upgrading my created character's stats. Because apparently that's all it takes to be an RPG nowadays.
It feels like every thread you're in you just kind of drive by with gamefaqs 2010 era take, but to actually address the post here, where are the created character stats in Detroit?
 

Deleted member 43872

Account closed at user request
Banned
May 24, 2018
817
I'm going to defer to the expert, Chester Bolingbroke, who has spent years blogging through every computer RPG ever made. He defined his criteria, and I believe he nailed it:

  1. There must be some form of character development, which might include increases in hit points, spell points, experience, levels, attributes, or skills. Basically, the character has to get intrinsically stronger and tougher as you play the game. Improvements in inventory do not count.
  2. Combat effectiveness (including accuracy and damage) must be dependent to some degree on character attributes. Again, these could include standard Dungeons & Dragons-style characteristics, like strength and dexterity, or a skill-based system as in Skyrim. Combat effectiveness based solely on inventory or player dexterity with a controller does not count.
  3. Characters in the game must have flexible inventories that are not based around solving puzzles. Characters should find some variety of weapons, armor, potions, and magic items during the game, and the player should be able to choose what the character wields and when he uses various items.
I haven't yet played MHW, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it only meets criterion #3. Detroit doesn't meet any. (If you say that an RPG is about making plot choices, your definition excludes freaking Wizardry and can therefore be immediately discarded.)
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,405
Nope, it's just one very specific type of RPG, just like DQ is.

People copying it's combat mechanics and 'style' of level design doesn't mean that the original series isn't an RPG.
This is like arguing that PUBG is an action game, or that DotA is an RTS.

New genres are borne from the old ones.
 

Sou Da

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
I'm going to defer to the expert, Chester Bolingbroke, who has spent years blogging through every computer RPG ever made. He defined his criteria, and I believe he nailed it:


I haven't yet played MHW, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it only meets criterion #3. Detroit doesn't meet any. (If you say that an RPG is about making plot choices, your definition excludes freaking Wizardry and can therefore be immediately discarded.)
This means doesn't count, which I'm sure a lot of people would agree is an RPG.

I will never understand the weird fascination with a hard locked definition for this genre online. It can just be loose, people.
 

Kamaros

Member
Aug 29, 2018
2,315
So like the Witcher then.

That would mean The Witcher or Alpha Protocol aren't RPGs either, though. I do think RPGs need to have some sort of role playing, meaningful specially, as to not make every choice have the exact same outcome as that undermines the role playing. Which is something Detroit accomplishes fairly well, with all its numerous outcomes and variables.

In my opinion, Witcher has the gameplay aspects to it: character progression, build and amor/weapons sets. You can choose ways to approach the situations (like rolling a dice on a smaller scale and variables). You just don't get to choose the character's past.

I would compare Detroid to rolling the dice too, but thats it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
I would say MHW has some RPG mechanics but it is primarily an action game. Detroit is not, it is a visual novel.

Funnily enough, I think Demon's Souls is a RPG more than an action game (opposite of Bloodborne).
 

Pixel Grotto

Member
Oct 27, 2017
894
That would mean The Witcher or Alpha Protocol aren't RPGs either, though. I do think RPGs need to have some sort of role playing, meaningful specially, as to not make every choice have the exact same outcome as that undermines the role playing. Which is something Detroit accomplishes fairly well, with all its numerous outcomes and variables.

The Witcher qualifies as an RPG - at least in the traditional sense which I outlined in my previous post - because even though you only control Geralt, you can upgrade his stats using attributes descended from traditional tabletop games. There's stuff like STR, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA in there and you can use those aspects to dramatically shift his character and skillset in ways similar to playing a fighter/wizard/rogue in D&D for instance.

Detroit, to the best of my knowledge, has none of these stats. You're mainly reacting to points in the story. So I'd say it qualifies as an adventure game, but not really an RPG one. Once again, I just go by the strict definition where a video game RPG just has to have substantial tabletop attributes to them, and the easiest way to determine if that exists or not is to see if there's character progression, stat enhancement and an emphasis on plot advancement. Detroit has some of those, but not all. Twenty years ago, Detroit would have been made as a point 'n click adventure game, like King's Quest or Gabriel Knight. There's a reason those games were strictly considered to be adventures, as opposed to RPGs - which at that time would have been a genre used to denote stuff like Betrayal at Krondor.

I don't know anything about Alpha Protocol, so can't comment there.
 

Kamaros

Member
Aug 29, 2018
2,315
The Witcher qualifies as an RPG - at least in the traditional sense which I outlined in my previous post - because even though you only control Geralt, you can upgrade his stats using attributes descended from traditional tabletop games. There's stuff like STR, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA in there and you can use those aspects to dramatically shift his character and skillset in ways similar to playing a fighter/wizard/rogue in D&D for instance.

Detroit, to the best of my knowledge, has none of these stats. You're mainly reacting to points in the story. So I'd say it qualifies as an adventure game, but not really an RPG one. Once again, I just go by the strict definition where a video game RPG just has to have substantial tabletop attributes to them, and the easiest way to determine if that exists or not is to see if there's character progression, stat enhancement and an emphasis on plot advancement. Detroit has some of those, but not all. Twenty years ago, Detroit would have been made as a point 'n click adventure game, like King's Quest or Gabriel Knight. There's a reason those games were strictly considered to be adventures, as opposed to RPGs - which at that time would have been a genre used to denote stuff like Betrayal at Krondor.

I don't know anything about Alpha Protocol, so can't comment there.

Exactly my point :)
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
I'm going to defer to the expert, Chester Bolingbroke, who has spent years blogging through every computer RPG ever made. He defined his criteria, and I believe he nailed it:


I haven't yet played MHW, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it only meets criterion #3. Detroit doesn't meet any. (If you say that an RPG is about making plot choices, your definition excludes freaking Wizardry and can therefore be immediately discarded.)
I like these criteria, personally. And yeah, it makes no sense to define what an RPG is by the presence or absence of dialogue choices.

Detroit would have been made as a point 'n click adventure game, like King's Quest or Gabriel Knight. There's a reason those games were strictly considered to be adventures, as opposed to RPGs - which at that time would have been a genre used to denote stuff like Betrayal at Krondor.
This. I don't understand why some people seem to have forgotten adventure games (just adventure, no action in front) are a thing.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
More proximity to DnD really, video games have always tried to twist that formula adding or removing things. Baldur's Gate, Pillars Of Eternity, Divinity Original Sin are some of the closest.
So the only things that can be role playing games are games that liken to DnD?

So wouldn't you consider STALKER a role playing game?
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 3925

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,725
Detroit is the very definition of an Adventure game. Not an RPG, lol.

Monster Hunter could be considered one though.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,809
In my opinion, Witcher has the gameplay aspects to it: character progression, build and amor/weapons sets. You can choose ways to approach the situations (like rolling a dice on a smaller scale and variables). You just don't get to choose the character's past.

I would compare Detroid to rolling the dice too, but thats it.
I don't disagree that The Witcher is an RPG, I was just pointing out that having a pre-made character isn't something that rules out the RPG quality of a game, you know?

The Witcher qualifies as an RPG - at least in the traditional sense which I outlined in my previous post - because even though you only control Geralt, you can upgrade his stats using attributes descended from traditional tabletop games. There's stuff like STR, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA in there and you can use those aspects to dramatically shift his character and skillset in ways similar to playing a fighter/wizard/rogue in D&D for instance.

Detroit, to the best of my knowledge, has none of these stats. You're mainly reacting to points in the story. So I'd say it qualifies as an adventure game, but not really an RPG one. Once again, I just go by the strict definition where a video game RPG just has to have substantial tabletop attributes to them, and the easiest way to determine if that exists or not is to see if there's character progression, stat enhancement and an emphasis on plot advancement. Detroit has some of those, but not all. Twenty years ago, Detroit would have been made as a point 'n click adventure game, like King's Quest or Gabriel Knight. There's a reason those games were strictly considered to be adventures, as opposed to RPGs - which at that time would have been a genre used to denote stuff like Betrayal at Krondor.

I don't know anything about Alpha Protocol, so can't comment there.
Personally, I wouldn't consider Detroit an RPG either. But I also don't think it's such an absurd category for it to fall into. I think both the character progression and role playing are paramount to the genre. Maybe we can consider something that has only one of them, then, RPG-lite but not exactly in the RPG genre? For instance, I'd say Assassin's Creed Origins is RPG-lite because it has character progression, but no role playing at all. I still see it as an adventure game. Whereas Odyssey is a full-fledged RPG, with both character progression and role-playing. Likewise, most JRPGs, to me, fall under the strategy game category for having character progression but not role playing, where strategy is required to progress, either in combat or managing characters.
 

Kamaros

Member
Aug 29, 2018
2,315
I don't disagree that The Witcher is an RPG, I was just pointing out that having a pre-made character isn't something that rules out the RPG quality of a game, you know?

Yeah, totally agree with you, thats why I think the gameplay elements are what defines the RPG, I just said that when a game combines both (New Vegas and Souls) it's the full concept of the table pen and paper <3
 

Pixel Grotto

Member
Oct 27, 2017
894
So the only things that can be role playing games are games that likes to DnD?

So wouldn't you consider STALKER a role playing game?

I think the issue here is simply one of titles - for many people, "RPG" denotes something specific. It reminds them of games like Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Baldur's Gate, etc. It's because these games contain the DNA of D&D, which inspired the entire computer RPG genre and basically gave birth to the elements that now make us think "RPG", whether subconsciously or not. So yeah, if we're going by strict definitions, a roleplaying game needs to have some of that D&D DNA in it. Obviously all genres of gaming are getting more and more nebulous these days as RPG elements start leaking into everything from Call of Duty to Horizon: Zero Dawn, but if we're still going to rely on differentiating things into action games vs adventure games vs RPG games vs puzzle games vs sports games, it helps to have some unmovable criteria.

I haven't played STALKER, but does it have substantial character stats? A reliance on those stats on combat that seem similar to how stats would influence dice rolls in a tabletop game? If so, it could be considered a full-fledged RPG. If not, it's just an FPS with a light sprinkling of RPG elements at most.