Does Persona 3 still have the best dungeon implementation of modern Personas?

[EntelechyFuff]

I'm chipping away at Persona 5, and I can't help but feel like Persona 3 nailed the dungeon diving in a way that the fixed dungeons of Persona 4 & 5 failed to do.

In the simplest terms: since Persona 3's Tartarus was a single, game-spanning dungeon of unknown height, it worked well with the calendar system of Persona 3. Since progress wasn't so explicitly clear, it was easy to enter and leave without hitting some specific diagetic milestone and still feel like you made progress.

In Persona 4 & 5, since the dungeons and palaces are discrete with clear beginnings and endings, the games--maybe unintentionally--encourage the player to do it in as few (often 1) visits as possible. And the dungeons and palaces don't really do anything to discourage this: Tartarus had it's unknown height (you'll run out of resources eventually) and the reaper (who will chase you out by force).

I was triggered to think about this because of Persona 5's Mementos, which is like a crappy version of Tartarus that I was initially quite excited for. I find myself wishing the series as a whole had built upon and and improved Tartarus rather than options for more traditional RPG dungeons in the future.

Anyone else miss Tartarus?

 

[PlanetSmasher]

I miss the original Persona games' dungeon structure. The calendar-based games just have yet to implement dungeon crawling in a way that doesn't piss me off somehow.

 

[BasilZero]

I found Tartarus really boring so no.

P4's dungeon structure was better but not that much better.

Havent played P5 yet so not sure about that.

I did more outside of Tartarus stuff on P3 lol.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

Not even close for me. I hated the earlier Persona designs and prefer the ones in 4-5.

 

[Plasma]

No I hate Tartarus, I much prefer the handcrafted dungeons that were in 5.

 

[Derkon]

Much preferred the handcrafted P5 dungeons.

 

[Annabel]

Persona 3 and Tartarus in particular made me feel like I was going insane so its definitely not for me.

Handcrafted dungeons are the way to go, even if P5's do stumble a lot the deeper you get into the game.

 

[Kalor]

Putting aside the actual dungeon design which was only good in Persona 5, I do like Tartarus for how the overall objective was more vague. I prefer the idea of gradually chipping away at dungeons rather than doing them as quickly as possible like 4/5 encourage. Or the fatigue system which encouraged spreading out runs rather than day after day until you reach the current end.

 

[DNAbro]

jesus fuck no

P3 is great but Tartarus is gets REALLY goddamn boring.

 

[Reyes]

Tartarus is awful

Every major floor is the same different color thats it

 

[shimon]

Not for me.

P5>P4>P3

 

[Sadnarav]

I feel that the dungeons are the worst part of Persona 3 and the lack of distinctive design, the shadows beings just blobs makes it all very same-y and annonymous in a way that I felt that exploring them was a shore

I don't have a lot of dungeon crawling experience, but even thou I think Persona 5 is the worst of the three, the more bespoke and traditional JPRG dungeon works a lot better and ties in thematically with what's happening in the story in a evolutionary way of the Persona 4 dungeons - that are bad as tradicional dungeons and bad as dungeon crawl

 

[Poltergust]

There were proper checkpoints in Tartarus, though. It was even possible to reach all of these within a single night each.

 

[Exist 2 Inspire]

What? It's by far the worst.

 

[Y2Kev]

Persona 5's dungeons have the best design, they're just a little bit too long. If they chopped them up a bit, I think then that would be perfect. Tartarus was super repetitive though you have an interesting point around it not being super obvious when you should start and stop...but it did have pretty clear floor checkpoints.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

To go into further detail, Persona 5's dungneons are fine design-wise, it's just the game's incredibly dumb structure that makes them not work.

 

[Yuntu]

I think Persona in general is p weak in dungeons, P5 maybe doesnt entirely suck there.

 

[Lumination]

I came in to say bland, randomly generated dungeons should never come back, but no I totally see your point.

There's less pressure to optimize for everything when it all kind of blends together.

But then I remember there being checkpoints? It's been a hot decade since I last played it.

 

[Deleted member 16876]

IMO yes.

Much prefer it to Persona 5 especially. Persona 5 was so long and it was really annoying to play the gimmicky dungeons. With Tartarus it had many floors sure but it could be done way faster and you could "tune out".

Not to mention, I really loved the music and the way it kept building. Getting to the top felt like you accomplished something you have been trying to do for the whole game.

 

[Foot]

I definitely still felt pressure to get it all done in one go so that I could maximize my time with the social links. What this means for me is that they should get rid of the time limit, because I don't appreciate it.

 

[Astral]

Tartarus had checkpoints that you were pretty much encouraged to reach before the next story beat. So in a way it was the same as P4 and P5 dungeons except boring dungeon design. So no it doesn't have the best dungeon implementation and never did.

 

[Atom]

P2's dungeons ftw.

Of the options I think I probably prefer 5's dungeons but get what you liked about tartarus and they definitely sort of missed the mark a bit with mementos. On the whole p3 I always felt was the least formulaic of modern persona games. The playable characters were varied, some would be present long before they were playable, and some were weird. And they weren't all technically students. This I felt kinda lined up with tartarus but I do think there were some checkpoints and shit along the way still. It's been a while.

 

[Deleted member 1102]

Christ no, Tartarus ruins P3

 

[Yoshimitsu126]

Never played the other persona game but I like the movement and stealth in 5 if you're confident to not grind before the bosses. But boy are some of the puzzles a pain in the ass in the later dungeons.

 

[EntelechyFuff]

IMO yes.

Much prefer it to Persona 5 especially. Persona 5 was so long and it was really annoying to play the gimmicky dungeons. With Tartarus it had many floors sure but it could be done way faster and you could "tune out".

Not to mention, I really loved the music and the way it kept building. Getting to the top felt like you accomplished something you have been trying to do for the whole game.

Click to shrink...

Great point about the music and the sense of building to a major accomplishment also.

I am surprised at the intensity of some of the replies: Persona 3 is a pretty beloved game that kicked off a renaissance for SMT as a whole, but you wouldn't be able to tell it form the posters in here talking about Tartarus like it was the worst thing ever inflicted upon gaming.

 

[BassForever]

Conceptually? Sure I like the idea of climbing a massive tower and making as much progress as you can each time you go there. In practice, Tartarus becomes incredibly repetitive and narratively the game doesn't give you much reason to climb other then to get stronger for the next end of month boss.

 

[Dot-N-Run]

In Tartarus you just made a beeline to the next checkpoint and fought the minibosses when you still had full hp and sp. Then you could just wander around grinding until you were tired.

 

[chrominance]

Tartarus feels like a rough prototype for the dungeons in P4 and P5 to me, so no, I wouldn't agree with this personally. I can see why people would like the stripped-down stuff better but to me it's too minimal.

 

[Zafir]

Nah, mementos was kinda meh but the monthly dungeons in persona 5 were miles better than tartarus or 4.

Tartarus was just completely dull with each section just being slightly different coloured. It definitely didn't feel like you could really come and go at your own pace either really, with the way the bosses were balanced it definitely seemed like it intended you to get to the current "top floor" each month. Plus you did still need to get to the top of it to get the final boss, so if you skipped it at some point it means you had to rush through more in the final months. Persona 4 made is slightly better in that at least each month had a different design, sadly it was still super basic corridors that wore out their welcome.

I'd say one gameplay thing that Persona 3 did get right was the full moon events, they mostly all felt quite unique and interesting. Some of which did offer "mini-dungeons". It at least added some variety to the formula.

Now if we were talking characters/story, I'd definitely put 3 top but that's another discussion I suppose.

 

[ciddative]

I didn't love Persona 5 but I did like the implicit challenge of trying to basically complete a dungeon in a single day. Some of them were dam tricky to do this (the vault immediately springs to mind, I was running on zero sp and fumes by the end of that)

 

[Tribes of Trusty]

I loved P3 and I agree with your points. But I disagree with the general sentiment that P3 Tartarus is better.

Sure, the unknown laid before you + the fatigue mechanic + the Reaper made for exploration to be exciting, and P4 failed a bit in the sense knowing exactly the schedule made people want to rush the dungeons.

But P5 is best of both worlds ; you have unique and well designed dungeons, a pseudo Tartarus, and even if you know the deadline, dungeons can't be completed in one go since progression is locked behind certain story events.

 

[Kinthey]

The concept of climbing higher and higher is great, as you laid out, but they'd really have to find a way to make the sections more memorable. The way each dungeon reflected the personality of the target in Person 4 and 5 was always one of the highlights

 

[Moara]

The randomly generated palette swaps were bad, so no. Even though P5 dungeons wore out their welcome by the end (like the game in general), they are still preferable to that.

 

[SEATLiens]

Tartarus is by far the worst, its the main reason why P3 needs a remake

 

[Crayolan]

Tartarus you're not as incentivized to clear each section as fast as possible to the same degree as in P4 or 5, but I feel like most people end up doing it anyway after the first 2 or 3 in-game months when the tiredness mechanic stops being a real issue.

I'd take varied dungeons with actual level design over randomized floors any day though. Mementos sucks yes but that has no impact on P5's palaces.

 

[EntelechyFuff]

I didn't love Persona 5 but I did like the implicit challenge of trying to basically complete a dungeon in a single day. Some of them were dam tricky to do this (the vault immediately springs to mind, I was running on zero sp and fumes by the end of that)

Click to shrink...

I can agree with this! It is fun to see how far you can push it in Persona 5...BUT this creates really icky friction with the calendar system.

There's just this vast desert between the earliest date you can complete a palace and the revelation of a new one. I love social links as much as the next guy, but just grinding those for 30 days straight with occasional brief tours of Mementos is not great.

 

[Metroidvania]

P3's mixing of the fatigue system and an incentive on clearing the dungeon over multiple trips definitely has its merits, for sure - P4, and especially P5, shifted the 'intent' of clearing a dungeon (or as much as possible) in a single day into overdrive, given how many other things are pulling at your time.

There's also a much greater sense of 'urgency' in preventing a murder of 'needing' to change someone's heart - even if that sense is not 'actually' a thing, it makes the player want to do it as fast as possible. Meanwhile, Tartarus as a general concept allows for more nuance.

But actual dungeon content wise? Tartarus's randomly designed dungeons are terrible, lol.

P4 is a great step up with 'personalization' of the randomness, and P5's unique dungeons, albeit often too long, are much more personalized and have a visceral 'connection' to the target, even if that connection is somewhat hokey at times.

P6 hopefully can blend (both narratively and gameplay-wise) a better incentive for clearing the dungeon over periods of time, compared to blazing through it and sitting in a 'holding pattern' for 2-3 weeks while the game just ignores the sword of damocles over your head, and your social links are always designed to basically ignore whatever the main plot development is.

Because P5 absolutely incentivizes blazing through, but narratively it creates a story 'drag' section each time, and also gameplay-wise just going through school and social links is pretty monotonous after the 4th/5th dungeon and the 2 weeks following in which you don't do a whole lot.

 

[BassForever]

Honestly thinking about it more I think all 3 modern Persona game miss the mark in one way or another.

As I said above I love P3's dungeon set up conceptually, but it's too repetitive/boring with not enough narrative incentive to want to climb it.

Persona 4 had the right idea of having individual dungeons themed around each months boss/character you were going to recruit. Of course this still suffered from mostly being procedurally generated content that gets repetitive. The only positive of P3 and P4's dungeon designs (along with P5's Mementos) is that they're fairly quick to get through if you just ignore enemies and beeline for the stairs.

Persona 5 improves upon P4's idea of having themed dungeons based upon the end of the month boss that are actually designed. My issue with P5's dungeons is that there too freaking long and often overstay their welcome despite being hand crafted. IIRC Every P5 dungeon has this mid point where it yeets you out, and I often felt that point was more then long enough to be a one full dungeon experience. I don't even think the puzzles are that bad, I think they just draw people's ire when they're already tired from an overly long dungeon that then slaps them with a puzzle at the 11th hour.

 

[robot]

Tartarus had some good ideas that haven't been successfully carried forward yet, but I do think the more recent changes to Persona dungeons are for the better. You also I think correctly point out that Mementos is just a poorer version of Tartarus.

The deliberately unclear limits of Tartarus make it easier for the player to go at their own pace, unpressured. The ending forcing you to climb the tower anyway kinda subverts that though. If you've been slacking up to the end the process is extremely dull. There were just too many floors that were too similar. The evolving visual and musical themes of the floors was cool, but since everything is randomly generated they are limited in what they can show.

Persona 3 had the boldest pacing design of any modern persona game, because they had both plot-mandated dungeons and then this weird unrelated tower you could do whenever. You didn't HAVE to go to Tartarus before the end, but you ended up wanting to go to keep your team leveled up. I don't envy the game designers, because they obviously wanted to give people choices, but they also didn't want people totally ignoring the combat/RPG elements of the game, since they are meant to synergize with the life sim aspects. P4 and P5's plot-mandated dungeons seem like a clear response to the sloppiness of P3 in this regard. P4 took it too far the other way and gave you too little to do between plot dungeons, while P5 tried to do P3's trick with better balance but just ended up making Mementos a more-boring version of Tartarus, and then they still make you trudge through it all for the ending.

For a hypothetical P6, I think the best approach would be to re-implement Tartarus but make it truly plot-optional. You can have plenty of gameplay rewards and lore tidbits for doing it, but don't lock an ending behind getting to the top. Also scale the fights there to match your character levels, or give people a way to skip floors they are overleveled for. Alternatively, for a really crazy idea, make the combat in the game completely optional and branch the storyline based on how much people want to engage with it. That's way too bold for the Persona team to try though.

 

[StereoVSN]

I liked P4 design the best put of three games despite its issues.

- P3 was just too samey and boring.
- P5 was beat in theory... but the dungeons just stretched way too long including periods without being able to properly save. Not to mention stupid Mementos.

P4 could have used some hand customization and a bit better variety but I would take it over P5 due to latter's length, especially in latter dungeons. If P5 could have cut them down a but, would have taken that.

 

[Bulerias]

This is somewhat tangential, but as someone who has only played Persona 5 (about 50 hours in, just finished the fourth dungeon), I'm surprised by the vitriol regarding the dungeons, their structure and puzzles, etc. I'm having a blast and since getting the hint of the game wanting me to get through an entire dungeon in one day, I haven't had any issues with managing SP. Unless the game takes a nosedive in quality after this, I don't really get the complaints. The dungeons have all been interesting and engaging with unique mechanics and scenarios.

 

[EntelechyFuff]

For a hypothetical P6, I think the best approach would be to re-implement Tartarus but make it truly plot-optional. You can have plenty of gameplay rewards and lore tidbits for doing it, but don't lock an ending behind getting to the top. Also scale the fights there to match your character levels, or give people a way to skip floors they are overleveled for. Alternatively, for a really crazy idea, make the combat in the game completely optional and branch the storyline based on how much people want to engage with it. That's way too bold for the Persona team to try though.

Click to shrink...

Oh my god this might be my biggest grip about mementos. The enemies for the currently unlocked floors are somehow usually less threatening than what you're dealing with in the currently unlocked Palace.

 

[EntelechyFuff]

This is somewhat tangential, but as someone who has only played Persona 5 (about 50 hours in, just finished the fourth dungeon), I'm surprised by the vitriol regarding the dungeons, their structure and puzzles, etc. I'm having a blast and since getting the hint of the game wanting me to get through an entire dungeon in one day, I haven't had any issues with managing SP. Unless the game takes a nosedive in quality after this, I don't really get the complaints. The dungeons have all been interesting and engaging with unique mechanics and scenarios.

Click to shrink...

My complaint is less the dungeon quality itself, and more how it feels bad to quickly complete the palace and then engage in weeks of "social" gameplay with nothing to break its up. Persona 3 (IMO, clearly opinions differ) was the game that wove the dungeon diving and real world interactions together the best.

 

[Transistor]

Tartarus is absolutely terrible, what the hell lol

 

[Curufinwe]

This is somewhat tangential, but as someone who has only played Persona 5 (about 50 hours in, just finished the fourth dungeon), I'm surprised by the vitriol regarding the dungeons, their structure and puzzles, etc. I'm having a blast and since getting the hint of the game wanting me to get through an entire dungeon in one day, I haven't had any issues with managing SP. Unless the game takes a nosedive in quality after this, I don't really get the complaints. The dungeons have all been interesting and engaging with unique mechanics and scenarios.

Click to shrink...

Managing SP is a breeze in P5 compared to P3 and P4 vanilla.

 

[Dice]

People like Tartarus? I mean, I like it so I can shut my brain off, but not much more? 😅
P5 dungeons I felt like a sorta unique RPG-Zelda hybrid and I loved it.

 

[Exist 2 Inspire]

My complaint is less the dungeon quality itself, and more how it feels bad to quickly complete the palace and then engage in weeks of "social" gameplay with nothing to break its up. Persona 3 (IMO, clearly opinions differ) was the game that wove the dungeon diving and real world interactions together the best.

Click to shrink...

I don't get this at all. I play P3 exactly like i play the other two. Play and grind until the checkpoint in one go and then social gameplay until the next boss fight.

 

[thekonamicode]

Persona 3, which I adore, has my LEAST favorite dungeon design. P5 is my favorite so far.

 

[TooBusyLookinGud]

Tartarus is absolutely terrible, what the hell lol

Click to shrink...

Agreed, I absolutely hated it. I like 5 the most, but I'm really enjoying Strikers design too.

 

[Metroidvania]

Oh my god this might be my biggest grip about mementos. The enemies for the currently unlocked floors are somehow usually less threatening than what you're dealing with in the currently unlocked Palace.

Click to shrink...

One of the social links (IIRC Ryuuji rank 5 or 6?), will eventually let you 'auto-win' momentos mob fights that are significantly weaker than you by holding X when running into them.

It's a game-changer, and is super easy for grinding, lol.