Let alone there were a shit tone of parts in ME3 that were inconsistent with the lore. Like that one mission where you have to pick up reaper tech even though reaper tech is known to indoctrinate people.
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Does Mass Effect have the best lore integration in a game?
- Thread starter BossAttack
- Start date
Let alone there were a shit tone of parts in ME3 that were inconsistent with the lore. Like that one mission where you have to pick up reaper tech even though reaper tech is known to indoctrinate people.
The idea of a convenient repository of information (that you can access at any time from a device you can store in your pocket) sounds equally similar to real life to me. It just depends on the setting as to whether it lends it's to good lore integration.
Haha. I'll see if they do a Remake. I have a hard time replaying BioWare games, because I had a story, I don't want to change it! Haha.
you don't need to ever open the codex to get into the lore of mass effect
tbh I like the Elder Scrolls method more. While yes I do dislike having to read tons of books for more exposition, I feel exactly how I would in real life. I find a book and I'm like "shit fuck reading it now, taking it with me for later". I put it in my book shelf and move on. Then one day read it when I get a chance. Mass Effect's codex was so machine-like and cold in its general presentation it didn't encourage me to read more. I get everything I needed to play the game and never really deep dove into it because it never seemed particularly welcoming.
I love Mass Effect but most of the lore to me feels "recent", as in the histories and events that shaped the various current societies and events don't seem to go all that far back. Also the choice to put Javik in a DLC was a pretty shady move.
For me probably the most integrated games when it comes to lore is Elder Scrolls and probably the best example is Morrowind. In every Elder Scrolls game if you choose to you can dive in to the lore and start piecing everything together. Very rarely do things happen in a vacuum. There are reams of lore to dig through which not only tell you about the world but give you better understanding of the events your characters find themselves in.
Destiny 1 also had pretty compelling lore but it never felt all too well integrated into the game.
For me probably the most integrated games when it comes to lore is Elder Scrolls and probably the best example is Morrowind. In every Elder Scrolls game if you choose to you can dive in to the lore and start piecing everything together. Very rarely do things happen in a vacuum. There are reams of lore to dig through which not only tell you about the world but give you better understanding of the events your characters find themselves in.
Destiny 1 also had pretty compelling lore but it never felt all too well integrated into the game.
Mass Effect's world building is so good that despite ME3's ending, I think the fanbase would just forgive EA if they just picked a lane with that ending (or undid it and went another way) and continued to tell stories in that universe - just so we could get more stories in that universe.
FFXII is still king for this one personally.
The lore in that game is not only extremely extensive, but it also serves as a bridge of sorts between the two other ivalice games that preceded it.
You can get lost in some pretty deep wormholes connecting the ivalice dots for that game- and much of it is "earned" by heading out on hunts and filling the bestiary.
The lore in that game is not only extremely extensive, but it also serves as a bridge of sorts between the two other ivalice games that preceded it.
You can get lost in some pretty deep wormholes connecting the ivalice dots for that game- and much of it is "earned" by heading out on hunts and filling the bestiary.
Lore distribution in Elder Scrolls feels like the devs have more confidence in the audience. It's setup to let the player engage with it on their own schedule (like the user above said, you can read it right then or put the book in your pack for later). It's also scattered throughout the game so finding a story feels like an Easter-egg hunt, like you've discovered a little treasure. It also feels thematically authentic & natural to the world. You're not "exiting the game" to learn more about it, it's all right there in the world itself.
I also love how dense the world fiction is. How you can play any of the ES games and you'll catch references to locations, cultures, races, etc. for games that weren't even released yet (i.e. there's books about Skyrim people & places in Morrowind). It's crazy how it all folds back in on itself and the world remains consistent across all the titles.
ME lore codex kicks ass too.
I also love how dense the world fiction is. How you can play any of the ES games and you'll catch references to locations, cultures, races, etc. for games that weren't even released yet (i.e. there's books about Skyrim people & places in Morrowind). It's crazy how it all folds back in on itself and the world remains consistent across all the titles.
ME lore codex kicks ass too.
Also, I feel like I should mention Control here.
It has the best world building I've seen in a game. To put it short, Control doesn't build its lore simply by using documents, but by how the player connects them. They are often talking to each other... and the world around them. Not to mention the characters and their dialogues.
Mass Effect is still my number 1 in terms of the finished product, but it could learn from Control's subtlety and elegance.
It has the best world building I've seen in a game. To put it short, Control doesn't build its lore simply by using documents, but by how the player connects them. They are often talking to each other... and the world around them. Not to mention the characters and their dialogues.
Mass Effect is still my number 1 in terms of the finished product, but it could learn from Control's subtlety and elegance.
Dark Souls does it better, the lore is part of the experience and the journey instead of being there just to add the world.
However Mass Effect's implementation is still top-tier
However Mass Effect's implementation is still top-tier
I've been meaning to write a thread on this, but yeah. Pillars 1 expects too much out the player. It's overwhelming, and I'd argue it's not a great introduction.
Pillars 2? An immediate improvement in every way. It quickly changed my perspective of the universe from "just another Fantasy game" to one of my favourite universes/settings in games. It is such a big improvement over the first.
For me, Pillars 2 is the closest a game has got to scratching the same itch Mass Effect 1 gave.
One of the reasons why im so excited about a new Dragon Age, the lore is about to get some crazy reveals.
Its Destiny.
Every single aspect of gameplay in the game is explained in the lore. Respawn mechanics, abilities, even the player behaviour is taken into account in developing who Guardians are. Like, seriously, everything in the game is contemplated in the lore.
Every single aspect of gameplay in the game is explained in the lore. Respawn mechanics, abilities, even the player behaviour is taken into account in developing who Guardians are. Like, seriously, everything in the game is contemplated in the lore.
OP
OP
How is Destiny's lore well integrated? Its the complete opposite.
Nah, Tyranny and other RPGs with tool-tip lore pop-ups are the apex of lore integration. It lets them make much denser worlds without getting lost in the weeds explaining everything all the time.
It's truly ingenious stuff that I'm surprised hadn't happened decades ago.
It's truly ingenious stuff that I'm surprised hadn't happened decades ago.
Having finished it recently, I think The Outer Worlds is a textbook example of how to do it even better than ME. The lore is more simple, yeah, but there is absolutely no need to read anything that doesn't come from gameplay.
ME is great with it because the Codex fits so well into the universe and setting. It feels seamless to the experience and just makes sense in use. Plus the lore is really good, so you want to learn as much as you can.
As others have mentioned though I think DA went on to utilize its lore much more effectively in the long run. Tyranny's tooltip system is really fantastic too and was put to great use in Pillars 2 Deadfire and is the gold standard for these types of games though. Really makes it easy to include unique words, concepts and stuff into the game's dialogue and descriptions.
As others have mentioned though I think DA went on to utilize its lore much more effectively in the long run. Tyranny's tooltip system is really fantastic too and was put to great use in Pillars 2 Deadfire and is the gold standard for these types of games though. Really makes it easy to include unique words, concepts and stuff into the game's dialogue and descriptions.
My favorite way to deliver lore was this mural in Sonic & Knuckles, very powerful in a game that was already amazing for telling such an epic story without a single word.
Mass Effect's worldbuilding is incredible, even if it is kind of exposition heavy upon replay (Liara and Tali basically give you social studies courses as an icebreaker). I think Dead Space and Bioshock also do pretty good at weaving their lore into audio logs that feel more like short stories that wrap into the narrative rather than just info dumps to help make sense of things.
I think my favorite part about the Grimoire and some of the Lorebooks is that they delve into stories from different perspectives and different points of history
I never enjoyed sitting down and reading lore as much I did in Mass Effect, so I'd say its up there, yeah
I second this. Scanning things in the environment is a more natural part of the gameplay than accessing a codex.
There's a whole lot of lore in random conversations, planet descriptions, weapons, etc. Just standing around on the Citadel and listening to people talk is often very interesting. Even stuff like in-universe ads can tell you a lot.
I remember that I was amazed by ME1 fascinating sci fi universe.
These games truly deserve a remake in the next decades
These games truly deserve a remake in the next decades
But it's not like they put that in there to simulate the future internet, it's just a convenient way of feeding information to the player. Meanwhile one of the conceits of the Elder Scrolls series is that none of the objects you find in the world are there simply there for decoration, but actually exist as physically based models that can be picked up, examined, sold etc. And this naturally applies to any book as well.
It's not that I'm bagging on Mass Effect or anything, but the Elder Scrolls series is undeniably far more ambitious than any other game in this particular regard.
I would argue that Horizon: Zero Dawn's implementation is probably the pinnacle to be matched. Superb world-building in a way that is contextualised in the game, taking advantage of the medium's unique selling point where it comes to narrative: environmental storytelling. The amount of old ruins I glacially combed through to pick up every little detail.
However, BioWare as a whole was excellent at this as well, and certainly ahead of their time. I don't doubt that they have inspired many developers to use similar techniques.
However, BioWare as a whole was excellent at this as well, and certainly ahead of their time. I don't doubt that they have inspired many developers to use similar techniques.
Absolutely. The fact that characters can have long conversations on the genophage and its moral complexities and you can not only follow along, but have strong thoughts on who to side with in those debates tells you everything you need to know about how effectively and convincingly Mass Effect sells its lore- and that's just one of many, many examples.
That's a completely optional additive that is by no means necessary to enjoy and understand the lore, or how excellently it's integrated in the story.
Dark Souls and Dragon Age both do this really well. The lore is very much within the story.
In Dark Souls a great example is Artorias. If you pay attention to the lore, it makes the DLC even better, but it's interesting on its own just with what is in the base game with Sif. Dark Souls also does an incredible job of integrating the gameplay mechanics themselves into the story in such an elegant way. It's not just like "oh here is a mechanic and uhhh story stuff here is an explanation." It's elegantly woven into the rest of the story.
Dragon Age you the lore is like, lore within the world, which I like. Like the Thaigs and how the dwarves talk about their ancestors. You get to go see those be reality within the world.
I love how in Dragon Age they just have gobs of scripture, but I really doubt there is a full bible they have to refer to, so it's sometimes funny because you're like "I was sure I heard them reference that chapter before." If was a writer on Bioware's writing team I'd be terrified of stepping over a previously referenced passage or getting close to one but saying something utterly unrelated.
In Dark Souls a great example is Artorias. If you pay attention to the lore, it makes the DLC even better, but it's interesting on its own just with what is in the base game with Sif. Dark Souls also does an incredible job of integrating the gameplay mechanics themselves into the story in such an elegant way. It's not just like "oh here is a mechanic and uhhh story stuff here is an explanation." It's elegantly woven into the rest of the story.
Dragon Age you the lore is like, lore within the world, which I like. Like the Thaigs and how the dwarves talk about their ancestors. You get to go see those be reality within the world.
I love how in Dragon Age they just have gobs of scripture, but I really doubt there is a full bible they have to refer to, so it's sometimes funny because you're like "I was sure I heard them reference that chapter before." If was a writer on Bioware's writing team I'd be terrified of stepping over a previously referenced passage or getting close to one but saying something utterly unrelated.
Dragon Age makes constant and exceptional use of unreliable narrator, to a degree I'm not sure is rivaled much in the gaming medium.
So many historical events in DA are told from multiple conflicting points of view, leaving it up to the player to piece together, only in some cases to be totally upended later in ways that manage to be completely congruent and sensible with the previous (incorrect) versions of events. The lore is just thickly layered, and in a way that maintains both relevancy to the ongoing narrative, as well as accessibility for the player. Someone said that DA's primary narrative as a series is the unraveling of the lore, and that's exactly right.
I personally liked the lore in GOW ps4 . I also thought its form of integration were really cool with Mimir feeding you lore while hanging from your belt to the murals that I still see you tubers attempting to decipher.
The most recent video I saw went into comparing two murals to form a theory that modi was still alive and would turn against the aesir gods. It was one of the more convincing mural theories I have come across.
The most recent video I saw went into comparing two murals to form a theory that modi was still alive and would turn against the aesir gods. It was one of the more convincing mural theories I have come across.
I'm playing through the first Mass Effect right now and it's pretty impressive how dedicated the game is to building its world. I also like how the developers took ideas from classic science fiction and incorporated them in interesting ways. When Joker told his story, it was so familiar that my immediate thought was "you should get your bones taken and get artificial ones put in; it worked out for Miles". Honestly more games should do this rather than get all their inspiration from action films.
I think it's done on purpose. The codex shares some similarities to the Galactic Library from the Uplift series, and Uplift is one of the biggest influences for Mass Effect.
Yes! Yes! That's what I love about DA. It's wonderful to see how much the lore permeates the culture and language. It's really intelligently done.
I actually wish Dark Souls did a tiny bit more of this, although it does do it as well. Artorias is again a good example. There are some small conflicting things, and when people asked Miyazaki why the change he was like, well it isn't exactly a change. The legend of Artorias warped over time.
I think it hits most of its big moments (especially early on) real well so that you're immediately engaged.
The tie-in novels were written as part of the Mass Effect project, but that's not where the ideas originated. That said, the lore of Mass Effect is influenced by a ton of science fiction novels and you can see all sorts of connections. David Brin's Uplift series plays along very similar lines, with humanity recently joining Galactic Civilization and being viewed skeptically by the members of Galactic Society. But there are all sorts of other works like Humanx Commonwealth and Heechee Saga and other stuff mixed in as well.
Best lore and best lore integration are two different things, and there seems to be a fair bit of people talking past each other on that front. As to the question in the title, obviously there's also a subjective aspect to what best lore integration means, as to some that may mean ~environmental storytelling~ (in particular, 0451s fall in this bucket) or From's style of "item descriptions as lore" approach to worldbuilding, because it's lore delivered as a result of player-initiated gameplay. But ME1 and DA:O (i.e., Bioware at a particular stage) both do a very good job of worldbuilding via the main narrative and pure character dialogue (as opposed to other avenues, since reading the codex is completely optional), which in my mind is better "integrated" in that it is worldbuilding that happens without the player going out of their way to find it. YMMV, I guess.