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What does the Red Hood work better as?

  • Anti-Hero

    Votes: 81 66.9%
  • Villain

    Votes: 40 33.1%

  • Total voters
    121

PhoenixAKG

Member
Aug 14, 2019
7,812
So Jason Todd was the second Robin before he was murdered by the Joker. He has since then came back to life and taken on the identity of the Red Hood. As the Red Hood he toys the line between anti-hero and villain frequently. So which one do you think he works better as?
 

Deleted member 1102

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,295
I prefer Under the Hood over Jason's other arcs so I guess villain? I also like his interactions with the Bat-Family so I'd probably pick both if that was an option.
 

Alpheus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,655
Anti-Hero but the reliance on guns does make him seem like a bad fit for the Bat Family, it pushes his anti-hero-ness even more so it's in character i suppose but Bats by extension is so out of character for allowing him to run around like that given Bruce has had rather consistent characterizations where he is so strongly anti-gun that in one depiction he tells Luthor to go kick rocks and torpedoes a multi-billion dollar military contract because the tech in question might be outfitted with guns. Regardless of that "bad fit" vibe he does seem to have good interactions with the rest of the Bat family so maybe that ideological friction is the price of admission.

I'm sure the comics have addressed the issue in some fashion since Jason Todd has returned from the dead though. I'm just unaware of how they decided to thread that needle, I'd guess rubber bullets? Though I figured since its comic book shenanigans I'm surprised he doesn't have concussive blast laser guns or something.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,463
I like him better as the anti-hero, but I'm weirdly protective of the bat family.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,110
He worked better as a corpse, lesson for batman to remember
 

RedVejigante

Member
Aug 18, 2018
5,641
I'm one of the weirdos who actually prefers his Morrison depiction as social-media Punisher tragic bad-guy, but that may have to do with the fact that I sort of resent Jason's return at all, even after all these years.
 

Kabuki Waq

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,825
I thought he was more of a good guy in under the red hood than bat man. So yes Anti hero.

He had a point!
 

Shemhazai

Member
Aug 13, 2020
6,488
He works best as someone who thinks he's an anti-hero but he's actually just a regular hero trying too hard to hide that he's just a decent guy with Bat-Daddy issues.
But maybe that's just because I really liked Red Hood & The Outlaws despite it's many glaring flaws.
 
Dec 30, 2020
15,278
I still think of his line, "I forgive you for not saving me, but WHY IS THE JOKER STILL ALIVE?!" as a great anti-hero, "WHAT THE HELL HERO?!" kinda thing.
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,256
Jason was at his best during his introduction. Where he was allowed to actually match Bruce. Batman + Punisher + Mob Boss is a cool concept for a character.

That said, Jason is great as the black sheep of the family. He has a genuinely unique dynamic with the rest of the Batfamily and I don't need that changed.

I'm one of the weirdos who actually prefers his Morrison depiction as social-media Punisher tragic bad-guy, but that may have to do with the fact that I sort of resent Jason's return at all, even after all these years.

I love Morrison, but Jason was done dirty under him.
 

Tornak

Member
Feb 7, 2018
8,393
Despite his best role being that of a villain/antagonist (UtRH) and his comics being mostly mediocre, I prefer him as an antihero.

But DC doesn't know what the fuck to do with him in that role. Jason constantly at odds with Bruce is exhausting, especially when it's all based around the same old dichotomy. Then there's the whole "no guns" policy introduced with merchandise reasons. I liked the arc where he gives them up and why, but it's still not a direction I like for the character, who has a small niche (street level with lethal force) that, while far from unique, is interesting enough on its own. He hasn't even adopted a "no kill" rule iirc, which makes this clearly PR-based decision even more PR-based.

Now he feels aimless and without anything particularly unique about him, essentially a Nightwing-lite, which is fine, but hardly what I want for the character. There's plenty great in UtRH and his comics (as bad as most of them are) in terms of the characterization that goes beyond him being the edgy Robin.

What they should do is have him fuck off and abandon the Batfamily/Gotham (bring him back occasionally, I guess) to become a globe-trotting antihero who dismantles criminal organisations or whatever. Or even tap in into the mythical aspect of the character, as bland as I mostly found the All-Caste stuff.
 

boontobias

Avenger
Apr 14, 2018
9,539
His existence is a compelling story, but his continued existence is not. The Outsiders story was cool, just chilling with the Batfamily is not. But I have problems with the Batfamily in general.
 

RedVejigante

Member
Aug 18, 2018
5,641
I love Morrison, but Jason was done dirty under him.
Like I said, I totally acknowledge that I'm absolutely an outlier with that opinion, but I just preffered how unapolegetically weird it was, both visually and conceptually, as well as how desperatly broken it depicted Jason as being.

But, again, I'm also of the opinion that Jason should have never come back at all, so attempts to make him into the cool-anti-hero-with-a-tude-Raphael of the Bat-family have never worked for me.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
The short answer is that Jason Todd should still be dead, the long answer is that he works best as a villain except being a villain is maybe the single worst choice you can take with the character.

Jason Todd died and then Batman let his murderer go free, and there's no degree of "Batman is as crazy as his villains" to justify letting the guy who beat your son to death with a crowbar get away with that. This is already bad enough, but now Jason Todd is alive again and asking the extremely sensible question "why the fuck did you let him live when he killed me?????"

So now you've got a character who, in his entirety, exemplifies the absolute nonsense of the Batman mythos, This is a riveting take if you're 35, extremely boring, and need your children's pulp fantasy characters to apologize for their own premises and fortunately DC writers these days have managed to overcome these horrible deficiencies in a time and place where Jason Todd has comfortably settled into a roguish heel of the Batfamily, and it's his absolute best placement.

First and foremost, it's as simple as this: If Batman's son, who he failed completely and utterly, was running around being an evil jerkface, every Batman story devoted to him not doing every single thing in his power to reform him and bring him back into the fold is officially less important than what he should be doing instead. Jason had a hard life, died, and then he found out no one gave a shit; there's absolutely no way to portray him as anything but an entirely sympathetic victim of circumstance and, as such, he needs to be one of the good guys, because if he isn't, then the good guys are failures for letting him down.

Moreover, a villainous Jason Todd who shoots bad guys with guns and is mad that his dad let him get murdered with no consequence to his murderer sure sounds fun, but it has a huge problem: this franchise is called Batman, and it's centered around Batman's ideals (that writers keep failing by showing those ideals as weak, stupid, and ineffectual, but that is what happens when you listen to middle-aged people who want their cartoons to grow up with them), and so there is no way for Jason Todd to meaningfully confront Batman's ideals where he will in any way succeed, because every single thing an evil Jason Todd wants to do is in direct opposition to shit the Batman mythos has hammered in for decades. Even if you want Jason Todd to exist as your vector to go "why doesn't Batman kill the bad guys like a cool adult" he will never ever ever ever ever succeed at this, so now he's here to literalize your dumb stupid fanboy arguments that suck every single ounce of joy I have ever felt reading about these characters.

Jason Todd right now is a good guy without question. He's roguish, he's edgy, he'll stomp off and go do what he wants, but he's always going to be in the Batfamily because he belongs in it. There's tons of mileage to get out of someone who lives up to ideals that failed him, and how he copes with the aftermath, which is why I'm a huge mark for Jason using guns: It's his way of going Fuck You, Dad, and you can futz around with rubber bullets and "shoot non-vital areas" to sell that Jason is making a big posturing statement in defiance of Bruce's rule while still being a good guy, which works entirely because even if this is Batman's corner of the universe, it's still bigger than him specifically and plenty of hero characters use guns. Jason follows those ideals his way, and there's no Batman character better suited to question and challenge them than him, because like Bruce and Cassandra Cain, Jason is a character defined by the taking of a life, it's just that the life taken was his.
 

Dark Ninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,071
As a one off villain once the identity is revealed it's pointless to keep him as a villain. He shouldn't be hanging around Bruce and his family. An anti-hero with a grudge would be good.
 

Akiba756

Member
Oct 1, 2020
1,126
Sao Paolo, Brazil
Seriously? So is this Jason Todd angry and shit because he knows his alternate self died?

Basically, Superboy Prime's punch jogged his corpse back to life, but he was basically a zombie, the League of Assasins used the Lazarus pit to fully restore him, just to fuck with Batman

The animated movie (which I think is the comics Canon now) has Ra's al Ghul feel guilty after Joker kills him, so he steals Jason's corpse and tries to revive him, but the process messed up his mind
 

canseesea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,015
Seriously? So is this Jason Todd angry and shit because he knows his alternate self died?

It's not his alternate self, it's just him. He was dead and then he wasn't dead.

In the current timeline I believe he was revived by Talia al Ghul, not the Superboy Punch because that didn't happen unless it needs to for whatever's being written at a given time.

But yes, regardless of why and how, he did come back angry and shit.
 

just_myles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,464
A villain. So frustrating to see the route they have taken. He was like a really good one run and done villlain for me. Now like Dick, nobody knows what to do with him. He just hops around.
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
He worked better as a corpse, lesson for batman to remember
While this is the right answer, he works better as an anti-hero/villain you can empathize with over straight villain. He would be great as a willing member of the Suicide Squad if DC actually brought that book back to its roots, instead of the current "Waller is a megalomaniac that acts like Lex Luthor instead of the woman who refused to be broken when her family imploded that will protect the country at any cost".

I guess I am saying I miss the old Suicide Squad, and Red Hood would be perfect on that team in a bronze tiger sort of role.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,110
While this is the right answer, he works better as an anti-hero/villain you can empathize with over straight villain. He would be great as a willing member of the Suicide Squad if DC actually brought that book back to its roots, instead of the current "Waller is a megalomaniac that acts like Lex Luthor instead of the woman who refused to be broken when her family imploded that will protect the country at any cost".

I guess I am saying I miss the old Suicide Squad, and Red Hood would be perfect on that team in a bronze tiger sort of role.
I can't hear you over Red Arrow's cap
A1yDRig4BhL.jpg
 

Ariakon44

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 17, 2020
10,184
I understand this take, but I always found weird how in marvel/dc, superheroes keep coming back to life, but Jason Todd and Bucky Barnes never returned

True, it's not like bringing him back was much different from most other comics heroes (I honestly can't keep track of who has died and returned in X-men any longer) I just remember his death being pretty impactful when I read it as a kid.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,630
I think he works really well as an event villain IF he's been established in that setting before, but otherwise he's better as an anti-hero.
 

Vic_Viper

Thanked By SGM
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,050
He was a great villain for those first two arcs. The Green Arrow arc was a great follow up to Under the Red Hood btw. But after they made him an anti-hero its kinda hard to go back to being another Bat-Family villain without going through all the same stuff. They should have just done a good death for him before the New 52 where he finally redeems himself at the end, but thats long past by now.

Id like to see them just shelve Red Hood until someone comes along with a great idea for him.
 
OP
OP
PhoenixAKG

PhoenixAKG

Member
Aug 14, 2019
7,812
New 52/Rebirth Red Hood kind of felt like Nightwing but edgy in a lot of ways as he did take two of Dick's closest relationships, it was said his current costume was one of Dick's, he had a thing for Barbara, they gave him Dick's brotherly bond with Tim, etc
Jason was at his best during his introduction. Where he was allowed to actually match Bruce. Batman + Punisher + Mob Boss is a cool concept for a character.

That said, Jason is great as the black sheep of the family. He has a genuinely unique dynamic with the rest of the Batfamily and I don't need that changed.



I love Morrison, but Jason was done dirty under him.

Morrison gave him this costume.......

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