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Does anyone actually like the 'you've built up all your power, but we're going to temporarily remove it and now you have to stealth it back' trope?

kubev

kubev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,533
California
Virtualoso said:
That part is annoying, but adds a layer of challenge that makes sense within the context of the game.
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Honestly, I didn't mind it, as I never really found the gunplay in MGS to be all that great. That said, I do think it's interesting because the restrictions never go away throughout the course of the game. It's not just a one-off scenario.

Virtualoso said:
I was referring to your capture and torture. You need to get out of the jail cell but your stuff is a few rooms away.
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Yeah, I remembered what you were referring to in the previous post. I just hadn't considered that part because of how short a time you're without your equipment and how little ground you have to cover in that time frame. I love the twist of them adding a bomb to your inventory, by the way.
 
darz1

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,095
Deus Ex HR Directors Cut had a section where this occurs and it worked really well but that game is already very stealth based
 
Maturin

Maturin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,105
Europe
I despise it.

I particularly hate it in squad based games where suddenly I'm on my own. Look - I bought this game to play as a squad member.
 
bell wood's jet cola

bell wood's jet cola

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,147
I remember this happening in the awful PSOne RPG Beyond the Beyond and completely losing interest in the game the second it happens.
 
Thera

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
The trope isn't the problem. The problem is having a mandatory awful stealth section in a game not focus on stealth.
 

Deleted member 59126

Banned
Aug 10, 2019
2,053
kubev said:
Honestly, I didn't mind it, as I never really found the gunplay in MGS to be all that great. That said, I do think it's interesting because the restrictions never go away throughout the course of the game. It's not just a one-off scenario.


Yeah, I remembered what you were referring to in the previous post. I just hadn't considered that part because of how short a time you're without your equipment and how little ground you have to cover in that time frame. I love the twist of them adding a bomb to your inventory, by the way.
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That's right, I totally forgot about the bomb. That reminds me of the pizza bomb they give you in Death Stranding.
 

Khrno

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
434
I'm fine with levels or scenes where you are captured and stripped of all your items and/or abilities and have to get them back by the end of that level.

However I do not like when you start the game being all powerful like in Assassin's Creed 1, and I think this was also the case on God of War 3? But that's just for the "tutorial level" then you are back to being a scruff and having to learn everything during the game. It's like if they let me have a small bite of this amazing dish, and then they say, no but you have to go and, dunno, go cook it, or something like that.
 
Siggy-P

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
In theory it's a decent idea but in practice it tends to be horribly executed.

Most games that do this feature stealth as an after thought or in a manner that's not good enough to stand on its own. Furthermore the lack of weapons means if you get caught it usually defaults to making you restart at a previous checkpoint.

You will sometimes get a game that does something cool with it.
 
Morrigan

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,385
SunBroDave said:
It's important to understand that the typical reason that this scenario is done is because in classic three act story structure, the end of the second act is the hero at their lowest point, so to make the narrative and gameplay sides of the game cohesive, developers create a situation in which the player is also at their lowest point from gameplay ability standpoint as well.

Of course, it's all in the execution, and there's surely plenty of examples over the years of this type of thing being done poorly. As for recent examples where it's done well, I'll go with Ghost of Tsushima. The sequence is fairly short so it doesn't overstay it's welcome/get frustrating, it uses stealth mechanics that have already been developed throughout the game rather than newly introduce any stealth elements just for this section, and it allows you to listen in on the people around you and get a lot of narrative information while you're doing it. Plus it culminates in an extremely emotional moment to end the sequence.
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...Fine I'll give you that one. I just reflexively posted "no" because I also thought of Metroid Zero Mission and I fucking HATED that part so much lol, and also the Lords of Shadow 2 stealth sections which suuuucked

Wreckord Collection said:
Counterpoint, this was awesome and helped elevate Zero Mission from "good, if handholding" to "essential piece of the series canon and I wouldn't bother with the NES version any more."
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Shit no. I never finished the game because of that bullshit. If I'm not Samus in a power suit blasting down critters, it's not any Metroid I want to play
 
SunBroDave

SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,164
They don't go as far as to remove all your abilities/tools, but an example of good execution for this is the Winter chapter of the original The Last of Us, where after spending the prior 10 hours of the game with someone always by your side, now you're alone for the most part, and put up against a pretty overwhelming amount of enemies and with ammo few and far between.
 
StereoVSN

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
Most of the times I dislike it. Gravity Rush 2 was terribly done in that respect. I also wasn't a huge fan of this to an extent in Spider-Man either.
 
Not Spaceghost

Not Spaceghost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,717
I kinda love it in FF7 when Yuffie jacks all your materia and suddenly you've gotta get hella creative against the boss and enemy fights.
 
Ruisu

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
It's fine if the gameplay it's still enjoyable. One gameplay trope that was REALLY annoying back in the day was forced stealth sections with no good justifications at all. Some enemy type will simply obliterate you in a second even though you could deal with it in any other gameplay scenario, but now you have to stealth around it and your usual abilities are useless.
 
Sacrilicious

Sacrilicious

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,325
Redhead said:
Eventide Island (Breath of the Wild) is one of the best examples of this.
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This.

Most attempts suck but this is a perfect example of how to do it right. It encourages you make the most of game's systems, rather than relying on good equipment, and the gameplay had a brilliant survival feel that is quickly lost in the main game.

The main difference is that it genuinely adds complexity and challenge because the base game has so many systems you can (but often don't) exploit. The problem with most games is that removing abilities leaves you with stripped down, unsatisfying gameplay.

BotW had plenty of systems in place that could replace "standard" gameplay and this was a perfect playground to use them.
 
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tripleg

tripleg

Alt Account
Banned
Jul 30, 2020
1,132
SunBroDave said:
Of course, it's all in the execution, and there's surely plenty of examples over the years of this type of thing being done poorly. As for recent examples where it's done well, I'll go with Ghost of Tsushima. The sequence is fairly short so it doesn't overstay it's welcome/get frustrating, it uses stealth mechanics that have already been developed throughout the game rather than newly introduce any stealth elements just for this section, and it allows you to listen in on the people around you and get a lot of narrative information while you're doing it. Plus it culminates in an extremely emotional moment to end the sequence.
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This was the example that spawned the thread. I think the fact that it was so short lived made it more of a joke in retrospect. It also makes 0 sense that the Khan would even keep your gear bundled in a nice way or not even break your sword - given how important a sword is to a samurai.
 
SunBroDave

SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,164
tripleg said:
This was the example that spawned the thread. I think the fact that it was so short lived made it more of a joke in retrospect. It also makes 0 sense that the Khan would even keep your gear bundled in a nice way or not even break your sword - given how important a sword is to a samurai.
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Oh that's not the section I was referring to actually. I was speaking about the section that happens later, right before the Act 3 title card.
 

giapel

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,600
Redhead said:
Eventide Island (Breath of the Wild) is one of the best examples of this.
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Bingo. Why did it take so long to be mentioned? What Eventide does great though is, while taking you back to the beginning in terms of equipment, it expects a great deal more in terms of understanding of the game mechanics. And it's relying on these rather than introducing a sequence specific gimmick. Fantastic all around.
 
Cuburger

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
Redhead said:
Eventide Island (Breath of the Wild) is one of the best examples of this.
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Yes! I knew Breath of the Wild did this somehow but couldn't remember how it did it so I kept scrolling until I saw someone mention what it was.

It really felt like a test of all the mechanics you've learned about the world and combat up to that point, and even though you were as unequipped and weak as you were when you first started the game, you had the knowledge of the elements, recipes, and combat that made it a challenge the whole game up to that point prepared you for.
 
Sean Mirrsen

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
I liked it in Zero Mission. I generally like it if games try something interesting, restricting the player's arsenal in interesting ways.

Though it helps that I like challenges, I guess. I play Terraria on Mediumcore, just to have the occasional challenge of kitting out in backup gear and traipsing through the now-lethal environment to get my stuff back.
(yes it does occasionally become inconvenient and annoying, like if you die during goblin invasions, but overall I consider it an improvement)
 
ToddBonzalez

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
Eventide Island in Breath of the Wild is one of the best parts of the game.
 
MrFox

MrFox

VFX Rendering Pipeline Developer
Verified
Jun 8, 2020
1,435
I don't mind those if it's not overused. When it's well designed it can be a really fun and challenging mission, and you're happy afterwards to get back all your stuff.

The trope I universally hate is the "follow this person without being seen". The whole game pacing drops down to a halt and that drives me crazy.
 
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Cipher Peon

Cipher Peon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,826
One of the all time greatest moments in Silent Hill 2, the all time greatest video game, is essentially this. 11/10 moment in an 11/10 video game.
 
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tripleg

tripleg

Alt Account
Banned
Jul 30, 2020
1,132
SunBroDave said:
Oh that's not the section I was referring to actually. I was speaking about the section that happens later, right before the Act 3 title card.
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Ah, yeah that was even more of a joke because it happened on the heels of that last event.

Replace Khan with the mongols, they know who you are, why they wouldnt just break your stuff is even more mind boggling.
 
SunBroDave

SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,164
K' Dash said:
Eventide Island was masterfully done.
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Breath of the Wild is one of those rare amazing games where the removal of more efficient/useful options actually makes the game better, because it forces the player to come up with more creative solutions to the situation. It's why resetting the player's inventory back to zero at Eventide and in the Trial of the Sword worked so well, and it's why the game actually gets a little bit less fun the more you unlock the abilities like Revali's Gale that trivialize certain scenarios like "how do I get up there?"
 
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