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Does any game have a story that you’d put up next to the greats in other media (film, books, tv, etc.)?
- Thread starter ToddBonzalez
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Umineko, if it counts, is definitely up there, and so is The House In Fata Morgana.
Probably not all of it, but Nier Automata's ending is also up there with some of the finest moments in all literature in my eyes.
Similarly, Planescape Torment has prose that rivals classic literature in my eyes.
I find the idea that games can only tell pulpy stories closed-minded and hurtful. However, I'd definitely say not enough games are trying to be about their stories first and foremost.
Also, expecting a 50 year old medium to catch up to many more decades of cinema/centuries of literature is somewhat unreasonable.
Probably not all of it, but Nier Automata's ending is also up there with some of the finest moments in all literature in my eyes.
Similarly, Planescape Torment has prose that rivals classic literature in my eyes.
I find the idea that games can only tell pulpy stories closed-minded and hurtful. However, I'd definitely say not enough games are trying to be about their stories first and foremost.
Also, expecting a 50 year old medium to catch up to many more decades of cinema/centuries of literature is somewhat unreasonable.
Stuff like Gone Home, Bury Me My Love, and 1979 beg to differ. Action/horror/sci-fi games definitely excel better at pulpy rather than more intimate/human narratives, although you have the rarities like Last of Us and Hellblade, but other genres like point-n-click, text adventures/interactive fiction, and narrative adventures can pull off those personal stories well due to their gameplay focus, design, etc
They are so few they are the exceptions that prove the rule. You can add a few more in like Dys4ia and Papers Please but still exceptionally rare. I'd still consider The Last of Us and Hellblade very much pulpy but on the more mature end of that spectrum, can't think of a point and click that isn't pulpy.
Sure.
One of my favourite things in fictions is seeing stories set in crazy and imaginative worlds. And in this regard, games like Sunless Sea can easily stand up to the best in literature, and easily demolish anything in TV and film (simply because it's easier to be creative when you don't have to actually show things).
And then you have games that just do stories in a way a fixed narrative cannot. I can't really be bothered to go look for it, but I've already written several times how games like Pyre and Coloratura do that. It's hard to directly compare that to books, but for me actually being able to come up with completely new storytelling ideas that have never been tried before has a lot of merit.
One of my favourite things in fictions is seeing stories set in crazy and imaginative worlds. And in this regard, games like Sunless Sea can easily stand up to the best in literature, and easily demolish anything in TV and film (simply because it's easier to be creative when you don't have to actually show things).
And then you have games that just do stories in a way a fixed narrative cannot. I can't really be bothered to go look for it, but I've already written several times how games like Pyre and Coloratura do that. It's hard to directly compare that to books, but for me actually being able to come up with completely new storytelling ideas that have never been tried before has a lot of merit.
Mother 3 is the best in video games but it wouldn't work in other media imho.
It's still not really comparable to the best books or movies, just its own thing.
It's still not really comparable to the best books or movies, just its own thing.
What really hurts games, particularly AAA games, is the nature of gameplay loops and the prevalence of combat. The narrative of like Uncharted 4 or Lost Legacy are solid adventure film stories, but the games need to throw you into tons of shootouts and have you fight hundreds of enemies. thus creating that disconnect between the story, and the slower puzzles and exploration sections versus being unstoppable killing machines wiping out small armies of enemies. If a game's controls and progression is formatted towards combat, then combat must be a constant.
Indy killed and fought a lot of people across his movies too, but the combat sections in these games remind me of how some RPGs will take the characters to a different battle screen, like an abstraction. What would be a small skirmish with a patrol becomes a 15-minute shootout against dozens of enemies
You see the opposite in some point-n-clicks or even The Walking Dead, where there will be occasional shootouts but they make sense in the story and have a scale that suits the characters and conflict, rather than having near-constant action and shootouts as how you interact with the world and antagonists
Indy killed and fought a lot of people across his movies too, but the combat sections in these games remind me of how some RPGs will take the characters to a different battle screen, like an abstraction. What would be a small skirmish with a patrol becomes a 15-minute shootout against dozens of enemies
You see the opposite in some point-n-clicks or even The Walking Dead, where there will be occasional shootouts but they make sense in the story and have a scale that suits the characters and conflict, rather than having near-constant action and shootouts as how you interact with the world and antagonists
Off the top of my head all I can think of is Undertale, and what really helps its story achieve such greatness is how it plays on the fact that it's a game and therefore the player has certain expectations about it from experience with other games.
It helped that I knew virtually nothing about it before playing it.
It helped that I knew virtually nothing about it before playing it.
I don't think it's possible for a game with any significant level of player agency to match the best story telling of those other mediums since pacing is completely thrown out the window. Just having a fail state in your game likely derails the optimal story progression. Also players will be doing whatever they find entertaining between story elements which will often run contrary to the intent of the game developer.
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It would be great if more people gave examples of those greats in other media (just for reference, I don't want to argue with anyone). I have seen good examples in the thread, but I have read my fair share of books and I can't accept that just because a book is literature it means that it's potentially deeper, it's just a different depht from movies or games. I personally think that a lot of games can compare to the greats of other media, just in different ways as I said.
Xenogears, 999, steins;gate, nier, final fantasy IX and tactics, planescape torment, silent hill 2, to the moon, the house in fata morgana, mother 3, red dead redemption 2... These are just examples of stories that I think are in the same level of the best in literature or movies.
It's hard to compare Xenogears' story with Les miserables for example or Asimov's Foundation because their strenghts are so different, but I would say that, overall, the quality of their stories is comparable.
Xenogears, 999, steins;gate, nier, final fantasy IX and tactics, planescape torment, silent hill 2, to the moon, the house in fata morgana, mother 3, red dead redemption 2... These are just examples of stories that I think are in the same level of the best in literature or movies.
It's hard to compare Xenogears' story with Les miserables for example or Asimov's Foundation because their strenghts are so different, but I would say that, overall, the quality of their stories is comparable.
Devil on the G-String, the main path of course. Other visual novels too, like Fate/Stay Night, Clannad, Little Busters, Fatal Twelve, Steins;Gate, Sharin no Kuni... That said, YMMV if you consider them games.
Ignoring them, Spec Ops: The Line has an excellent story with an interesting twist. Undertale too. Kotor2 after you apply the patches that fix the story.
Ignoring them, Spec Ops: The Line has an excellent story with an interesting twist. Undertale too. Kotor2 after you apply the patches that fix the story.
Games have an inherent advantage and disadvantage when telling stories.
Disadvantage for trying to meld gameplay with narrative but an advantage for the users ability to be absorbed in the world more fully due to the nature of the medium.
I don't read many books but I was more engrossed with mgs's story than most movies I've seen. That counts for something.
Disadvantage for trying to meld gameplay with narrative but an advantage for the users ability to be absorbed in the world more fully due to the nature of the medium.
I don't read many books but I was more engrossed with mgs's story than most movies I've seen. That counts for something.
Video Games already have their own great works and their own classics in their own right.
Comparing to works in other mediums is useless because it defeats the purpose of making the medium evolve. Game developers and gamers should stop to try to validate games as an art form by compare and contrast but defend the artisitcal merits of games on their own terms through the scope of what games can bring to the table . Not by going "hey I can do that too" .
Papers Please
Return of the Obra Dim
This War of Mine
Spec Ops the line
MGS 1 to 4
Shadow of the Colossus
Ico
Tacoma
Silent Hill 1& 2
And the list goes on
Can't really get into details right now but I think the following are good stories, well-told for the medium: Shadow of the Colossus, Spec-Ops: The Line, Telltale's The Walking Dead (first and last seasons), Manhunt, Silent Hill 2, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, Nier: Automata.
By and large, these are games that impacted me emotionally, made me think, and actually used the fact that they were games to their advantage. I don't think you could tell these stories as effectively in a more passive medium--you have to play them yourself.
Games that segregate their stories from their gameplay such that one is always interrupting the other tend to fall pretty flat with me, even if the writing and film-making are superb in isolation. You can't take a great movie, chop it up into scenes, and force the viewer to jump through mechanical hoops to get to the next scene and claim you haven't made that story dramatically worse, if not outright ruined it. Games like that would just be better off being movies or TV shows, imo. The only way they could compare favorably to great works in other media is if you completely ignore and discount the game part and how that enhances or undermines the narrative--the analytical equivalent of those youtube videos that compile the cutscenes of a game into a "movie" with most/all of the interactive bits culled out.
Edit: All that said, I don't think there's been a game that takes advantage of its medium to reach the heights of the best works of film or literature. Not that I've played at least.
By and large, these are games that impacted me emotionally, made me think, and actually used the fact that they were games to their advantage. I don't think you could tell these stories as effectively in a more passive medium--you have to play them yourself.
Games that segregate their stories from their gameplay such that one is always interrupting the other tend to fall pretty flat with me, even if the writing and film-making are superb in isolation. You can't take a great movie, chop it up into scenes, and force the viewer to jump through mechanical hoops to get to the next scene and claim you haven't made that story dramatically worse, if not outright ruined it. Games like that would just be better off being movies or TV shows, imo. The only way they could compare favorably to great works in other media is if you completely ignore and discount the game part and how that enhances or undermines the narrative--the analytical equivalent of those youtube videos that compile the cutscenes of a game into a "movie" with most/all of the interactive bits culled out.
Edit: All that said, I don't think there's been a game that takes advantage of its medium to reach the heights of the best works of film or literature. Not that I've played at least.
Something like Phantasy Star II has actual prose/dialogue that is sparse and stilted, but the world it created is one that is almost perfect at instilling a notion of seemingly idealistic nature being built around fundamentals of inequity and cruelty. It is a very well-considered statement on colonialist attitudes, showing that for those that seek to colonize, whatever civilization and progress might have come with the invaders is in many ways a front for subjugation, violence, and harassment.
There is not much text in the game; it is fundamentally a late-80s RPG experience and not much different from its peers in that regard. Its story is told a lot through its environment and its interactions with the non-playable characters
There is not much text in the game; it is fundamentally a late-80s RPG experience and not much different from its peers in that regard. Its story is told a lot through its environment and its interactions with the non-playable characters
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I think NieR and Automata is there.
They may or may not have have a worse story than the best the other mediums can offer but it also integrates something to the story that only games can offer. Just like movies, tv and books have their own advantages and disadvantages so does gaming and I feel that you can't directly compare any of them.
They may or may not have have a worse story than the best the other mediums can offer but it also integrates something to the story that only games can offer. Just like movies, tv and books have their own advantages and disadvantages so does gaming and I feel that you can't directly compare any of them.
Perhaps it's a bit of a long shot, but what about We Know the Devil? It's short, but it tells a very compelling story IMO.
The Witcher 3 Hearts of Stone, and maybe Blood & Wine.
The Last of Us.
Quantum Break.
Deus Ex.
The Last Door.
To The Moon.
Hellblade.
The Evil Within.
From the top of my head. So, yeah.
The Last of Us.
Quantum Break.
Deus Ex.
The Last Door.
To The Moon.
Hellblade.
The Evil Within.
From the top of my head. So, yeah.
I'd definitely give Xenoblade 1 its fair shake at this -- it's incredibly good at foreshadowing.
Xenoblade 2 is at least as good as your average anime, and better in a good few ways.
XBX's side quests all feel like good Star Trek episodes and people enjoy that so *shrug*
Xenoblade 2 is at least as good as your average anime, and better in a good few ways.
XBX's side quests all feel like good Star Trek episodes and people enjoy that so *shrug*
I don't think there's anything that would come close to the all-time greats yet, but I don't think the average game's story is massively worse than the average TV show or movie.
Then there's stuff like 999, Brothers and NieR Automata to tell stories that wouldn't work as well in other mediums. And that's without mentioning emergent storytellers like Football Manager, where plenty of players' relationships with clubs/footballers in the real world can be affected (perhaps not to huge degrees, but enough) by what happens in that game.
Then there's stuff like 999, Brothers and NieR Automata to tell stories that wouldn't work as well in other mediums. And that's without mentioning emergent storytellers like Football Manager, where plenty of players' relationships with clubs/footballers in the real world can be affected (perhaps not to huge degrees, but enough) by what happens in that game.
I think genre matters here too. No, gaming will not be able to touch the most riveting books and films, but certain genres aren't untouchable, and serve as good examples of what sorts of gaming stories are comparable to other media. For example, I think the Mass Effect trilogy and its universe is better than Star Wars, or as others have said, I think The Last Of Us shits on other zombie movies and shows.
If Matsuno's Final Fantasy Tactics got made into a show, it'd go toe-to-toe with the genre stalwarts like Game of Thrones, and Bioshock is a great depiction of dystopian fiction.
I think this sort of discussion needs a little bit more nuance than "well Metal Gear Solid can never be Citizen Kane" sort of takes that tend to pop up in these threads...if the people saying "no" ever have any effort to put into the posts in the first place.
If Matsuno's Final Fantasy Tactics got made into a show, it'd go toe-to-toe with the genre stalwarts like Game of Thrones, and Bioshock is a great depiction of dystopian fiction.
I think this sort of discussion needs a little bit more nuance than "well Metal Gear Solid can never be Citizen Kane" sort of takes that tend to pop up in these threads...if the people saying "no" ever have any effort to put into the posts in the first place.
That's because compared to the development of book and/or literary art generally (which film mostly borrows for its own language and storytelling methodology, even the surreal stuff), games are exceptionally young and have a number of challenges that get in the way of their meeting or exceeding a style of art that's been around since before Homer. I'm using "art" here to designate a technical pursuit. So games count as art.
Anyway, my point is that games are still figuring out how to meld gameplay and story in a way that feels satisfying. So a lot of these "video game stories are shit" posts are probably fueled by a recognition that game stories suffer compared to other media. But I think rather than match literature and film, games should try to do their own thing. There are only a handful of games that have used what make video game interaction unique to try and tell a story in a way that books can't. If more games thought about their approach to storytelling in that way, they might get a little more respect.
Spiderman PS4 is better than any Spiderman film.
Edit: Well except maybe spiderverse cause I love that so much.
RDR 1 and 2 are on par with the best westerns if you cut out some of the zany side-missions. TLOU is definitely the best zombie story. To The Moon and Soma are on the same level as the best SF movies. So yeah, there are video game stories which are comparable with the best cinema can offer. Books are on another level though.
Well I don't think there's anything quite like Taxi Driver which is my favorite film. But I'd put Witcher games at the level of the books or any other fantasy film/tv/literature. And there's plenty of other stories/writing I appreciate in games just like in films and literature, some philosophical and some emotional or just straight up comedy.
The "greats" of film and literature is incredibly subjective anyway. Like, Ben Hur is tied for the most academy awards for a film, and King Kong is one of the most influential works out there, but I don't really want to watch either of them again. Shakespeare was lowbrow commoner fare in its day that was never meant to be high art. People only give a damn about Bob Dylan's music when a better musician sings it.
If everything is a matter of opinion anyway, why can't a game have better storytelling than the best of other media?
If everything is a matter of opinion anyway, why can't a game have better storytelling than the best of other media?
God of war. Could easily see that edited down to a 2 hour film and still being just as engaging and interesting. Which would be better more than half the stuff released on tv, streaming, and theaters.
Loaded argument cuz everyone's opinion of good movies is different. Example: godfather is one of the best films if all time; I've fallen asleep all 3 times I tried watching it. To me it's boring and dull.
Loaded argument cuz everyone's opinion of good movies is different. Example: godfather is one of the best films if all time; I've fallen asleep all 3 times I tried watching it. To me it's boring and dull.
I think games which attempt to tell their story as a traditional cinematic narrative are almost inherently worse than film/TV.
Gameplay inevitably makes the story telling worse. It severely damages pacing and there is almost always a significant dissonance between the gameplay and the story.
Games are absolutely capable of telling stories of the same calibre as more traditional media, however, they have to be told in a manner which suits the interactive nature of games. Games which leverage their interactivity and tell the story through the gameplay are the only ones which might reach the same heights as film imo.
Gameplay inevitably makes the story telling worse. It severely damages pacing and there is almost always a significant dissonance between the gameplay and the story.
Games are absolutely capable of telling stories of the same calibre as more traditional media, however, they have to be told in a manner which suits the interactive nature of games. Games which leverage their interactivity and tell the story through the gameplay are the only ones which might reach the same heights as film imo.
Red Dead Redemption 2 is easily my favorite prequel across every medium. An incredible self contained story that also greatly enhances the original Red Dead Redemption. I thought it was movie quality. Rockstar finally putting aside the satire and silliness just enough to tell a legit incredible story (of course the satire is still there, it just doesn't dominate like it did in GTA, and to a lesser extent RDR1).
I also would personally put something like Majora's Mask up there. The writing doesn't necessarily come close to the sophistication of a top tier film, or even a AAA masterpiece like a Last of Us or Red Dead, but the emotions, characters, moments, music and feels are all there. Few stories are as memorable, to me, as Majora's Mask, even if it's "simple". Something like finding the swordman cowering in fear during the final 5 minutes, or Anju and Kafei's sidequest, in fact, are only possible through the video game medium.
I also would personally put something like Majora's Mask up there. The writing doesn't necessarily come close to the sophistication of a top tier film, or even a AAA masterpiece like a Last of Us or Red Dead, but the emotions, characters, moments, music and feels are all there. Few stories are as memorable, to me, as Majora's Mask, even if it's "simple". Something like finding the swordman cowering in fear during the final 5 minutes, or Anju and Kafei's sidequest, in fact, are only possible through the video game medium.
As long as there are restrictions on what the player can do and what is presented to prevent ludonarrotive dissonance. That shit really runs the story telling. Like a character that acts like a passive pacifist in cutscenes and dialogue, that in gameplay is gleefully slaughtering thousands of enemies. Or when you slaughter those thousands of elite troopers and go to a cutscene and are easily captured by two nobodies.