• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,627
Yeah, expecting Missy to be the end of the Master's story was a lost cause. I loved how it ended, but no one's going to have the last word on a mainstay of the franchise like that.

If anything, it's trivial to dream up some way for Missy to be the end, and for Dhawan to come before her.
 

Rand a. Thor

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
10,213
Greece
I think Brendan ISN'T a timeless child like the one we have seen who might be the doctor. If I had to guess the humans could have turned out like the Time Lords, as we see with him. If I had to guess his father and boss were the first Cybermen and they were trying to turn him, but couldn't. My best bet is that he is the gatekeeper with the staff, still alive after everyone was turned all those centuries ago, and there is some sort of plot of how humans are the progenitors of every alien species EXCEPT the time lords.
 

Tye

Member
Oct 27, 2017
832
After rewatching the episode I'm convinced that Brendan is a Time Lord and what they did to him at the end was put him into a Chameleon Arc and the clock he was given kinda hints to that (a throwback to 10 using the fob watch)
Yeah, that's absolutely a Chameleon Arch and I'm surprised I haven't seen more people making that connection here (unless it's just too obvious to bother stating, lol). Of course, I'm avoiding the leaks so I haven't been reading any spoiler-tagged discussion, so maybe it's been talked about behind spoiler tags. But yeah, that scene was also very similar to when the Tenth Doctor used the Chameleon Arch in Human Nature. I'm curious to know how this all relates to Captain Jack as well, because I'm sure Brendan's revival being depicted as extremely similar to Jack is similarly intentional, and both the Chameleon Arch and Jack appeared earlier this series in Fugitive of the Judoon. Also, I wonder if this whole ordeal that Brendan went through is the same "training" that Gat and Lee spoke of in FotJ.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,629
On Brendan's revival being similar to Jacks, I think that if they wanted us to make a connection there, Jack would have been killed and revived during his appearance in this season so that new viewers could have had a chance to pick up on the similarity. As it is, Jack's immortality was never mentioned or hinted at.

Or maybe that would have just made it too obvious if there is a connection.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,617

Doctor Who | BBC Drama boss speaks out on future of sci-fi series | Radio Times

The BBC is "a very long way from wanting to rest" Doctor Who, says Drama boss Piers Wenger

"I genuinely – I worked on Doctor Who myself, I produced it for many years, and I can honestly say that I don't think it's been in better health, editorially. I think it's fantastic and… the production values obviously have never been better."

giphy.gif


Even production values are down.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England

Doctor Who | BBC Drama boss speaks out on future of sci-fi series | Radio Times

The BBC is "a very long way from wanting to rest" Doctor Who, says Drama boss Piers Wenger

"I genuinely – I worked on Doctor Who myself, I produced it for many years, and I can honestly say that I don't think it's been in better health, editorially. I think it's fantastic and… the production values obviously have never been better."

giphy.gif


Even production values are down.

This is definitely I think the most splashy and expensive the show has looked but ironically the last couple of Capaldi years Moffat's team had gotten extraordinarily good at making less and less money go further and further, credit to them.

Watched Bad Wolf the other day and thought about how, if that story were made now, it'd be Love Island and The Chase instead of Big Brother and The Weakest Link, which is some amusing food for thought. I miss when the show was (ridiculously) contemporary like that.
 

Tye

Member
Oct 27, 2017
832
On Brendan's revival being similar to Jacks, I think that if they wanted us to make a connection there, Jack would have been killed and revived during his appearance in this season so that new viewers could have had a chance to pick up on the similarity. As it is, Jack's immortality was never mentioned or hinted at.

Or maybe that would have just made it too obvious if there is a connection.
I mean, they didn't show the Chameleon Arch being used or mention how painful the process is in FotJ either, but the scene with it being used on Brendan was very clearly referencing how the Tenth Doctor used it way back in Human Nature.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
Time Lords somehow coming from humans was definitely the impression I got... would certainly explain why they look like humans I suppose lol.

I'm not sure what to make of Brendan, but I wasn't a fan of the way his Irish Superman origin story kept popping in to randomly disrupt the flow of the episode. One minute he seems immortal then suddenly he's old af and his adoptive father and boss are creepy immortal mad scientists. Confused! If he somehow ends up being connected to the Doctor that would be pretty amusing though considering the Doctor's lifelong desire to be ginger.

All I really know is that it seems like a companion is about to lose their bullet/explosion/death-dodging plot armor, and the two I prefer have an army of Cybermen knocking at their flimsy ass door. :(
Is this leading up to the Doctor being "half-human" and Chibnall trying time reconcile that awful plot line from the movie
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,704
Brazil
....so the preview has ZERO captain jack ... one small cameo without meeting the doctor can't be just it, can't it?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,629
....so the preview has ZERO captain jack ... one small cameo without meeting the doctor can't be just it, can't it?

This was already confirmed in an interview. Assume it was a mix of wanting to have a shocking comeback to make headlines, even if it had no real point beyond that, and not wanting it to leak so not wanting to film too many shots.

Honestly it feels like the most cynical gimmick this era has pulled. Completely pointless and added nothing to the show, not even tying in with the episode he was in.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
....so the preview has ZERO captain jack ... one small cameo without meeting the doctor can't be just it, can't it?

Chibnall already said he wouldn't be back this series in interviews, like the post above says, but he has also said he will be back and that it wasn't just a one-off cameo. Chances are they filmed that one small cameo on a 'closed', single indoor set so his return wouldn't be leaked and could be a surprise, and then they'll now be able to film with him 'properly' for a more fully-fledged return as it's out there.

This is part of the problem with Doctor Who - because the show goes somewhere different every week, they have to use a lot of location shooting. Where a period drama might build a period set to use all season or a constant sci-fi show might build a steampunk warehouse set, for instance, that's too expensive for Doctor Who to do because those sets are only used for one episode then torn down - so a great example is that an episode like Silence in the Library was all filmed on locations - universities, actual old libraries, etc. Anyway, point is, this sort of filming makes it really hard to hide surprises, which is why when we do get them they're often on very very tiny sets in a very limited role, haha.

So that's probably the real logistical reason.

That said, they have already filmed the episode for Christmas this year that'll 'tee up' the next series, and we know nothing about it except for a few leaked spy photos of filming that reveal the villain. We don't even know if the companions will be back (I guess we'll find out this week!) - so Jack could totally be in that...
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,468
Watched Bad Wolf the other day and thought about how, if that story were made now, it'd be Love Island and The Chase instead of Big Brother and The Weakest Link, which is some amusing food for thought. I miss when the show was (ridiculously) contemporary like that.

The Beast Above?

(Bonus points if one of the questions was something along the lines of "In what story from a popular TV series does a Blue Peter presenter play am American atop the Empire State Building?")
 

ChrisP8Three

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,006
Leeds
I didn't like the episode, it was all over the place and had too many characters to actually care, which jut further hihglights the writers are struggling to properly write for the main cast let alone episodic companions!
And if it is really going the way that the Human Race became timelords, or timelss and the the timelords studied them and became how they are then that just shits on cannon in the worst ways! not only that it utterly breaks prior plot lines - remember Yana and the ned of time? how Simms master converted all the remaining humans at the end of time into the troclofane? that would retrospectively be broken, not to mention every time any time lord, master , valyard has looked down on humans, called them lesser - so we'd have to suddenly accept even Rasilion never knew the truth?
Or if they some how go down the route theorised in here that the doctor is the timeless child and actually not just a farm boy from galifrey and a messiah?
how does Brandon and actually Ireland work? it can't be galifrey
and somehow Doctor Ruth comes into the mix? let me guess the Doctor is brendan, he'll get a proper mind wipe and regenerate into ruth and flee back to earth and the earlier episode
Aww its all a mess and the final episode either needs to subvert expectations and redeem the series or it will devide the fandom by rewriting all previous cannon
 

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,567
Cape Cod, MA

Doctor Who | BBC Drama boss speaks out on future of sci-fi series | Radio Times

The BBC is "a very long way from wanting to rest" Doctor Who, says Drama boss Piers Wenger

"I genuinely – I worked on Doctor Who myself, I produced it for many years, and I can honestly say that I don't think it's been in better health, editorially. I think it's fantastic and… the production values obviously have never been better."

Even production values are down.
????

Huh? Say what you want about everything else, but the show has never looked better from a production value standpoint. From the globe hopping, wider format, better lenses, to the set design etc.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,439
I didn't like the episode, it was all over the place and had too many characters to actually care, which jut further hihglights the writers are struggling to properly write for the main cast let alone episodic companions!
And if it is really going the way that the Human Race became timelords, or timelss and the the timelords studied them and became how they are then that just shits on cannon in the worst ways! not only that it utterly breaks prior plot lines - remember Yana and the ned of time? how Simms master converted all the remaining humans at the end of time into the troclofane? that would retrospectively be broken, not to mention every time any time lord, master , valyard has looked down on humans, called them lesser - so we'd have to suddenly accept even Rasilion never knew the truth?
Or if they some how go down the route theorised in here that the doctor is the timeless child and actually not just a farm boy from galifrey and a messiah?
how does Brandon and actually Ireland work? it can't be galifrey
and somehow Doctor Ruth comes into the mix? let me guess the Doctor is brendan, he'll get a proper mind wipe and regenerate into ruth and flee back to earth and the earlier episode
Aww its all a mess and the final episode either needs to subvert expectations and redeem the series or it will devide the fandom by rewriting all previous cannon
Ireland might an experiment inside the time lord matrix and the ageless humans were programs. I think you see the master take the doctor there in the next episode's preview and put a device in her, like she may be be hooked up to the matrix.

Omega may have took the process that buried the truth as well, wiped his old memory, so they all believe the romanticized version of their history, they make their own story of genesis. The humans at the end of the universe could just be "one possible future" as the doctor says in Orphan 55.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,617
????

Huh? Say what you want about everything else, but the show has never looked better from a production value standpoint. From the globe hopping, wider format, better lenses, to the set design etc.
At least Series 8 and 9 both looked way better and did more their budget. Rewatching then on Blu-ray while Series 11 was airing really emphasized this to me.

vpSPHCg.jpg

TYEuWZu.jpg
 

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,567
Cape Cod, MA
At least Series 8 and 9 both looked way better and did more their budget. Rewatching then on Blu-ray while Series 11 was airing really emphasized this to me.

vpSPHCg.jpg

TYEuWZu.jpg
Fun fact about that American diner interior. It's in Cardiff Bay. We'd already eaten there when it was used on the series. Super low budget way of getting a bit of free production value on screen. I don't believe they even did much set dressing.

But I still think the last two seasons look better. Again, the location shooting has really put money on the screen. Wider lenses and aspect get more value from those trips too. I'd say sets and CG are about on par, but the locations are better shot (you see more of them) and more varied.
 

Wowfunhappy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,102
...hey, can someone remind me how the cybermen ever got out of the alternate universe they were stuck in in series 2?

The zygon 2 parter is not a good episode even if the speech is awesome

Really?

I know everyone has their own opinions and stuff but I thought that was incredible. I thought all of season 9 was great except for Sleep No More—they should have stuck with the everything-is-a-two-parter format—but the Zygon story was a standout.

...although come to think of it, I don't actually remember what it was about, lol. Just that I really, really liked it.

This is definitely I think the most splashy and expensive the show has looked but ironically the last couple of Capaldi years Moffat's team had gotten extraordinarily good at making less and less money go further and further, credit to them.

Uh, I'm going to hard disagree there—series 8–10 looked way better (even as series 8 sucked). If their budget was actually lower than it is now, then that's just even more impressive.
 
Last edited:

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,439
...hey, can someone remind me how the cybermen ever got out of the alternate universe they were stuck in in series 2?
I think they're the Mondas Cybermen and the ones from the parallel universe escaped because of Davros damaging existence and destroying planets with the reality bomb and the crucible, and in a Christmas special some escaped to Victorian London and were defeated. The Cyberking I believe was the last of those ones. It gets confusing because the cybus design was brought back for the normal cybermen, except without the C chest.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,617
Fun fact about that American diner interior. It's in Cardiff Bay. We'd already eaten there when it was used on the series. Super low budget way of getting a bit of free production value on screen. I don't believe they even did much set dressing.

But I still think the last two seasons look better. Again, the location shooting has really put money on the screen. Wider lenses and aspect get more value from those trips too. I'd say sets and CG are about on par, but the locations are better shot (you see more of them) and more varied.
Lucky!

The locations have definitely been a step up, but even in the Ghost Monument episode where you've big a nice location with the image of the TARDIS in a nice landscape, and there's a slightly wider aspect ratio, the cinematography in dialogue scenes is utterly bizarre. It's like this for the entirety of one sequence. The camera is focused on Jodie's nose in the first shot. And the overall look of the last two series is much more bland to me than the Capaldi years.

fh8A187.jpg


Just have to add some more from the first few episodes of Capaldi's run:

hhbilGz.jpg


F94MLX0.jpg


FlZ9iHp.jpg
 
Last edited:

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
...hey, can someone remind me how the cybermen ever got out of the alternate universe they were stuck in in series 2?

Timeline of events:

  1. Cybermen start out on alt-Earth
  2. Cybermen discover the rip in the universe created by the Daleks' void ship and, on the verge of defeat on alt-earth, begin trying to use it to escape to another universe.
  3. In Doomsday, the Doctor sends the Cybermen back into the 'void' - so not back to their own universe, but to the dead space between universes.
  4. In The Next Doctor, a group of Cybermen manage to escape the void thanks to the Daleks' reality bomb tests in Journey's End opening the hole between universes back up again. The Doctor doesn't destroy the Cybermen, but the one weapon he has is a TARDIS-like Dalek time travel device they stole from the Daleks inside the void. They don't know how to properly work it but he does - so he zaps the Cybermen back in time, essentially, and off-world, to save earth.
  5. The next few encounters with the 11th Doctor are always the alt Cybermen again.
  6. Off-screen, the backstory beyond this is that the Cybus/Alt Cybermen went out into the universe from wherever the Doctor zapped them to and eventually encountered the classic series Mondasian Cybermen. The two races then mingled and combined, and by the time we see Nightmare in Silver, the two versions have become one, which is why in that one you have Cybus style Cybermen that have developed the Mondasian weakness to gold, etc. And from there the race has been consistently a mix of the two, which is why in episodes like The Doctor Falls and indeed this week's you're seeing them all together: alt-universe models, classic series models, Nightmare in Silver models, and an all new one.
 

Goomy

Banned
Aug 31, 2019
88
I have a possible hypothesis on how Missy turned into O, based on the spoilers:

If the Master and the Doctor are the Timeless Children and can regenerate without a limit or any other repercussions, then Missy should've been able to survive her previous self's gunshot and regenerate into O. Confused why he survived a shot clearly marked as fatal, he starts digging into the matter and finds out the secret, gets pissed off about how the Time Lords have been fucking with him his entire life, and decides to destroy them.

At least that'll be my headcanon if Chibnall doesn't explain it.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,468
Since it occasionally comes up in conversation here with people wanting to dabble in Big Finish and/or comics: There's a Humble Bundle on currently with a bunch of Who comics and Big Finish plays. Of particular note is the £11.50 tier which includes some Thirteen comics for the first time (although don't get your hopes up, it looks like it's just a couple of issues, whereas other Doctors have whole volumes!) but also the first series (so three stories) of Ten/Donna BF Audios.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
I have a possible hypothesis on how Missy turned into O, based on the spoilers:

At least that'll be my headcanon if Chibnall doesn't explain it.

At the end of the day I don't think it really needs to be explained anyway. All we have for the laser screwdriver stopping regeneration on max is The Master's own (unreliable) word. While shared event memories are erased at the end of a crossover experience, we know that some footprint of the memory does remain (in The Day of the Doctor we get "I remember this... Almost remember," which is how 11 knows the Fez marks his 'entrance'), so for all we know some sort of imprinted memory ment Missy has some device or other failsafe to block the laser screwdriver from being fatal.

Yes, we see Missy seemingly 'die', but across the series we have multiple examples of an actual 'death' state which is followed by a delayed regeneration, including by The Doctor himself, whose seventh incarnation dies on an Earth operating table as doctors are left confused by his alien anatomy and can't save him from a gunshot wound. He's 'dead' for a few hours and then regenerates in the morgue. So really there doesn't need to be any head Canon other than that Missy did indeed regenerate and then promptly escaped that ship and went to Gallifrey. As an aside this works on multiple levels, as maybe the newly regenerated Master turns on the Doctor again because he thinks the Doctor abandoned him, as he does just sort of unceremoniously leave that ship thanks to the way it all ends for him. So, yeah. I think the context is there to hand wave it.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
At least Series 8 and 9 both looked way better and did more their budget. Rewatching then on Blu-ray while Series 11 was airing really emphasized this to me.

vpSPHCg.jpg

TYEuWZu.jpg

That's more art direction and cinematography. 8 and 9 has better staging and direction by far.

But the actual quality of the visuals has gotten better. Camera quality, graphical quality, special effects and practical effects are all significantly better.

Had those same shots you've got there been done now they'd be of a much higher standard. They are prettier and more interesting/engaging but you can see the green screens and overuse of contrasting to hide the bad effects.

I mean just as a basic example, there's no denying these new warrior cybermen look a thousand times better than the NiS cybermen.
 

EvilRedEye

Member
Oct 29, 2017
747
I don't think we've mentioned the AI this week - scraped 81. Still not normal finale AI levels although I reckon tomorrow's might go up to 83 since Fugitive of the Judoon seemed to go down well.
 

Deleted member 58141

user requested account closure
Banned
Jun 23, 2019
400
A few hours till the finale..

This series has been a major improvement over series.. but still pretty weak overall. Not sure if I'd put it over series 7, since that at least had Asylum which, even with its shortcomings, is infinity more fun than any thing in the Chibnall era. It's still somewhere around it though.

Spyfall was pretty decent. I loved Sacha's Master and thought it was such a fun take on the character. I feel the story itself should've been more fun, especially with the whole Doctor ans Master facing off in different time periods thing. This era is really afraid to come off as campy and it shows. 7.5

Orphan 55 was pretty terrible and been talked about to death. 3

Tesla was a passable pseudo-historical. The highlight was Goran Visnjic's Tesla whom I thought was really endearing. 5

Fugitive was easily the best in the series. Not only because the omgtlorewists but I thought it was a pretty fun mystery from start to finish, with a good bit of humor. Easily the most fun I had with a Jodie episode so far, by a large margin. 8.5

Praxeus I thought was pretty underrated. It managed to use the TARDIS team the best in this era. Delivered a fun mystery with a decent conclusion and managed to incorporate its message in the story in an organic matter. Some clunky writing here and there and bleh characters bring it down, but it's still one of this series's finest efforts imo. 7

Can You Hear Me is frustrating. Lost of good ideas and as a two parter, it could've been something special. In its current form, though, it's sadly a mess. 5

Villa was full of good bits. Love the concept, love the body horror, aspect, the Doctor new attitude towards is such a great touch, and I thought the "it's not a flat structure" speech was Jodie's finest moment so far. It comes off as less than the sum of its parts, though. Thanks to messy editing, a pacing that's all over the place, and a weak conclusion that didn't land at all for me. Another instance of wasted potential. 6.5

Ascension was pretty bad. I can't believe, after the promising Villa, and the sublime treatment Cybermen were receiving in the Capaldi era, we're back tho this. You can swap the Cybermen for any other alien race and the story will work just the same. Weak supporting cast and a weird focus on set-pieces that can never be fun nor impressive with BBC budget brings down even further, and with the second part going all Timelords lore and stuff, I'm not expecting my opinion of the Cyberwars plot-line to change much sadly. 4
 

milamber182

Member
Dec 15, 2017
7,737
Australia
I think in retrospect if they had replaced Orphan with Praxeus and made Can You Hear Me or Judoon a 2-parter it would made the season flow much better.
 

Kalnet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,046
How many hours left till the finale? Gonna go on media blackout cause I won't be able to watch it when it airs live.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,128
Tonight will decide if I treat it like Scrubs where I mentally treat the end of the show as the last regeneration etc.

I really hope they stick the landing else this could be damaging
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,627
No matter what this ends up being, it's not going to break Doctor Who. We've got very good at discarding what we don't like- if half human didn't finish us, nothing Chibnall's got planned will do it.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,861
To everybody who can watch the episode live:

Rv6Ibl.gif


My hopes are not sky high for this, even despite the fact I thought the season opened pretty strongly and I like Dhawan's Master.
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,631
Yeah, even if this episode doesn't stick the landing they can just ignore it next season and never bring it up again. It's hardly going to kill the show or anything.
 

DECK’ARD

Creator of Worms
Verified
Nov 26, 2017
4,748
UK
This is like waiting for a dentist's appointment.

Don't know what to expect, but fearing the worst.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,128
No matter what this ends up being, it's not going to break Doctor Who. We've got very good at discarding what we don't like- if half human didn't finish us, nothing Chibnall's got planned will do it.
I hope you're right. If the leaks are accurate and it is bad, hopefully the next showrunner just dismisses it or pulls a
The Master lied to screw with The Doctor
style scenario
 

JediTimeBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,810
Pure speculation by me:

Graham does an Adric, and Ryan and Yaz leave because of that. Either that or Graham stays with the others, and Ryan and Yaz return to Earth
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,631
Here we go. I hope this is a Judoon tier episode because they need it.