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Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
I think there's something very...British about the idea too. A somewhat quaint simplicity to the idea that this is just a person who has come to be some grand, pure-hearted saviour but started from the humblest of beginnings (aristocratic Time Lord society aside). The whole 'Chosen One' idea just feels very American, which isn't necessarily a criticism - look at something like Buffy that spends its entire run debating the idea of what it means to be the Chosen One and how that affects her outlook. The problem is, that show started with that idea in mind. Sure, various showrunners over Doctor Who's life have probably had in mind the Doctor being some super special deity, but to expressly make it part of canon now potentially recontextualises everything.

Like, I think part of the innate appeal of some of the speeches the Doctor gives is that they came from the understanding of a character that really is a nobody that strives to be good. The 12th Doctor's speech in The Doctor Falls comes to mind - because that Doctor went through so much self-discovery you believe in the earnestness that he delivers it with. Depending on what may or may not happen in the next few weeks, you run the risk of having to view that now as some magical, God of the Time Lords lecturing the lessers of his race on how to act.

I'm being hyperbolic and, obviously, we have no way of knowing how it'll be handled until we see, but that is my main concern.
It's pretty funny with how people last season were saying that Chibnall was moving the Doctor away from the God/saviour-type character of the RTD and Moffat days and back to being just a simple traveler. Moffat actually did that with Capaldi.

"I am not a good man! And I'm not a bad man. I am not a hero. I am an idiot with a box and a screwdriver."
 

Cosmonaut X

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,947
I think there's something very...British about the idea too. A somewhat quaint simplicity to the idea that this is just a person who has come to be some grand, pure-hearted saviour but started from the humblest of beginnings (aristocratic Time Lord society aside). The whole 'Chosen One' idea just feels very American, which isn't necessarily a criticism - look at something like Buffy that spends its entire run debating the idea of what it means to be the Chosen One and how that affects her outlook. The problem is, that show started with that idea in mind. Sure, various showrunners over Doctor Who's life have probably had in mind the Doctor being some super special deity, but to expressly make it part of canon now potentially recontextualises everything.

Like, I think part of the innate appeal of some of the speeches the Doctor gives is that they came from the understanding of a character that really is a nobody that strives to be good. The 12th Doctor's speech in The Doctor Falls comes to mind - because that Doctor went through so much self-discovery you believe in the earnestness that he delivers it with. Depending on what may or may not happen in the next few weeks, you run the risk of having to view that now as some magical, God of the Time Lords lecturing the lessers of his race on how to act.

I'm being hyperbolic and, obviously, we have no way of knowing how it'll be handled until we see, but that is my main concern.

Interestingly, I think there's also something very appealing to kids about the idea of a rebel who got fed of the "grown-ups" of Time Lord society and took off to do something more fun and worthwhile....
 

Spectromixer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
16,619
USA
I think there's something very...British about the idea too. A somewhat quaint simplicity to the idea that this is just a person who has come to be some grand, pure-hearted saviour but started from the humblest of beginnings (aristocratic Time Lord society aside). The whole 'Chosen One' idea just feels very American, which isn't necessarily a criticism - look at something like Buffy that spends its entire run debating the idea of what it means to be the Chosen One and how that affects her outlook. The problem is, that show started with that idea in mind. Sure, various showrunners over Doctor Who's life have probably had in mind the Doctor being some super special deity, but to expressly make it part of canon now potentially recontextualises everything.

Like, I think part of the innate appeal of some of the speeches the Doctor gives is that they came from the understanding of a character that really is a nobody that strives to be good. The 12th Doctor's speech in The Doctor Falls comes to mind - because that Doctor went through so much self-discovery you believe in the earnestness that he delivers it with. Depending on what may or may not happen in the next few weeks, you run the risk of having to view that now as some magical, God of the Time Lords lecturing the lessers of his race on how to act.

I'm being hyperbolic and, obviously, we have no way of knowing how it'll be handled until we see, but that is my main concern.



I do like that we seem to have hit a point now where every version of the Cybermen can run together concurrently like some weird, evolutionary train, rather than the Daleks where it feels like the newest one is taken as default.

I also didn't notice until someone pointed it out, but I love that Ashad has a Mondasian Cyberman's arm as if he was a total rush job.

Yeah! I love that detail. I prefer Cybermen to Daleks so I am ok with another finale with them. I just hope a companion doesn't get converted again.
 

Static Veins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
340
UK
My thoughts on the leaks:

I actually really like the idea that the Time Lords have been living a lie and stole all of their regeneration or even time travelling ability from another species. They've always been arrogant fuckers. Finding out they stole what makes them special almost feels expected. And if the Doctor is part of the species this was all taken from, I can understand why the Master turned the way he did - finding out someone he hates so much is the source of his entire society would be certainly something to drive such an egomaniac back over the edge.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
I do like that we seem to have hit a point now where every version of the Cybermen can run together concurrently like some weird, evolutionary train, rather than the Daleks where it feels like the newest one is taken as default.

I also didn't notice until someone pointed it out, but I love that Ashad has a Mondasian Cyberman's arm as if he was a total rush job.

I do think it makes a lot of sense for them as a race, honestly. And it was the natural conclusion of what RTD did - once we had the alt-universe Cybermen entering 'our' universe, the natural conclusion that Moffat than took it to was that they would eventually hook up with the Mondasian Cybermen and intermingle. But also, Cybermen are technological, so it makes sense in the same sort of way there are PCs running Windows 7, Windows 10, hell, there's still PCs running Windows XP in enterprise. It's a weird analogy, but the Cybermen are like that. It makes a lot of sense.

The Daleks, meanwhile, are all about that purity, so it never really made much sense to me seeing the old and new models together on New Skaro in series 9. Like, surely in their search for perfection and purity they'd just rip the Dalek out of the old shells and put them into the newest, most improved ones. In fact, this was demonstrated in a sense by the Daleks in Series 5 exterminating the 'inferior' older models. Aside from a small handful of 'officer class' Daleks of a different design, ala Sec or the Supreme Dalek, or models with specialist weapons, it never made sense to me they would all be anything but identical. Whereas with the Cybermen it totally makes sense, and it was probably my favourite bit about the end of Series 10, seeing them all together.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
Re the spoilers
I'm fine with messing with the Doctor's past and the series' lore - what I don't like is the idea of the Doctor as this mythical figure, no longer a bloke with a box telling stories but an Important Being from Ancient Past with a Great Future. This stuff is boring and it's not what Doctor Who is about. Add a secret incarnation of the Doctor - fine, but then use that idea to tell a good story (Moffat did, focusing on "what does it mean to be The Doctor" rather than "what are the big lore implications of having a 8.5 incarnation"). Otherwise, you'll end up with a footnote to the Wikipedia article of the Doctor (like the Valeyard, the Other and the likes). From the leaks, I can't see where this Timeless Child stuff is going, but on the other hand, we have just a very vague summary...

I also think that a pre-Hartnell Doctor undermines the character arc of the First Doctor. But I'm fine with a secret incarnation of the same Time Lord before he was the Doctor (that is, before he promised to never be cruel or cowardly).
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,480
The Daleks, meanwhile, are all about that purity, so it never really made much sense to me seeing the old and new models together on New Skaro in series 9. Like, surely in their search for perfection and purity they'd just rip the Dalek out of the old shells and put them into the newest, most improved ones. In fact, this was demonstrated in a sense by the Daleks in Series 5 exterminating the 'inferior' older models. Aside from a small handful of 'officer class' Daleks of a different design, ala Sec or the Supreme Dalek, or models with specialist weapons, it never made sense to me they would all be anything but identical. Whereas with the Cybermen it totally makes sense, and it was probably my favourite bit about the end of Series 10, seeing them all together.

I had assumed the VOTD daleks were badwolf survivors and destroyed for having human dna (and that's why the progneitor device wouldn't recognise them as they weren't of kaled descent)
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
My thoughts on the leaks:

I actually really like the idea that the Time Lords have been living a lie and stole all of their regeneration or even time travelling ability from another species. They've always been arrogant fuckers. Finding out they stole what makes them special almost feels expected. And if the Doctor is part of the species this was all taken from, I can understand why the Master turned the way he did - finding out someone he hates so much is the source of his entire society would be certainly something to drive such an egomaniac back over the edge.

We know how the Time Lords got time travel. The Three Doctors covers it.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
I had assumed the VOTD daleks were badwolf survivors and destroyed for having human dna (and that's why the progneitor device wouldn't recognise them as they weren't of kaled descent)

The Victory ones are from Davros' DNA, as they make specific reference to the events of Journey's End. So they're not human. They're still 'impure' though to be fair
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,480
The Victory ones are from Davros' DNA, as they make specific reference to the events of Journey's End. So they're not human. They're still 'impure' though to be fair

Ah, I forgot that. Though in theory daleks made from the cells of Davros should be as pure as can be lol, as I assume he knew how to trigger the mutations that led to that form.
 

Static Veins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
340
UK


Looks like the social media accounts will be posting about the episode immediately after it airs in the UK again


They have posted that message before every episode this series. The only exception was for Fugitive of the Judoon, where they implored people to watch the episode live and said they would post no spoilers for 24 hours after it aired.
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,625
I have no idea what to expect tonight. They'll save the big stuff for the finale with the whole Timeless Child thing but there's going to be some kind of big cliffhanger.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,642
Brazil
the long retconned past of the doctor

when will the companions change
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,629
Thought that was by far the best episode of this era. Genuinely really good.

Few parallels between Brendan and Jack: Immortality through resurrection, memories stolen. Wonder if there will be a connection. We saw Jack's actual childhood in Torchwood though, and no similarities there.

Was that the first shoutout to the Cybermen's gold allergy post reboot?
 

EvilRedEye

Member
Oct 29, 2017
747
I enjoyed that! Second good episode of the Chiball era along with Fugitive of the Judoon. That ongoing storyline is blatantly not getting resolved this series though, seems like it'll just set up series 13.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,424
Great episode, seems a bit lazy to do another master/cybermen 2 part finale but it was very different story from
'Time Enough and space' to be fair.
 

iFirez

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,555
England
The child in this story is either the lone cyberman... or The Doctor... hear me out - she couldn't remember being the Ruth Doctor earlier this season, so what if this is apart of that? The two people involved in the mind wipe this episode seemed to be the same age at different points in time too so I wonder if there's some time shenanigans going on.

The theories about the child (Brendan?) being related to Jack do work nicely too but I think there hasn't been enough setup for that... but that post-fall coming back to life scene was very very Jack.
 

Wallace Wells

Member
May 24, 2019
4,839
The child in this story is either the lone cyberman... or The Doctor... hear me out - she couldn't remember being the Ruth Doctor earlier this season, so what if this is apart of that? The two people involved in the mind wipe this episode seemed to be the same age at different points in time too so I wonder if there's some time shenanigans going on.
The Timeless Child is a girl though and we know that's related to the Doctor somehow
I thought Brendan was the last cybermen, somehow.
Yeah I thought that as well but the whole immortality via resurrection is too on the nose for it to be related to Jack somehow. Or maybe it's both? I dunno
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,677
Few parallels between Brendan and Jack: Immortality through resurrection, memories stolen. Wonder if there will be a connection. We saw Jack's actual childhood in Torchwood though, and no similarities there.
I don't care if they retcon the Doctor's origin story again but if they retcon Torchwood that's too far!
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,629
Brendan could possibly be the Doctor, and all that was on Gallifrey, but going by Ruth, Timeless Child Doctor should still regenerate into a different form on death, not just resurrect if that was to be the case.
 

EvilRedEye

Member
Oct 29, 2017
747
I wouldn't say the resurrection is too on the nose to be Jack related. A link would make sense to me given the apparently pointless nature of his appearance earlier in the series.
 

RyanPrime_

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,429
Scotland
I'm thinking Brendan is The Doctor and the two gentlemen are Gallifreyian. Didnt the rumour say the Timeless Child couldnt die?
 

iFirez

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,555
England
The Timeless Child is a girl though and we know that's related to the Doctor somehow
That is a good point, but there's something about the way they came in - the same age - and mind wiped him, that to me must somehow link or at the very least parallel what happens with The Doctor and The Timeless Child as she didn't know anything about it when the Master first told her and Ruth is connected somehow too. Next week should be interesting.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,424
The Timeless Child is a girl though and we know that's related to the Doctor somehow

Yeah I thought that as well but the whole immortality via resurrection is too on the nose for it to be related to Jack somehow. Or maybe it's both? I dunno
Maybe you're meant think it's the last cyber man at first, but it's a red herring and those two guys were timelord agents who are 'resetting' Brendan again as part as an experiment. I don't know and they've given the doctor a mission to pretend to be human.
 

Deleted member 58141

user requested account closure
Banned
Jun 23, 2019
400
Brendan is most probably the timeless child, being put through a series of experiments by Gallifrey.

The episode I felt was the most boring thing you can do with Cybermen, and such a huge step down from what was done with them in the Capaldi seasons. You can swap them with any alien race and the story will work just fine. Just bland, standard, barely serviceable Doctor Who.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,677
It was definitely intentional that Brendan revives the same way as Jack does (the whole gasping as he gets up thing.)

So I wonder if either
- He's Jack, with some kind fuckery and face changing going on (I mean, we know he becomes the Face of Bo at some point so he doesn't exactly look the same forever)
- He's related to Jack in some way
- He's a set point in time like Rose made Jack. Not connected, just immortal for the same reason. Can't die until he serves his purpose.
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,480
The doctors preparations were kinda garbage lol. That's what she went into a battle with?

Won't comment on the rest until I see the conclusion
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,424
The Timeless Child is a girl though and we know that's related to the Doctor somehow
The timeless child we saw in the flashbacks is a girl but I don't see why the timeless child necessarily has to be one regeneration. The timeless child could be called that because it's one person who keeps getting reset to a child, and in this case maybe left on earth as part of a time lord experiment.
 

Alent

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,723
Shit's popin' off. I haven't read any leaks or spoilers. The who episode we where just guessing who Brendan is; the old guy, the lone Cyberman, the Master, some other Time Lord. Damn lol. I do hope we get to see Jack again. And Yaz ans Graham are good.
 

Static Veins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
340
UK
That was a helluva set-up. The aftermath of the Cyber War, the return of the Lone Cyberman and his resurrection of the Cyber army once again felt threatening (absolutely adore the new modern/retro Cyberman design and their STOMPING new musical theme). And once again Jodie Whittaker is at her best when playing a darker, desperate Doctor. Couple that with the mystery of the immortal Irishman & The Master returning in all his scenery-chewing glory and next week is set to be INSANE.
 
Oct 30, 2017
931
Anyone else think this episode actually had a good and memorable soundtrack? Every other episode has been pretty bland and forgettable but thought it was pretty good tonight.