yeah Amy seemed mean a lot of the time for some reason. Everyone loved her but I never really did until after it was all over.
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Doctor Who Series 12 |OT| Spyfall Is Where We Start
- Thread starter Paradox
- Start date
yeah Amy seemed mean a lot of the time for some reason. Everyone loved her but I never really did until after it was all over.
Don't get me started on Amy and Rory... The hell was that two minute long divorce those two had that one episode and never mentioned again.
As much as I love Moffat his writing in regards to the different stories he has created, when it comes to the companions he wrote, he always messed up.
I don't understand, it was used pretty much exactly how it's always been used in NuWho. Lock/Unlock doors, scan stuff. Did I miss something?
If she sees a bad guy she just points at it and buzzes the screwdriver. Constantly. I don't remember any of the other modern Doctors using it so much.
Sorry, yeah, it's 165 episodes of the new show in the can so far, but that's through to the 2020 Christmas Special later this year. I was thinking of the total number of serials (not episodes) overall new and old.
Thinking on it more I'm realizing that I've been both underplaying the previous series' use of the "historical celebrity" episodes and overplaying how much they've been now.
The issue is very much how you put it: that the way Whittaker pulls the brakes to ELI5 makes it feel more awkward and childish than previous series'. Even Rosa is guilty of this; it just had other stronger pieces pulling their weight.
At one point Whittaker points the screwdriver at the train's ceiling and something falls on the monster guy's head.
The show's had a bad track record of treating the sonic screwdriver like a magic wand and while Moffat era tried to some extent to pull back Chibnall era has been dangerously close to going full force on it. She made the damn thing out of kitchen spoons after all.
Moffat pulling back on it was especially weird when he's the one who brought it closer to the magic wand than anyone else. There was a commentary track on "Silence of the Library" where Tennant talked about how the script called for The Doctor to just wave the screwdriver around to search for life forms and he firmly opposed it, necessitating using the screwdriver to hook up with the computer terminal instead. When John Hurt then mocked 10 and 11 for waving them around it during the anniversary a usually dormant part of my brain started screaming. (Granted, 10's characterization during that episode was pretty off in general. =/)
That AI score is quite concerning - I've given one of the more tepid responses on here and even I don't think that's deserved. Suggests that the audience is cooling on the show in general in the same way the AI scores in series 1 were pretty cold until the audience warmed up to the show.
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I don't know how anyone can feel anything but complete apathy towards her. She is very similar to Series 7B Clara in that her personality is being a companion of the Doctor, and that's it, the difference being that S7B is 8 episodes, after which Clara was largely course-corrected, whereas Yaz is currently at her 15th ep.
Her interests are travelling with the Doctor. Her motivation for travelling with the Doctor is that its one of her interests. She doesn't like not travelling with the Doctor. Her flaws are...maybe that she travels with the Doctor too much? Even that's a push.
I don't tend to pay much attention to individual AI scores- they're more worthwhile as a sense of how the audience feels about the series as a whole.
Series 11's AIs dropped after the Arachnids/Tsuranga 1-2 punch and never recovered, despite many of the following episodes being better. It's looking like Orphan 55 might have pulled the same trick this time out.
One thing this series' ratings are making abundantly clear is that Chibnall and co. TOTALLY bungled a golden opportunity for the show. Interest was through the roof around the Whittaker casting, and they completely failed to capitalise on it. The series is doing OK, but it could have been one of the biggest things on TV if it was better.
Series 11's AIs dropped after the Arachnids/Tsuranga 1-2 punch and never recovered, despite many of the following episodes being better. It's looking like Orphan 55 might have pulled the same trick this time out.
One thing this series' ratings are making abundantly clear is that Chibnall and co. TOTALLY bungled a golden opportunity for the show. Interest was through the roof around the Whittaker casting, and they completely failed to capitalise on it. The series is doing OK, but it could have been one of the biggest things on TV if it was better.
Eek, final rating of 5.38 for Orphan 55. We're back down to Capaldi levels. Looks like Series 13 may end up being unlucky for the show if this carries on.
My understanding is we're guaranteed at least another two due at least in part to the HBO deal.
Clara's problem was that she vastly overstayed her intended role. They figured enough of her out for her to be the Impossible Girl..... then that was done and she was still around. And so a good chunk of Moffat's tenure after that was having Clara bungle around with Smith and then with Capaldi as he tried to figure out what the hell she was doing now.
Yaz's problem is that Chibnall has pretty confidently settled on her character...... and it amounts to fuck all. Her character ultimately boils down to "Pakistani" and "cop", and while the former at least provided the great Demons of Punjab the latter has contributed nothing.
But at least that's been better than Ryan, who's increasingly trying my patience between him faffing about like a teen on a sugar high and him constantly stumbling onto his successes.
Whatever you do, the newest Doctor is the worst place to start.
My unconventional viewing guide for first time watchers:
My unconventional viewing guide for first time watchers:
- Series 5-6
- Series 7 ending with The Angels Take Manhattan
- Series 1-4, specials
- Continuing Series 7 beginning with The Snowmen
- Series 8-10
- S2.10. Love & Monsters
- 2.11. Fear Her
- 3.04. Daleks in Manhattan
- 3.05. Evolution of the Daleks
- 3.07. 42
- 4.04. The Sontaran Strategem
- 4.05. The Poison Sky
- 4.06. The Daughter's Daughter
- 4.??. Planet of the Dead
- 6.09. Night Terrors
- 7.02. Dinosaurs on a Spaceship
- 8.10. In the Forest of the Night
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Every now and then I remember this episode exists and that it's the only NewWho I haven't seen. I was busy that week or something and never tracked it down.
Anyway... This last episode was a fun romp but the Chibnall era still has a ways to go, much as I hate to say it. My biggest complaint remains the companions - even Graham is fading away this series.
Moffat intended for his Doctor Who to be a dark fairy tale, but that episode went way over the top and was like a story for really young kids that had absolutely no tonal consistency with the rest of the season or Capaldi's Doctor. The series flows better without it.
On another note, since Sleep No More is often compared to it as being the worst, most skippable episode of its series...rewatching it I actually kind of liked it? The sleep concept is cool, Clara and Capaldi are great in it, it's mainly the ending that really doesn't work.
I haven't seen Series 12 but I'd place Series 11 episodes like Arachnids in the UK and It Takes You Away at the absolute bottom of the barrel.
The latest ep was ok, not as awful as last weeks, just ok. Nothing super memorable about it. They didn't do anything other than have Tesla and Edison part on good terms at the end. awwww. shucks.
yeah, the companions were barely necessary in this story. Yaz is a nothing character at this point but the Doctor seems to trust her more /or Yaz comes across as less of an idiot than the other two. Graham saying the obvious is part of the companion, to help the audience fill in the gaps, especially when the series has to explain so much context.
yeah, the companions were barely necessary in this story. Yaz is a nothing character at this point but the Doctor seems to trust her more /or Yaz comes across as less of an idiot than the other two. Graham saying the obvious is part of the companion, to help the audience fill in the gaps, especially when the series has to explain so much context.
See this is why I always advise against anyone saying to a newcomer to the show to follow a watch list or skip stuff (and I'd say the same for Star Trek), because, for instance...
- Love & Monsters isn't a particularly great episode of Doctor Who, but it's a really sharp script that I think is a must-watch just to see what the show can do when a writer goes mad on the format
- The S3 Dalek episodes are flawed, but they are thematically the most interesting Dalek story after Dalek - and in this sense they are far superior to, say, Asylum of the Daleks, which poses a really interesting question (what about the Daleks that are so bad/insane even the Daleks don't want them?) and then answers it in the least interesting way possible (they're rusty and OLD and here's some old designs, FANWANK! oh). Like, the scenes where they turn on each other, where the subordinate Daleks huddle close to each other in the sewers to plot against their commander -- that stuff cuts to the heart of the Daleks and is worth suffering through awful accents and pig people for.
- I'd never cut the 42 or the Sontaran episodes as while they're pretty pedestrian and average, both contain important scenes for character arcs and development (Martha phoning home; the first real hint that Saxon has something against the Doctor specifically; Wilf re-meeting the Doctor again, properly; Sylvia's hatred of the Doctor, etc) - all that stuff pays off in various ways later.
Admittedly, Fear Her and In the Forest of the Night are irredeemably shit, and Night Terrors is bizarrely misplaced given Amy'd just lost her child at that point and yet she's flippant about the distressed kid in this episode and all that. In the Forest of the Night, Night Terrors and Curse of the Black Spot all have a unique mark of shame though in that they are simultaneously distinctly average to bad and contribute nothing to the wider show in terms of character development, lore, etc.
Anyway, my point is, I think a key part of Doctor Who is suffering through the bad stuff, but also the nature of the show is so wildly disparate and all over the place that one man's trash may truly be another man's treasure more with this show than perhaps any other. I say this as someone who will defend Love & Monsters' right to exist vehemently. Like, even Fear Her, right - that is a rubbish episode, but it has three or four little moments and scenes where that episode exists in a way to tie a bow on Rose and the Tenth Doctor; between The Idiot's Lantern, The Impossible Planet/Satan Pit and this, you're quietly sold on these two as a couple in love even if they don't admit it, which is then crucial to Doomsday. So in this sense, it is worth watching at least once. I'd always advise people not to skip, but just to pick a start point and watch.
I remember one guy on another forum who was obsessed that Love and Monsters was a great episode and everyone else was just too stupid to appreciate its experimental and nuanced brilliance.
Love and Monsters is interesting knowing the context of the "Design a Monster" contest.
There was an interview, I think, with the kid that won (Now an adult) and it was fun to read from his perspective how he remembers the episode and production.
There was an interview, I think, with the kid that won (Now an adult) and it was fun to read from his perspective how he remembers the episode and production.
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The idea of skipping over any episode of any show you're trying to get into it pure craziness to me. Start at episode one and if by episode three you can't even see a glimmer of potential that could peak your interest then the show's probably not for you. This show in particular is one where, even if it drastically changes aesthetically/tonally each week, you at least get a sense of whether you like the bare bones of it pretty quickly.
I say all this as someone currently suffering through the early seasons of Supernatural under the promise that 'it gets better' ten or so seasons later.
In retrospect, there is a slight whiff of ego about Series 11. At the time it largely felt like 'commitment to a vision' that was leading to such prominent changes in style, but now that Series 12 has somewhat reverted back to a more 'typical' feel you do get the sense that certain things were changed for the sake of change.
Which is interesting, because RTD and Moffat both suffered from ego-trip series too, but theirs seemed to come in their sophomore years (Series 2 and 6) rather than their first.
I say all this as someone currently suffering through the early seasons of Supernatural under the promise that 'it gets better' ten or so seasons later.
In retrospect, there is a slight whiff of ego about Series 11. At the time it largely felt like 'commitment to a vision' that was leading to such prominent changes in style, but now that Series 12 has somewhat reverted back to a more 'typical' feel you do get the sense that certain things were changed for the sake of change.
Which is interesting, because RTD and Moffat both suffered from ego-trip series too, but theirs seemed to come in their sophomore years (Series 2 and 6) rather than their first.
I loved Clara mostly for Jenna Coleman who is a better actor than most of the companions. I just feel like she stuck around a bit too long.
I assume you're exaggerating :-) IIRC S1 of Supernatural is mostly monster of the week, and S2 onwards has a different big bad with MOTW episodes mixed in, and the lore keeps expanding. It's been one of our favorite shows. Sure, some seasons are worse than others, and I understand the current apathy in the OT, but overall it's well worth it imo. At the very least if you stop, don't miss the Scooby Doo episode, I think it was last season. That was awesome.
Honestly, I'm at the point where I just want a new everything. New showrunner, new cast, new Doctor. Whittaker deserved better, so much better, but now we're 1 1/2 seasons in and if I compare her Doctor to the Doctors of Eccleston, Tennant, Smith or Capaldi her portrayal of the role just feels... bland and stagnating. I think all the other NuDoctors were able to make the role their own, they all brought a recognizable twist to the character, but Whittaker's Doctor still feels colorless and somewhat lifeless to me. I don't blame her for that - the entire new run has an air of blandness surrounding it after all - but I just want them to move on and try something entirely new again already. My interest reached lows I don't think it can recover from.
I think the 60 anniversary (ask Eccleston every time) might be a good point to reboot it and do a Christmas special with the new doctor. I guess the doctor retires to help build Gallifrey and he returns to Earth after hundreds of years in a different time and you're not sure who the doctor is any more. Kind of the opposite of how they did Rose. Maybe do a few specials of mini series or extended episodes first like Sherlock, to play with the formula then go back to the series.
I feel like it's a case of CC trying to juggle too many eggs at once: new scope, new focus, new Doctor, new sex of the Doctor, new companions etc etc. As a result, he messed up everything, apart from the drama in series 11.
To be honest, I think the series is painfully middling, not awful or very good, but then you don't want Doctor Who to become irrelevant. I think BBC should just ride it out with Whittaker and Chibnall, he just had a big hit with Broadchurch so he seem like he might make the show a hit again, but that didn't happen like we all guessed, after the 60th anniversary, it sounds like a good time to try it again.
They aren't ditching Chibnall this early and I think he deserves 1 more season if he doesn't drop the ball in the 2nd half of this one. But he needs to write 1 or 2 of the companions out. I like them but 3 is too many on a permanent basis. Fam be damned LOL. The show should take a break in 2022 so they can film 4 movie length episodes for 2023 with different popular writers from the show's past (Cornell, Gaiman, Mathieson, Gatiss, McRae etc.) and the last one being a big 60th Anniversary spectactular shown in theaters like Day of the Doctor. Then I predict Toby Whithouse will be the new showrunner.
1 Doctor and full 3 series is more than enough chances, but it's just my opinion. I'm not like that 'fire Moffat' guys for almost 10 years. I don't get a say.
I think every showrunner deserves 3 seasons unless they really drop the ball. Despite what some people say the ratings are still good and the brand is still profitable. But they should change the showrunner more often to keep things fresh.
I think the show is probably safe through about 2022 or 2023, but at that point it might
Part of the blame sits with Chibnall, though. I have no idea why we needed 3 companions, for instance. I have no idea why he did this. Something RTD doesn't get enough credit for is the framework set with series 1. People laud Series 5, but the interesting thing is that Moffat copied it almost wholesale:
Anyway, using RTD's structure wholesale in S5 is something Moffat admitted to himself, so it's not just projecting - and it was such a smart thing to do. Then, in series 6, he branches out massively with his own structure.
By not following any of the previous templates, Chibnall created an impossible hill to climb - too much to establish and do, from episode structure to tone to characters and new aliens and so on. So it is a prison of his own making.
Part of the blame sits with Chibnall, though. I have no idea why we needed 3 companions, for instance. I have no idea why he did this. Something RTD doesn't get enough credit for is the framework set with series 1. People laud Series 5, but the interesting thing is that Moffat copied it almost wholesale:
- First episode with Doctor, Companion and Boyfriend
- Travel and adventures with just Doctor & Companion
- Return home for a check-in and adventure with the boyfriend
- Classic monster at series midpoint
- Bad-ass 'soldier' type character introduced as a secondary companion who is willing to commit the violent acts the Doctor & Companion can't/won't
- Finale brings the Doctor, Companion, Boyfriend and Soldier all together at last, where all have a role to play.
Anyway, using RTD's structure wholesale in S5 is something Moffat admitted to himself, so it's not just projecting - and it was such a smart thing to do. Then, in series 6, he branches out massively with his own structure.
By not following any of the previous templates, Chibnall created an impossible hill to climb - too much to establish and do, from episode structure to tone to characters and new aliens and so on. So it is a prison of his own making.
It felt like Chibnall made changes for the sake of it, rather than to make it better. Sundays, no Christmas specials, 4 companions, no old monsters in series 11.
I know some people say that about having actresses play the role, but having actresses play the role too means more good actors can play the role and it makes regeneration more special. That's a good change.
I know some people say that about having actresses play the role, but having actresses play the role too means more good actors can play the role and it makes regeneration more special. That's a good change.
Personally, I believe that he looked at the template for the show in 1963, and used that as his starting point; it seems to fit with how the show was orignally envisaged. As I said, that's a personal opinon, and I'm not sure if it's accurate.
Yeah indeed but those episodes were like 4 parts so it was different how much you could give each character in a story.
The 4th story Marco Polo was 7 parts, lol they couldn't do that today. Imagine if Telsa was 3 hours.
I think i might already be done with this series, the larger cast doesn't work for me, although i do like Bradley Walsh as a companion.
The writing also has been a huge let down. Dr who has always had moral tails, but they now feel shoe-horned into the script. The global warming episode is a great example. Just awful. And the james bond one.
Its easy to write a script - find something in history, like Tesla, change most of it and insert generic alien.
The writing also has been a huge let down. Dr who has always had moral tails, but they now feel shoe-horned into the script. The global warming episode is a great example. Just awful. And the james bond one.
Its easy to write a script - find something in history, like Tesla, change most of it and insert generic alien.
I don't know if kids would watch it without a monster. But I did think the scorpion minions looked quite good.