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Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
Man, I know I'm not saying anything unique here but I finally got to Face the Raven and Heaven Sent with my Capaldi rewatch and Heaven Sent is still such an amazing masterpiece on so many levels. The writing, the acting, the cinematography, the pacing, the music. The Doctor deals with loss so often but it's never been shown anyway near as well as here. I don't think there will ever be another episode like it. It's Steven Moffat's, Peter Capaldi's, and Murray Gold's finest hour. There's nothing as insane as the Doctor literally dying permanently billions upon billions of times.



Doesn't hurt that it looks and sounds stunning on Blu-ray. It also reminds me of The Prestige.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,762
I decided I was going to start the new season tonight! I got all my house chores done after work. Took a bath. Got the surround sound. Popcorn popped. TV on. Lights off. Load up my BBC app on Roku aaaand....

They don't have the new season?! What?! My life is ruined.
 

cheese toast

Member
Oct 29, 2017
728
Who's up for some wibbly-wobbly copyright-wopyright?

First up we have a bunch of direct-to-video spin-off stories from the mid-90s created by Reeltime Pictures, aka a company that definitely was not the BBC. So while 'Downtime', 'Dæmos Rising', and 'Mindgame' were not able to include or even mention the Doctor, they did feature just about everything else: Sarah Jane, the Brigadier, the Great Intelligence, UNIT. Plus, in 'Shakedown', Reeltime Sontarans could not look like BBC Sontarans, so they looked like this:

Steg_Vorn_and_other_Sontaran.jpg


Then there's 'Devious', a Doctor Who fan series that's sort of maybe possibly considered canon? Technically still in production since 1991, clips were included on The War Games DVD, so it's not as though the BBC is in any effort to stamp it out. Notable for getting Jon Pertwee back in the role for a full regeneration sequence from Two to Three and, um, featuring an in-between-regenerations Doctor along the way.




There's a bunch more. Crazy stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who_spin-offs#Video
 

Radiophonic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,600
I remember reading about all the Reeltime videos and various other knockoff stuff back in DWM back in the day, but never bothered tracking any of them down. If the BBC didn't own the rights, anyone could make their own stuff by going to the creators and doing it themselves. A lot of diehards were hungry for anything Who-related during the post-cancellation years.
 

ClivePwned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,625
Australia
I did grab a few of these spin offs cheaply (Airzone Solution, The Stranger ones) in the 90s. Borderline unwatchable that looked like they were filmed by people who did wedding vids or corporate training films (to be fair, they probably were). The first Sontaran one was a step up but I checked out after that. Never rewatched any of them (quite possibly only finished the Sontaran one)




yeah, they were pretty bad.

In other news- it looks like the Season 18 Bluray set for next month may already be sold out. It's like £56 on Amazon now.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,460
Worth also mentioning that one of the spinoffs - Downtime - also happens to be the first onscreen appearance of one Kate Lethbridge-Stewart, who makes a further appearance in Daemos Rising (which actually came out just a year before Rose); it's generally accepted that the later appearance in the main series is the programme acknowledging the fan works.

I've a nagging feeling I've seen some other production use those Sontaran masks. I've got the BBC HHGTTG Vogons on the brain, but I've looked up a picture and they don't seem to match.
 

ClivePwned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,625
Australia
The main business of Reeltime was making Mythmakers vids (basically an hour long interview with a Doctor Who star). I only had a very few on tape since they were very niche and expensive, but now they are have been releasing them in linked DVD sets with about 6 interviews per set. I've been watching them slowly as I rewatch the classic series. They are quite interesting looks at the actors careers before during and after Doctor Who.

So far, just gone through the Hartnell and Troughton vids (many of these were conducted in the 80s and 90s so you can see Nick Briggs' hairline disappearing (yes, the Dalek voice guy handles most of the interviews). There are ones for every classic series Doctor apart from Davison (so far), one for monsters and one for villains. When I had some of these on VHS, the best ones for me where the behind the scenes people. There was a great 2 interview with Barry Letts and Terrance Dicks that I'm hoping gets a DVD re-release.

There's also a Blake's 7 set that I'm just finishing up. That has an amazing interview with the recently deceased actress Jacqueline Pearce (Servalan/ or Chessene in The Two Doctors). That woman had a very dark life.
 

exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,951
So, girlfriend wanted to give Doctor Who a shot. Did some research and found that series 5 was highly recommended.

Watched Episode 1 and it was pretty damned bad. For a late 2000's show, this looks worse than mid 90's Star Trek. The plot was really campy in a bad way. It might hold up to some original Trek episodes but that's a pretty low bar. Did I choose the wrong season? Or is this just what Doctor Who is like?
 

Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
10,533
So, girlfriend wanted to give Doctor Who a shot. Did some research and found that series 5 was highly recommended.

Watched Episode 1 and it was pretty damned bad. For a late 2000's show, this looks worse than mid 90's Star Trek. The plot was really campy in a bad way. It might hold up to some original Trek episodes but that's a pretty low bar. Did I choose the wrong season? Or is this just what Doctor Who is like?
Doctor Who ebbs and flows between campy sci-fi and serious sci-fi and outright horror sci-fi at various points. I tell people they need to watch at least three episodes for it to really click.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
So, girlfriend wanted to give Doctor Who a shot. Did some research and found that series 5 was highly recommended.

Watched Episode 1 and it was pretty damned bad. For a late 2000's show, this looks worse than mid 90's Star Trek. The plot was really campy in a bad way. It might hold up to some original Trek episodes but that's a pretty low bar. Did I choose the wrong season? Or is this just what Doctor Who is like?
The Eleventh Hour? Really?

If you're really talking about Series 5 you probably want to skip everything until Capaldi in Series 8, and even then I don't know
 

Joqu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,030
The Waffle Kingdom
Hm. Regarding how it looks, I'm not gonna pretend the monster effects look good but the Eleventh Hour is still a rather gorgeous episode. It's well-directed by any standards.

As for the writing, I suppose that's a matter of taste but I absolutely think it's one of the show's finest, yeah. It's considered a good starting point for a reason.
 

Kino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,323
So, girlfriend wanted to give Doctor Who a shot. Did some research and found that series 5 was highly recommended.

Watched Episode 1 and it was pretty damned bad. For a late 2000's show, this looks worse than mid 90's Star Trek. The plot was really campy in a bad way. It might hold up to some original Trek episodes but that's a pretty low bar. Did I choose the wrong season? Or is this just what Doctor Who is like?
If I were you, I'd go all the way back to the first episode of the reboot, the Ninth doctor's season. The effects are much worse, the show looks cheaper, and the writing is arguably more camp and melodramatic, but the show didn't click with my mom until she started there and she has since binged the entire series of NuWho.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,964
The appeal of Doctor Who is that every episode is something new and fresh. If you didn't like this week's episode-it could be entirely different next episode.

One week it's a chase caper, the next it's a horror story, the next a goofy humorous episode, the next a heartbreaking tragedy, after that it's a historical episode-then it ends with a big budget action movie episode with a cliffhanger. The tone, location and supporting cast change from week to week making it always feel slightly different.

To think that an episode like Gridlock is even the same show as something like Heaven Sent or Listen is just incredible.
 

ClivePwned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,625
Australia
So, girlfriend wanted to give Doctor Who a shot. Did some research and found that series 5 was highly recommended.

Watched Episode 1 and it was pretty damned bad. For a late 2000's show, this looks worse than mid 90's Star Trek. The plot was really campy in a bad way. It might hold up to some original Trek episodes but that's a pretty low bar. Did I choose the wrong season? Or is this just what Doctor Who is like?

Try the Jodie Whitaker eps if you have access to them. Definitely less campy. Not as good as Season 5 but if The Eleventh Hour offends, they are about as different as the series has gotten.

Also Doctor Who is not the show to watch if you expect perfect effects on every episode and nothing ever smelling slightly of cheese
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,964
And I mean-c'mon. Do the effects really take you out of this scene? It's awesome - to this day.

 

Deleted member 17388

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,994
So, girlfriend wanted to give Doctor Who a shot. Did some research and found that series 5 was highly recommended.

Watched Episode 1 and it was pretty damned bad. For a late 2000's show, this looks worse than mid 90's Star Trek. The plot was really campy in a bad way. It might hold up to some original Trek episodes but that's a pretty low bar. Did I choose the wrong season? Or is this just what Doctor Who is like?
Might be better to start with Series 1 Rose, looks worse but generally it's really easy to become attached to the characters
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,022
So, girlfriend wanted to give Doctor Who a shot. Did some research and found that series 5 was highly recommended.

Watched Episode 1 and it was pretty damned bad. For a late 2000's show, this looks worse than mid 90's Star Trek. The plot was really campy in a bad way. It might hold up to some original Trek episodes but that's a pretty low bar. Did I choose the wrong season? Or is this just what Doctor Who is like?
I think most would recommend you go with the David Tennant doctor. That's season 2 of the modern era, the 10th doctor. Rose (Billie Piper) is the companion and she had been in the previous season with Eccleston too.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
I think most would recommend you go with the David Tennant doctor. That's season 2 of the modern era, the 10th doctor. Rose (Billie Piper) is the companion and she had been in the previous season with Eccleston too.
Might be better to start with Series 1 Rose, looks worse but generally it's really easy to become attached to the characters
If his complaints were about the look and campy plot he's definitely not going back o find the RTD series any better
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
I wouldn't skip the Season 1 finale. Bad Wolf Rose and 9 and the regeneration is still one of my favorite scenes from Nu Who.
There's a lot of great stuff in Series 1 really. The finale, Dalek episode, definitely the Moffat WII two parter, even the Dickens episode is fun.

I'd recommend Girl in the Fireplace as a good first Doctor Who episode.
 
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Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
Hate to double post, but as someone who at first felt Hell Bent was kind of jumbled, messy, and disappointing the first time, after rewatching I still think as I've said before that it really is a masterpiece. I'd say it's my favourite Who finale and maybe a top 10 episode. The fact that it's a character piece focused on Clara and the Doctor is what caught everyone off guard.

It's the perfect ending for perhaps the most special companion there's ever been for the Doctor, with him going farther than he has for anyone to save her. And the way he deals with the Time Lords, while it lasts, is just awesome in a way that actors like Matt Smith or Jodie Whitaker, as good as they may be, couldn't do.

While the Doctor's arc here is obviously similar to the Time Lord Victorious of Waters of Mars, there's few other notable callbacks to Tennant here, like the Doctor referencing how he's used a mind wipe telepathically before (Donna) and saying "Four knocks. It's always four knocks." Capaldi points a gun at a Time Lord like Tennant did in End of Time. His saving of Clara is reminiscent of Tennant saving the original Capaldi in Fires of Pompeii. Like I've said before, there may be similarities between his Doctor and Pertwee, Tom Baker, etc., but Capaldi is Tennant pt. II.

KtaSx17.jpg


I know Moffat intended the Hybrid to be both Clara and the Doctor, but the signs in the script point to it being solely the Doctor. "All Matrix prophecies concur that this creature will one day stand in the ruins of Gallifrey." I don't know how I didn't realize it before, but it's the Doctor standing in the ruins of Gallifrey when he's talking to Me at the end of the universe, and Clara never steps out. "It will unravel the Web of Time and destroy a billion billion hearts to heal its own." This is definitely the Doctor and not Clara, burning a billion billion of his own hearts in Heaven Sent as he continually dies and is born again. Also the fact that he himself says "I became the hybrid."

I also realized how the Hybrid is both a kind of tragic Greek-style self-fulfilling prophecy and a Bootstrap Paradox, as mentioned in Under the Lake - the Time Lords inadvertently kill Clara and capture the Doctor and interrogate him for billions of years in order to learn about the Hybrid, resulting in the Doctor becoming the Hybrid.

And while Clara's speech from Listen referred to The Day of the Doctor I love how it also retroactively ties into Hell Bent.

"This is just a dream. But very clever people can hear dreams. So, please, just listen. I know you're afraid, but being afraid is all right. Because didn't anybody ever tell you? Fear is a superpower. Fear can make you faster and cleverer and stronger. And one day, you're going to come back to this barn. And on that day you're going to be very afraid indeed. But that's okay. Because if you're very wise and very strong, fear doesn't have to make you cruel or cowardly. Fear can make you kind."

h9xllBe.jpg
 
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JediTimeBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,810
Sorry, haven't had time to look through the thread, but has anyone read any of the 13th Doctor novels, e.g. Combat Magicks ?

Just preordered Scratchman!
 

Rassilon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,593
UK
Hate to double post, but as someone who at first felt Hell Bent was kind of jumbled, messy, and disappointing the first time, after rewatching I still think as I've said before that it really is a masterpiece. I'd say it's my favourite Who finale and maybe a top 10 episode. The fact that it's a character piece focused on Clara and the Doctor is what caught everyone off guard.

It's the perfect ending for perhaps the most special companion there's ever been for the Doctor, with him going farther than he has for anyone to save her. And the way he deals with the Time Lords, while it lasts, is just awesome in a way that actors like Matt Smith or Jodie Whitaker, as good as they may be, couldn't do.

While the Doctor's arc here is obviously similar to the Time Lord Victorious of Waters of Mars, there's few other notable callbacks to Tennant here, like the Doctor referencing how he's used a mind wipe telepathically before (Donna) and saying "Four knocks. It's always four knocks." Capaldi points a gun at a Time Lord like Tennant did in End of Time. His saving of Clara is reminiscent of Tennant saving the original Capaldi in Fires of Pompeii. Like I've said before, there may be similarities between his Doctor and Pertwee, Tom Baker, etc., but Capaldi is Tennant pt. II.

KtaSx17.jpg


I know Moffat intended the Hybrid to be both Clara and the Doctor, but the signs in the script point to it being solely the Doctor. "All Matrix prophecies concur that this creature will one day stand in the ruins of Gallifrey." I don't know how I didn't realize it before, but it's the Doctor standing in the ruins of Gallifrey when he's talking to Me at the end of the universe, and Clara never steps out. "It will unravel the Web of Time and destroy a billion billion hearts to heal its own." This is definitely the Doctor and not Clara, burning a billion billion of his own hearts in Heaven Sent as he continually dies and is born again. Also the fact that he himself says "I became the hybrid."

I also realized how the Hybrid is both a kind of tragic Greek-style self-fulfilling prophecy and a Bootstrap Paradox, as mentioned in Under the Lake - the Time Lords inadvertently kill Clara and capture the Doctor and interrogate him for billions of years in order to learn about the Hybrid, resulting in the Doctor becoming the Hybrid.

And while Clara's speech from Listen referred to The Day of the Doctor I love how it also retroactively ties into Hell Bent.

"This is just a dream. But very clever people can hear dreams. So, please, just listen. I know you're afraid, but being afraid is all right. Because didn't anybody ever tell you? Fear is a superpower. Fear can make you faster and cleverer and stronger. And one day, you're going to come back to this barn. And on that day you're going to be very afraid indeed. But that's okay. Because if you're very wise and very strong, fear doesn't have to make you cruel or cowardly. Fear can make you kind."

h9xllBe.jpg
Hell Bent is a bit better on re-watch aye.

Regardless of what Moffat has said, I took the hybrid as meaning the 'Doctor and friends', rather than exclusively Doctor and Clara.

Companions are enablers of the Doctor's heroics and empathy and are more than capable of offering their own in kind.
Whereas the master is friendless and without either empathy or heroism.

There was that sort of arc in series 10 with the Doctor trying to teach Missy these strengths, but his approach was rather flawed in simply isolating Missy in a box.

Missy / the Master's growth seemingly came at the end of The Doctor Falls when they both managed to observe the Doctor & friend's self sacrifice for others... twice.

In the end the Master/Missy remained friendless and betrayed themselves.

I take your hypothesis and like it anyway.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,726
England
So, girlfriend wanted to give Doctor Who a shot. Did some research and found that series 5 was highly recommended.

Watched Episode 1 and it was pretty damned bad. For a late 2000's show, this looks worse than mid 90's Star Trek. The plot was really campy in a bad way. It might hold up to some original Trek episodes but that's a pretty low bar. Did I choose the wrong season? Or is this just what Doctor Who is like?

It's a family show that's really kid-friendly. It moves about rapidly, hopping from hardcore sci-fi concepts to campy adventures to horror, philosophy and stuff that's borderline cartoon.

It has more in common with Harry Potter than Star Trek, in a way. You have to go into it knowing what to expect, really, including the fact that whatever year you pick the effects aren't going to be up to scratch with the best stuff. The Eleventh Hour is weird, though (like Rose), because it was their very first time grappling with HD and so while I think the show generally looks quite lovely, all the CGI stuff looked naff then and worse now. To give you an idea on budget, on average at a time when they were both on fair a single episode of Doctor Who would cost less than a third of a single episode of Enterprise. So, y'know, that's where the show is at. It's remarkable what they achieve, tbh.
 
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Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,621
Also been rewatching S1, as my fiance was interested in watching from the beginning after S11. I'm liking these first few episodes more than I remember. But something that I don't think registered the first time but is really obvious now, is how absolutely shit the music is! It's so cartoonish and leans so heavily into this wacky, zany vibe that's even made worse by being run through some bad synths.

It's a family show that's really kid-friendly. It moves about rapidly, hopping from hardcore sci-fi concepts to campy adventures to horror, philosophy and stuff that's borderline cartoon.

It has more in common with Harry Potter than Star Trek, in a way. You have to go into it knowing what to expect, really, including the fact that whatever year you pick the effects aren't going to be up to scratch with the best stuff. The Eleventh Hour is weird, though (like Rose), because it was their very first time grappling with HD and so while I think the show generally looks quite lovely, all the CGI stuff looked naff then and worse now. To give you an idea on budget, on average at a time when they were both on fair a single episode of Doctor Who would cost less than a third of a single episode of Enterprise. So, y'know, that's where the show is at. It's remarkable what they achieve, tbh.
Wasn't Planet of the Dead the first one shot in HD?



I hope these are their actual outfits
 

BrokenFiction

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,322
ATL
Relevant to DW fan interests, perhaps:

https://www.themarysue.com/david-tennant-does-a-podcast/

Things We Saw Today: David Tennant's Launching a Podcast Where He Interviews Fabulous Famous People

...will feature the actor and his scrumptious Scottish accent interviewing boldface names in movies, TV, and politics.

The first guest? His Broadchurch co-star and recent Academy Award nominee, Olivia Colman. We got a sneak peek, wherein we got to hear Olivia Colman discussing the logistics of a certain scene with Emma Stone in The Favourite.

Future guests include "Whoopi Goldberg, Sir Ian McKellen, Jon Hamm, the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown, Michael Sheen, Krysten Ritter and Samantha Bee, and of course the current Doctor Who Jodie Whittaker."
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,726
England
The shocker is Eccleston. I liked him as the Doctor, and he's certainly better than Jodie, but Capaldi and Smith were leagues better.

I think in large part it's about audience, though. YouGov polls the general British public, all ages, and that was always the point about Moffat's era: versus the RTD era, it had way higher international audience but seriously dipped in the UK, and I think that just means when you get a poll as broad as what yougov does... the results skew towards the Doctors with the most popular eras that were the most widely watched in the UK.