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Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness |OT| No, more mutants. (SPOILERS)
- Thread starter ZeoVGM
- Start date
Just watched this movie this last night and enjoyed it overall, but did not like the ending at all or what they had done with Wanda.
I did watch WandaVision, so it does make sense on the route they were heading with the Darkhold. But I had hoped
Just disappointing either way.
And I know the thread is marked SPOILERS, but post is chock-full of end movie spoilers so I marked it, anyways.
I did watch WandaVision, so it does make sense on the route they were heading with the Darkhold. But I had hoped
it was something she would have gotten help with eventually instead of her becoming a mass murderer because she is so consumed with grief and focused on getting her children back
It just seems they are deadset on finishing off Avenger Wanda one way or another. Even if she survived, she has done way too much to be forgiven for. I had liked her as an Avenger and it really seems that path has closed now, which I am not happy about.
But I really don't know what Elizabeth Olson's contract is at (amount of movies). Maybe she isn't interested in continuing.
It just seems they are deadset on finishing off Avenger Wanda one way or another. Even if she survived, she has done way too much to be forgiven for. I had liked her as an Avenger and it really seems that path has closed now, which I am not happy about.
But I really don't know what Elizabeth Olson's contract is at (amount of movies). Maybe she isn't interested in continuing.
Just disappointing either way.
And I know the thread is marked SPOILERS, but post is chock-full of end movie spoilers so I marked it, anyways.
Elizabeth has already confirmed she's very much still interested in the role, and pretty much talks as if it's all but guaranteed Wanda is still alive
The biggest (only?) laugh in my theater was when they introduced themselves as the Illuminati.
My group thought it was way to violent for the children we'd brought. I sort of already knew that but knew my kids were fine with it, but some of the others spent like the last half of the movie with their eyes closed (they seemed especially afraid of the souls of the damned). Their parents were agitated because of how much of a departure this was from normal MCU stuff.
It seemed to me that 838 Strange hadn't actually caused that Incursion but Bad Strange had instead? Amd the Illuminati wrongly executed him?
My group thought it was way to violent for the children we'd brought. I sort of already knew that but knew my kids were fine with it, but some of the others spent like the last half of the movie with their eyes closed (they seemed especially afraid of the souls of the damned). Their parents were agitated because of how much of a departure this was from normal MCU stuff.
It seemed to me that 838 Strange hadn't actually caused that Incursion but Bad Strange had instead? Amd the Illuminati wrongly executed him?
I would love a six to eight part Disney+ series of America and sidekicks (maybe that minotaur) searching for her moms in a sliders style adventure.
Wanda seems so ridiculously popular with fans that there's no way she's gone for long, yeah. Whether its 616 Wanda or a Variant that returns.
We also have that Agatha show coming, and unless there's a summary I missed it'd be an obvious spot to bring her back in.
So if incursions can be caused by messing with alternate universes too much you'd think the 616 universe is potentially in peril considering what happened in No Way Home.
I'm dead certain that we are getting Earth 616 Wanda not just back, but a full blown film or new series featuring her. It's absolute madness to me how much popular she got thanks to Elizabeth Olsen.
Yes, very much so. And just like in all the other timelines, it's Strange's fault.
I'd love it if we got that. Give her a redemption arc, girl deserves it.
Lol how do you get redemption after what she got up to in the movie? In fact she was even more brutal than any other villain when we look at how she cut a swathe through people. And this version was apprently the tamed down version.
Better to keep her as an agent of chaos, she can't for me be a 'hero' again.
Redemption might be too strong of an word, but we need to remember that we are talking about arguably one of the most powerful characters in the MCU getting corrupted by the Darkhold and doing awful things, and she lives in an world where two Captains America have as one of their best friends a former brainwashed Hydra assassin that also did unspeakable things.
It's in the very DNA of Marvel to have character fall from grace and then make a come back.
The only way I can see Wanda getting a redemption arc is if they pull a Mandarin style retcon and establish that she was actually under the direct control of Cthon in Multiverse of Madness or something, but I can't see that working.
…she was literally corrupted by the Darkhold. What are you talking about, it's right there in the film. There is nothing to retcon there.
I mean in the sense that she was literally not in control of her actions. The Darkhold, from what I gathered, only corrupts what was already there and makes it worse. Per Wanda, it tempted her.
I mean retconned in the sense that if it's revealed that Cthon or someone was basically literally puppeteering her body and she had nothing to do with it.
By introducing even bigger threat and have Wanda show up to save the day, as long as she didn't act smug about it and look remorseful for what she'd done, I think it'll be fine
When the X-men show up I am sure they are going to do something to establish that connection with Magneto and Polaris.
Nothing ever good comes of messing with time and reality. In the comics the heroes of the 616 Universe learned that the hard way when the incursions began. There had been numerous major events in the preceding years that involved fucking around with spacetime.
No it's definitely not like that and I don't think they've left it open to that possibility in the future. Wanda was willfully doing those things. But it was the Darkhold's influence that was telling her it didn't really matter, not to worry about the consequences, that she'll get everything she wants and be happy if she just does what she needs to do and kills anyone in her way. It doesn't mind control the user or anything it merely goads them into doing evil things with the power it offers. In the name of chaos and darkness and all that jazz. It's a book of hell written by a demon and it bears a malignant force.
Wanda's not a pure of heart superhero and that's a good thing. She has the capacity to be cruel and do great evil. She does right under the influence of someone like Clint or Vision who understand what she's going through and want to see her at her best, she can swing to the other end when someone like Ultron or something like the Darkhold just sees her as a vessel for committing evil. That they've illustrated that quite clearly throughout her character arc is a really great thing to see.
Yeah she may not be on a team but Strange would at least vouch for her in that she's not purely evil or anything and that she had already done the right thing by destroying the Darkhold when she was able to think clearly. And they need someone as powerful as her.
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The Darkhold isn't Erskine's Super Serum that fucked up the Red Skull but made Steve Rogers a super soldier. There is no good things coming from reading the Book of the Damned, Wanda was corrupted and while America managed to make her confront what she became, Strange by engaging with the Darkhold is also fucked. There will be consequences for what he did too, in fact it's heavily hinted that the incursion that Strange caused might doom Earth 616 and that third eye isn't good news.
Wanda killed some sorcerers who knew the deal when they got their sling rings and some heroes in another dimension. She wasn't running around nyc herself at the start of the movie. She's good to scrub, just like strange in 838, the public doesn't need to know the truth.
What id love is for her for get redeemed over a series or movie only to have an incursion of alt heroes from 838 seek to capture and put her on trial.
What id love is for her for get redeemed over a series or movie only to have an incursion of alt heroes from 838 seek to capture and put her on trial.
That would be CRAZY cool, I love how much directions the MCU has opened up.
Honestly, while that seems cool, I don't see how it would work logically. "So this lady just came in and soloed the best heroes we got. Time to go hunt her down with the Great Lakes avengers."
She doesn't have access to the Darkhold anymore. So while she is powerful, she likely isn't as powerful as she was in the Multiverse of Madness. Also, it's heavily hinted that Earth 838's Illuminati are a bunch of assholes that ran a police state type of heroism. They hunting Scarlet Witch and declaring war to Earth 616 seem like logical next steps, it's not like the Illuminati's whole purpose in the Hickman's Avengers run wasn't to stop incursions by annihilating other Earths.
My biggest issue with the movie is, at least to me, they didn't bring the Darkhold to the forefront as the sorta 'actual' villain as much as it should have if her actions were primarily due to it. Like, there's a pretty big gap between asking America nicely to use her powers (and upon finding out she's not able, training her to use them) and sending giant monsters to kill her. It's less clear than with Bucky, who seemed to have little to no free will at all as the Winter Soldier.
I don't think we know enough about the universe to know if that's true. I'm not super aware of the comics version of the Illuminati, but my understanding was that they were more brains than brawn. They also didn't really go in prepared for what was coming to them (Mr. Fantastic and Carter had little chance against her powerset, if they knew what was coming I think the others may have been able to pull something off). They could easily have a bunch of other heroes and send a team over explicitly trained for Wanda's powerset, as strong as it is. Like, I imagine Jean Grey would still be hanging out over there? They might even still have a Vision.
I really like Waldron's line of thought when it comes making Wanda a full blown antagonist. If she wasn't the antagonist, she wouldn't be the protagonist either, because that was a Doctor Strange film after all. We know that the Book of the Damned corrupted Wanda and what she did as the Scarlet Witch is an weight that she will have to carry, that makes her for a more interesting character for me.
'Multiverse of Madness' Screenwriter Wanted Tom Cruise to Play An Alternate Iron Man
"I asked: Could we get Tom Cruise's Iron Man?" Screenwriter Michael Waldron spills the beans on 'Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness.'
www.rollingstone.com
The biggest missed opportunity was not having Vision in this. The dude is alive and has his old memories and she's seemingly "killed off" and he's nowhere to be seen?
There is a Vision in the MCU. But he isn't Wanda's Vision. That one is dead. He might have his memories, but he isn't the one she loved.
The Darkhold isn't something that just made a good person bad. It amplified and tempted her dark thoughts, but she did them. She'll have to own that.
As far as her redemption, on 616 that should be possible. She hasn't killed too many people here. No one even knows she massacred the Illuminati, though Strange will know she did some damage.
She can be redeemed if she finds happiness. And she will. Because the Illuminati will come for her and she must be sympathetic to the audience and the 616 heroes.
Thinking about all of the known ways to traverse the multiverse in the MCU:
1. The Avenger's quantum time bridge. A borderline case as it is limited to alternate universes that come into existence due to the timeline branches the technology itself causes.
2. The TVA's tempad technology. This is also (seemingly) limited in the TVA's hands, accessing only the "sacred timeline" and branches therein, though He Who Remains and his variants presumably used the same kind of tech to traverse each others' realities.
3. The Watcher has this ability innately, as he's a god like being that exists in a domain outside of the multiverse and is capable of viewing, entering, and pulling people and objects from them at a whim.
4. Infinity Ultron was also capable of doing this once he became aware of the Watcher's existence. Not clear if other beings with all six Infinity Stones could have done this too or not.
5. The corrupted Doctor Strange from What If...? summoned the zombies from their universe during the fight against Infinity Ultron. It's not clear if this is something he is able to do on his own or if it was with the Watcher's cooperation.
6. The Runes of Kof-Kol, the spell that Strange attempted to use to make people forget Spider-Man's identity, ended up inadvertently pulling in nine different beings into the 616 universe (including the symbiote) when it backfired before it was contained. Not intentional and possibly not repeatable.
7. America Chavez has the power to open rifts in space that lead to different universes.
8. Dreamwalking allows the user to possess an alternate version of themselves in another universe, but this is forbidden magic written in the Darkhold that comes with a heavy toll on the user.
-Possible but technically unconfirmed case: Clea likely can traverse the multiverse as she knows Strange caused an incursion and told him to come with her to fix it.
It's actually pretty difficult to move across the multiverse in the MCU thus far, and for those in the 616 universe America is basically the only real option.
1. The Avenger's quantum time bridge. A borderline case as it is limited to alternate universes that come into existence due to the timeline branches the technology itself causes.
2. The TVA's tempad technology. This is also (seemingly) limited in the TVA's hands, accessing only the "sacred timeline" and branches therein, though He Who Remains and his variants presumably used the same kind of tech to traverse each others' realities.
3. The Watcher has this ability innately, as he's a god like being that exists in a domain outside of the multiverse and is capable of viewing, entering, and pulling people and objects from them at a whim.
4. Infinity Ultron was also capable of doing this once he became aware of the Watcher's existence. Not clear if other beings with all six Infinity Stones could have done this too or not.
5. The corrupted Doctor Strange from What If...? summoned the zombies from their universe during the fight against Infinity Ultron. It's not clear if this is something he is able to do on his own or if it was with the Watcher's cooperation.
6. The Runes of Kof-Kol, the spell that Strange attempted to use to make people forget Spider-Man's identity, ended up inadvertently pulling in nine different beings into the 616 universe (including the symbiote) when it backfired before it was contained. Not intentional and possibly not repeatable.
7. America Chavez has the power to open rifts in space that lead to different universes.
8. Dreamwalking allows the user to possess an alternate version of themselves in another universe, but this is forbidden magic written in the Darkhold that comes with a heavy toll on the user.
-Possible but technically unconfirmed case: Clea likely can traverse the multiverse as she knows Strange caused an incursion and told him to come with her to fix it.
It's actually pretty difficult to move across the multiverse in the MCU thus far, and for those in the 616 universe America is basically the only real option.
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I wonder what was different in 838 that made Ultron work as intended? Presumably Loki still attacked Earth and motivated Stark to build a suit of armor around the world, and Hydra still stole the scepter and gave Wanda powers. Maybe 838 Vision took over the Ultron bots after Sokovia? Or maybe Ultron never turned evil, but then how did Wanda get from a European Hydra base to an American suburb? Is Pietro still alive?
Multiverses are fun!
Multiverses are fun!
Maybe because they have smartest man in the world Reed in 838 universe
The 616 will have its own illuminati eventually.
The illuminati are supposed to be a troubled bunch and not as immune to fault as they think they are. It was a really good interpretation of what the group would look like in another universe.
Or Ultron was built by Hank Pym correctly
I think the "where's Tony Stark?" question is the biggest one in 838 - most of the other characters you can explain as being off-world (Thor, the Guardians) or not being "leader" types (Hulk, Widow, Hawkeye, Ant-Man, so on), but it's tough to imagine a world where the Illuminati exists, he's an active hero, and he's not a part of it. And so many events in the MCU spill out of the various things that Stark fucked with.
Did he die at some point? Turn evil? Never born, or never became Iron Man? On sabbatical? There is that one extra chair at the end...
"What's Wakanda up to?" is the other big one, but I'd assume they're probably in a Cold War with whatever power structure the Illuminati has set up.
Did he die at some point? Turn evil? Never born, or never became Iron Man? On sabbatical? There is that one extra chair at the end...
"What's Wakanda up to?" is the other big one, but I'd assume they're probably in a Cold War with whatever power structure the Illuminati has set up.
Earth-199999, but this was never mentioned in the films and was created to contextualize the MCU within the comics' multiverse. This film makes it pretty clear that the films ignore this context and do not consider themselves beholden to any multiversal world building in the comics.
Yo this movie was DAMN good. Better than anything prior. It's like the opposite of No Way Home in a dark way.
I avoided leaks and was surprised at Reed Richard's and Xavior. OMFG! DaYUM.
Sadly they had a bad time. Wanda is TOO OP. I think something will need to be done about that lol. (Maybe moot by now)
Ok can someone explain why Strange 838 was executed? I mean he was dream walking doing exactly what? Was it the 3rd eye evil one who he mind controlled and caused an incursion there? But I understood they had to axe him because he used the book or some shit. That I need explanation.
I avoided leaks and was surprised at Reed Richard's and Xavior. OMFG! DaYUM.
Sadly they had a bad time. Wanda is TOO OP. I think something will need to be done about that lol. (Maybe moot by now)
Ok can someone explain why Strange 838 was executed? I mean he was dream walking doing exactly what? Was it the 3rd eye evil one who he mind controlled and caused an incursion there? But I understood they had to axe him because he used the book or some shit. That I need explanation.
Vishawn when he sees Wanda again
If they never used the mind stone then Ultron works as intended.
Based on Strange's little "chat" with Mordo when they were in the room alone together, I almost have the feeling Mordo used dark magic or even the Darkhold itself to manipulate the Illuminati in that universe to kill Strange so he could assume Sorcerer Supreme.
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