Do you think there is a good argument to be made that Trump will be a long-term net positive for the country / world?

[Orb]

I understand the thread title probably touches a nerve for many, but it's the best way I know how to put it. Hear me out, please. First, disclaimers:

• Trump is bad. He's an awful human and definitely in the running for the worst president we've ever had. He has no redeeming qualities. I hate everything he's done. I hate him as a person. I understand that he has hurt people and put people in danger and gotten people killed through action and inaction. I cannot state enough how much I absolutely loathe him and everything he stands for. This is not a "is Trump secretly good????" thread. It's a thread about the real-world outcomes of what comes in the wake of Trump's unquestionable badness.
• I'm not even sure I myself would argue strongly in favor of what I'm proposing in this thread. It may be too early to tell if any of this is true, and it's probably impossible to do the calculus on the ultimate harm versus good, even if you believe in that kind of moral and ethical approach to the world. Some of this is based on feeling and is impossible to really measure.

That being said, here's what I've been mulling over lately...

First, I believe that Trump's presidency and all the things he has done and said during his time in office have seemingly made a lot more people aware, interested, and involved in politics. I think his time in power has helped to make a lot of people be less complacent about what goes on in politics and the world in general. I believe he has radicalized a lot of people in opposition to him. Seeing marches and protests and discourse go on that I never really saw before under other similarly awful Republican presidents made me believe that all of Trump's bad may have been met with some positive outcomes on the opposing side.

Second, seeing what is happening now with Trump's tantrum over losing re-election is what really has me thinking there might be an argument to be made here. If he can drag enough of his red hat army down with his sinking ship, if he can fracture the Republican Party into something that is irreparable or less harmful, I think there's also an end positive to that. And I think it's likely, though not guaranteed.

So with those two big points, do you believe there is any argument to be made that ultimately, weighing the positive outcomes with the negative ones, that there is some "cosmic balance" that puts Trump's presidency as a net positive?

Again, I'm not even sure if I myself believe this. I typically don't subscribe to the kind of utilitarian ethics that says 10 points of good "outweighs" 9 points of bad. I don't think you can really put a value on the human cost of what Trump has done. But I feel like there are some people out there who might believe this is possible on some really long timescale, especially if the negative effects Trump's implosion might have on the GOP prove to be significant and long-lasting.

Maybe it's not a simple yes or no and the answer is way more complicated than that. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

 

[Deleted member 8468]

Disinformation and division aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Trump is a symptom of our disease, and won't be the catalyst to fix it.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

No. There is no good argument that Trump is good for literally anything.

 

[Trouble]

Accelerationism is bullshit.

Click to shrink...

This right here.

 

[mael]

Accelerationism is bullshit.

 

[Rhete]

If the election had been a complete rejection of republicans and the country tilted left for the rest of our lives, maybe. But it wasn't. It was a rejection of trump specifically while democrats lost ground overall.

 

[djkimothy]

No. Accelerationism is not a good reason for his shenanigans.

And have fun with your Supreme court.

 

[Aaronrules380]

It seems kind of pointless and stupid to try make this claim when his presidency isn't even over yet. Like I'd be willing to bet a good portion of people who got interested in politics because of Trump would just stop caring once more normal politicians are in charge again

 

[Orb]

Accelerationism is bullshit.

Click to shrink...

I don't really see this as an accelerationist argument. I'm not saying "we should have elected Trump because we have to burn everything down to rebuild it." I am glad Trump lost re-election. But he won the first time, and I'm pondering whether we could see some long-term net good as a result.

Like I'd be willing to bet a good portion of people who got interested in politics because of Trump would just stop caring once more normal politicians are in charge again

Click to shrink...

This is definitely one of the strongest counters to this potential argument.

 

[Deleted member 13101]

It is in fact simultaneously easily measurable, and immeasurable. People I know died of covid without the benefit of federal assistance, a medical strategy, or presidential encouragement of taking precautions and keeping others safe.

So, since we have been robbed of so many good people in our lives, there is no cosmic balance here. I don't expect this thread to last very long.

 

[Lotus]

No. There is no good argument that Trump is good for literally anything.

Click to shrink...

I feel that it is hugely insensitive to even pose the question. Nothing is worth the monstrosity that is Trump.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I don't see how you can possibly say this when a look at his environmental deregulation is going to accelerate global warming even more.

 

[Deleted member 31923]

No. Trump opened the door for fascism in America and the idea that facts and reality don't matter, everything is fake news except what the orange fuhrer says. He has perfectly setup a "smart Trump" to finish the job. If that doesn't happen, we will be lucky, but the fact that the danger now exists means his impact will never be positive. And don't forget the 6-3 Supreme Court. That's long-term damage that will take decades to recover from unless we get court packing.

 

[entremet]

No.

Outside of partisan politics, Trump still followed the imperialist mandate that most Presidents have followed. Bombing brown people, starving the rest with immoral sanctions, supporting thugs and strongmen.

That's not even domestic.

 

[Aaronrules380]

No. Trump opened the door for fascism in America and the idea that facts and reality don't matter, everything is fake new except what the orange fuhrer says. He has perfectly setup a "smart Trump" to finish the job. If that doesn't happen, we will be lucky, but the fact that the danger now exists means his impact will never be positive. And don't forget the 6-3 Supreme Court. That's long-term damage that will take decades to recover from unless we get court packing.

Click to shrink...

Yep. We can see the things he's already done that we know will have major negative consequences long term, whereas the OP's arguement is based on vague and unsubstantiated ideas of changed behavior that have yet to actually prove themselves to be real let alone bear any fruit.

 

[mael]

I don't really see this as an accelerationist argument. I'm not saying "we should have elected Trump because we have to burn everything down to rebuild it." I am glad Trump lost re-election. But he won the first time, and I'm pondering whether we could see some long-term net good as a result.

Click to shrink...

Still no,
there's 3 supreme court places stolen and the US will have to deal with that shit for decades.
And that's without the normalization of white supremacy and all the other shit.
There is no net positive to having more than 240k American citizen dying for no reason as well if you need to ask as well.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Fuck no. Trump brought us to precipice. This election barely stopped us from going over and in no way was it a full on rejection of the idea. It's easy for me to imagine us jumping right off the cliff as soon as 2024.

As has been said many times, the next Trump will be just as evil, but not nearly as stupid. There are still a lot of dark times ahead.

 

[HylianSeven]

250k Americans have died due to his negligence of something he was warned about months before it even got really bad in China. There's no bringing them back.

You don't even need to look at anything else to say that he's absolutely a negative.

 

[cursed knowledge]

i see what you mean and while yes, more people are politically aware right now, trump has indirectly (maybe directly?) been responsible for a lot of deaths

so nah

 

[ClickyCal']

Likely 150,000 more Americans (at least) have been killed by COVID than if Hillary was elected.

That isn't even touching on every single other person killed or tortured because of him.

 

[Nepenthe]

It's nice to have these hypothetical conversations in the comfort of an online bubble.

But I challenge you instead to host this with a person who lost someone to family separation at the border, or LGBT suicide, or police brutality, or covid, or our pulling out of Syria, or our chumminess with dictators, and then get back to us if you think Trump was a net positive. "We fractured the Republican party though!"

For fuck's sake. Sometimes y'all really don't know how to show empathy.

 

[captmcblack]

Every time this argument comes up in some form, it's wrong.

In no way was this a net positive for America or the world, unless there's a long view of "well, hurting an empire is always best for everyone"...in which case, I would prefer that to be the thread's concept!

 

[mael]

i see what you mean and while yes, more people are politically aware right now, trump has indirectly (maybe directly?) been responsible for a lot of deaths

so nah

Click to shrink...

They'll go to sleep as soon as Trump is out of sight.
Look at the amount of shit that needed to happen to have 2018 election turn the way it did.

 

[Dyle]

In order to say that a current leader could realistically have a net positive effect, you would want to point to a historic figure who saw a similar effect, to demonstrate that such a thing is plausible. And I really, really don't think you want to go down that wormhole.

 

[Scuffed]

No chance. His way will be carried on through his dumbass kids. The Trumps will be the new big political family and thier influence will negatively affect so many things to come. Just the war on masks alone that he perpetuated to the entire world will forever endanger everyone against any new pathogen that strikes the planet.

 

[shnurgleton]

a period of abysmal, destructive leadership demonstrating that good leadership is important is neither necessary nor desirable

 

[Orb]

Still no,
there's 3 supreme court places stolen and the US will have to deal with that shit for decades.
And that's without the normalization of white supremacy and all the other shit.
There is no net positive to having more than 240k American citizen dying for no reason as well if you need to ask as well.

Click to shrink...

I guess that's the argument I'm getting at though, something on the decades-long time scale. Irreparable harm has been inflicted, no doubt. I don't question that. You can't bring all the people dead back to life. But I'm wondering if there's anyone that would be willing to argue for the long time-scale. Not four years or even ten years down the road, but 50 or 100 years. Is there anyone that would look to the last four years and say that it's going to have us end up in an ultimately better place that far down the road than we would have been if "politics as usual" just continued to happen over and over again in an endless cycle.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

People stop caring pretty quickly when things are "normal," and the right is quick to forget the sins of the past Republican president. See: 2010 Midterms.

Also, 268,000 Americans are dead in a very preventable pandemic inside the US.

 

[Skytylz]

We didn't even crush him in the election. If democrats had got 55+ senate seats, expanded the house majority, and taken a bunch of state legislatures, then maybe it could have been, but we didn't. Sweeping reform won't happen.

 

[Strike]

Nope. Some of that shit can't be undone and it appears that a lot of people haven't learned anything.

 

[Masterz1337]

The only good thing, which James Comey described in his book is that Trump is a forest fire, burning down everything that needs to go so new things can grow in their places.

As bad as these 4 years have been, it has galvanized people across the country to be more politically active, more informed, and no one is under the impression anymore that politics don't matter. The effect of Trump is an America that is far more politically active, and that based on 2018 and 2020 is only a good thing.

 

[ClickyCal']

I guess that's the argument I'm getting at though, something on the decades-long time scale. Irreparable harm has been inflicted, no doubt. I don't question that. You can't bring all the people dead back to life. But I'm wondering if there's anyone that would be willing to argue for the long time-scale. Not four years or even ten years down the road, but 50 or 100 years. Is there anyone that would look to the last four years and say that it's going to have us end up in an ultimately better place that far down the road than we would have been if "politics as usual" just continued to happen over and over again in an endless cycle.

Click to shrink...

Idk, let me use my time machine really quick to go check 2100.

 

[teruterubozu]

Hell no. The bar has been set so low for the office of the President. We're fucked for generations.

 

[mael]

I guess that's the argument I'm getting at though, something on the decades-long time scale. Irreparable harm has been inflicted, no doubt. I don't question that. You can't bring all the people dead back to life. But I'm wondering if there's anyone that would be willing to argue for the long time-scale. Not four years or even ten years down the road, but 50 or 100 years. Is there anyone that would look to the last four years and say that it's going to have us end up in an ultimately better place that far down the road than we would have been if "politics as usual" just continued to happen over and over again in an endless cycle.

Click to shrink...

And still the answer is no.
Look at the last turning point : Bush/Gore.
Is the US really much better after 8 years of Bush and an unnecessary war just because we got Obama and a slight improvment on healthcare along with it?
Are we closer to taking climate change seriously than we were in 2000?!

 

[Trey]

This will never be a "good" argument, because accelerationism relies on impossible to verify variables wherein their origins cannot be traced, as you point out in your second bullet point.

I'm not sure the numbers will bear out that people are more active in politics moreso than we witnessed that people were simply made more aware of it. Mobilizing new voters is an ever occurring state, which would happen whether Trump existed or not. And more importantly, how much of this increased political activity will confer a more widespread understanding of the civics underpinning our sociopolitical landscape? Because the way I see it, the harm Trump has wrought on the trust in institutions and how people engage with information has been devastating.

 

[djplaeskool]

Imma need a big-ass crystal ball for that one, Nostradamus.
The core principles and institutions of the US have been damaged and there is no projection that could relay just how long it will take to stabilize and get to a point where we could look back and say the acceleration of planet-killing deregulation, the unending hyper-political brinksmanship, the premature deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans, and the near collapse of the Republic was "worth it"

 

[Deleted member 1248]

*laughs in climate change*

 

[mael]

The only good thing, which James Comey described in his book is that Trump is a forest fire, burning down everything that needs to go so new things can grow in their places.

As bad as these 4 years have been, it has galvanized people across the country to be more politically active, more informed, and no one is under the impression anymore that politics don't matter. The effect of Trump is an America that is far more politically active, and that based on 2018 and 2020 is only a good thing.

Click to shrink...

Fuck that noise, the same was said after the Bush years, look where we are now.
I would bet some good cash that people will go back to sleep on political issues in 2 years if even that.

 

[Necromanti]

Not if you're even remotely on the left.

 

[Deleted member 5127]

No, if anything accelerationism is causing more damage.

 

[Riskbreaker]

What the flying fuck is wrong with some of you people?

What were you thinking making this thread. This is peak white nonsense. Fuck all of the people Trump has hurt, fuck the dead from this pandemic, at least he what, fractured the republican party?

Jesus Christ.

 

[Orb]

It's nice to have these hypothetical conversations in the comfort of an online bubble.

But I challenge you instead to host this with a person who lost someone to family separation at the border, or LGBT suicide, or police brutality, or covid, or our pulling out of Syria, or our chumminess with dictators, and then get back to us if you think Trump was a net positive. "We fractured the Republican party though!"

For fuck's sake. Sometimes y'all really don't know how to show empathy.

Click to shrink...

The empathy is in having this argument in a place where I can lay out my entire argument, say exactly why I think Trump is bad, and have an open place for discussing a hypothetical idea that I'm not even sure I believe, than to go up to an LGBT person on the street, for example, and say "Hey do you think Trump is good, actually?"

I tried really hard to present this discussion in the best way I possibly could while still discussing it at all. I don't think having these discussions should be off the table as long as we approach them with care. And I tried to do that the best I could.

I hurt for the people that Trump has hurt. I really, really do. I hate the man and all he has done.

 

[Siman shinsafe]

Nonsense.

 

[Aaronrules380]

This type of thinking is like if you look at the protests following a big school shooting and say "well maybe it's a good thing those kids died because now people will finally address the issue and we can move forward" except inevitably nothing will actually change and even the protests will die down in a week or two once the event is no longer fresh in people's minds

 

[teruterubozu]

The empathy is in having this argument in a place where I can lay out my entire argument, say exactly why I think Trump is bad, and have an open place for discussing a hypothetical idea that I'm not even sure I believe, than to go up to an LGBT person on the street, for example, and say "Hey do you think Trump is good, actually?"

I tried really hard to present this discussion in the best way I possibly could while still discussing it at all. I don't think having these discussions should be off the table as long as we approach them with care. And I tried to do that the best I could.

I hurt for the people that Trump has hurt. I really, really do. I hate the man and all he has done.

Click to shrink...

So it's just a hypothetical thinking exercise? How neat.

 

[Orb]

What the flying fuck is wrong with some of you people?

What were you thinking making this thread. This is peak white nonsense. Fuck all of the people Trump has hurt, fuck the dead from this pandemic, at least he what, fractured the republican party?

Jesus Christ.

Click to shrink...

I said multiple times that I don't even think I'd make the argument myself. I just wanted people's thoughts on the issue. Maybe just to make me see how wrong I am for even the fleeting thought.

 

[Deleted member 31923]

Fuck no. Trump brought us to precipice. This election barely stopped us from going over and in no way was it a full on rejection of the idea. It's easy for me to imagine us jumping right off the cliff as soon as 2024.

As has been said many times, the next Trump will be just as evil, but not nearly as stupid. There are still a lot of dark times ahead.

Click to shrink...

The best analogy for the election was driving off the cliff full speed like Thelma and Louise if Trump had won. But since Biden won, we backed up maybe 50 feet from the cliff and it's unclear which direction we go next. But 74 million Americans got a taste of fascism and voted for more of it, and if they can get more people to join them, we are screwed.

 

[PyroPaperPlanes]

With how close the last vote ended up being and the uprise of right-winged politics pervading other countries in the past few years and the overall lack of a response despite all of this... no, I can't agree. Maybe if the Democrats go into full gear and somehow manage to evict all the majority politicians that are purposefully abusing the system to their own gains and are able to fix the SC...

Basically, ask me again in four years time. If the US is back in a positive place by then, I might come around to agree.

One thing's absolutely for sure: I wish that Trump was never president.

 

[Nepenthe]

The empathy is in having this argument in a place where I can lay out my entire argument, say exactly why I think Trump is bad, and have an open place for discussing a hypothetical idea that I'm not even sure I believe, than to go up to an LGBT person on the street, for example, and say "Hey do you think Trump is good, actually?"

I tried really hard to present this discussion in the best way I possibly could while still discussing it at all. I don't think having these discussions should be off the table as long as we approach them with care. And I tried to do that the best I could.

I hurt for the people that Trump has hurt. I really, really do. I hate the man and all he has done.

Click to shrink...

To be fair and amend my original post some, this forum is filled with minorities that have been hurt one way or another by Trump's actions. We're not really inseparable due to the presence of a keyboard, so in "anonymous" spaces like this, you actually can't assume you are having these kinds of discussions in places where LGBT people don't exist so you can run your hypotheticals about how Trump's actions- including the anti-LGBT ones- may have been great in the long run without the risk of hurting others. My ultimate sentiment, however is that this isn't really a discussion that begs for nuance, no more than "at least we got advancements in medical science and Fanta out of Nazi Germany, amirite?" It is plainly clear that whatever benefits have been had by a period of horrific governmental rule are not enough to really counter the lives lost and the damage wrought, and that ultimately the conversation serves to do little more than to give Trump credit he doesn't deserve and make small little in-roads for whatever alt-right trolls and undercover conservatives are browsing right now.

 

[The Albatross]

I think there's 250,000 Americans we should ask if -- long term -- Trump has been good for them.

But oddly they won't answer the phone?