Yes, I think there is enough "the end justifies the means" in politics, enough abandonment of principles for expediency.
I'm not for the President being above the law, which a failure to impeach absolutely indicates that he is.
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Do you think the US democrats should attempt to impeach Trump based on the Mueller report?
- Thread starter Menelaus
- Start date
Yes, I think there is enough "the end justifies the means" in politics, enough abandonment of principles for expediency.
I'm not for the President being above the law, which a failure to impeach absolutely indicates that he is.
There is no technically impeach. The House impeaches and that's it man.
All the kids who flunked civics are the ones hand wringing about not having the votes in the Senate.
This is about impeachment as clearly stated in the OP.
You have been insulting me acting like I'm some moron, don't even try to spin this the other way around. You're acting like I'm fucking stupid. Get a grip.
one Angle of this I fear, is trump actually getting ousted and literally setting a fire to a potential "cold civil war". His base is rabid. I'd like to see his defeat in an election of 2020, not at a time where it could further divide the country.
There is a bigger game that needs to be played here. One that doesn't involve democrats or republicans and their pathetic political football. That game is the unity of an entire nation and the rise of fair rights for everyone no matter their color, gender, religion, etc.
There is a bigger game that needs to be played here. One that doesn't involve democrats or republicans and their pathetic political football. That game is the unity of an entire nation and the rise of fair rights for everyone no matter their color, gender, religion, etc.
Impeachment without removal is useless because all the House will do is stir up the Republican base.
Copying over from PoliERA-
This is the correct line to be taking right now. You have to play "hard to get" here to go through the political theatre of "we didn't want to but have no other choice", even if you actively believed from the start you should do it.
I'm coming around to the idea that Dems have
Yeah, I think this is the right next step.
Stop fucking caring about tHe rEpUbLiCaN bAsE. They will be riled up by literally anything no matter what and by saying we can't do anything because of that you're already handing them a win. They're not even large enough to win the election for Trump anyways. It's beyond stupid.
How many fucking times does this have to be spelled out for people.
Absolutely, yes. There is plenty in the Mueller report to justify impeachment; in a just world (not ours) he'd almost certainly be removed from office. Put him in a position where he has to give sworn testimony. He'll perjure himself so fast it might even give pause to the Fox News crew.
Yes, though I'd throw Peurto Rico in there as an impeachable offense too. And seperating families, leading to severe trauma and death among their children while imprisoned. I'm sure I could make one hell of a list of offenses that were outside of the Mueller investigation.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be fair, mind you. Trump would deserve it. I just don't think it'll pay.
The republican base is already all stirred up.
This is the chance to paint Trump as the criminal that he is, for every other voter out there. Democrats have the ability to keep slamming the news cycle with impeachment hearings and investigations all justified by the impartial Mueller report.
Impeachment doesn't mean you take him out of office. It's step 1. And not impeaching absolutely gives ammo to Republicans. How the hell do people not see this? If you take no action you are letting them claim the whole thing was a sham and they'll yammer on and on how Democrats wasted time and money on a witch hunt. They were literally doing this all last month when they thought they were in the clear, why on earth do you think that would stop if they decide to agree with the Republican spin that he's innocent?
Yeah, waiting to talk to Mueller is fine.
You seem to be confusing my disagreement with your views with an attack on you.
I'm talking policy and political reality. Not really interested in the latter.
And where is the bolded even coming from?
You don't see how the above two quotes convey that?
Heck yeah you go for it. At the very least you've gotta put a stake in the ground that this stuff cannot continue beyond Trump. Failure or not, presidents in the future cannot behave this way.
Before the Mueller report came out I shared the general argument against impeachment -- that if it had no feasible path to removal of the President in the Senate because of politics, there was no point.
After seeing it, my opinion has changed. Even if politics may end up impeding the right conclusion, there is a lot that Mueller and his team opened up that should be Congress' responsibility to follow up on. And there is a non-zero chance that whatever gets dragged into the light of day may actually lead to the Senate entering play. (Granted, at least right now I do think that chance is still pretty close to zero.)
Clinton's impeachment and the reversal effect are not a given for how things are going to go in 2020. The circumstances are different and how the public feels about this President is different. The Kavanaugh hearings sure didn't lead to any measurable reversal effect in the midterms, for example. The public still had a pretty strong, if polarized, opinion that investigations should continue leading up to this report being unveiled--despite Barr's summary causing the Trump administration and congressional Rs to take an early victory lap, it didn't move hearts in either direction. I think the report makes a strong case for the the impeachment process to start. Convicting the President or not is a question we can look at after we see if we can answer more of the questions the Mueller Report raised.
After seeing it, my opinion has changed. Even if politics may end up impeding the right conclusion, there is a lot that Mueller and his team opened up that should be Congress' responsibility to follow up on. And there is a non-zero chance that whatever gets dragged into the light of day may actually lead to the Senate entering play. (Granted, at least right now I do think that chance is still pretty close to zero.)
Clinton's impeachment and the reversal effect are not a given for how things are going to go in 2020. The circumstances are different and how the public feels about this President is different. The Kavanaugh hearings sure didn't lead to any measurable reversal effect in the midterms, for example. The public still had a pretty strong, if polarized, opinion that investigations should continue leading up to this report being unveiled--despite Barr's summary causing the Trump administration and congressional Rs to take an early victory lap, it didn't move hearts in either direction. I think the report makes a strong case for the the impeachment process to start. Convicting the President or not is a question we can look at after we see if we can answer more of the questions the Mueller Report raised.
No. I don't see personal insult there. At all. When I say I can't nor have the inclination after attempting to explain my position previously that means I'm hurling personal insults at you?
Do you teach yoga? Cause...
(And no, me posting this image as a response isn't a slur or insult. It's to convey that's one hell of a stretch. Don't get in your feelings cause we disagree and start hurling insults.)
I stand by what I said. It's like folks learned jack shit since 2016. Talking bout giving this dude another 4 years on principle. No way, lol. Win.
There needs to be a universal outcry that the Mueller report hasn't produced, so no. Not right now, at least.
They need to conduct further investigations. They need to get testimony from the people Mueller didn't. That will put them into 2020, most likely, but it's still important. I would be satisfied if Trump was impeached and pending a trial in the Senate when he loses the election in 2020.
Here's the thing. The type of person who comprises his base is a coward.
Everyone talking about his 'base' is totally missing the point. Democratic base is voting, his base is voting.
You don't want to continually attack him if it isn't going to actually oust him because that makes him look sympathetic to people OUTSIDE of his base. You know, the ~70k people that swung the election in the handful of states that matter.
Play the long game, paint him as someone who is unhinged (because he definitely is) and don't let him talk about being treated unfairly by Dems.
You don't want to continually attack him if it isn't going to actually oust him because that makes him look sympathetic to people OUTSIDE of his base. You know, the ~70k people that swung the election in the handful of states that matter.
Play the long game, paint him as someone who is unhinged (because he definitely is) and don't let him talk about being treated unfairly by Dems.
I think they should impeach him to make an example (as there's no way the Senate will go ahead with it unless Trump's approval ratings plummet and stand to negatively impact GOP electability) but at least the House Democrats know they tried and upheld their constitutional duty.
I would think Senate Republicans would realise that letting Trump get away with so much would basically set a precedent for the next Democratic president to do the same but I think they're too worried about the backlash from his base on top off the fact that most of them are spineless and despicable anyway.
2020 Democratic Candidates shouldn't focus too much on impeachment though as it might make it look like they can't beat him on their own electability and campaigning.
I would think Senate Republicans would realise that letting Trump get away with so much would basically set a precedent for the next Democratic president to do the same but I think they're too worried about the backlash from his base on top off the fact that most of them are spineless and despicable anyway.
2020 Democratic Candidates shouldn't focus too much on impeachment though as it might make it look like they can't beat him on their own electability and campaigning.
Not really, no. People conflating this situation with Clinton's impeachment. Some people saying there's no point with the current Senate. They are reasons....but they're not very good or they're very narrowly focused.
Do I think he will be impeached? Nope. Should that stop them from proceeding? Also nope.
If they do not proceed then history will not look kindly, and it sends the wrong message for the future.
Edit: And good for Elizabeth Warren yet again for knowing what is right.
If they do not proceed then history will not look kindly, and it sends the wrong message for the future.
Edit: And good for Elizabeth Warren yet again for knowing what is right.
Not just her but several other like AOC and Ilhan
To think the country was more united right after the fucking Civil War and impeaching Andrew Johnson.
When is Trump's base not riled up on some manufactured bullshit? Using his base as an excuse for inaction is a gutless move. Maybe democrats should start thinking more about their base?
She always knows what's up.
She always knows what's up.
They understand. It's just concern trolling and fear mongering tactic. They know what they're doing.
Cross-posting from PoliEra:
I was entirely on-board the "don't bother with impeachment because it'll fail in the Senate" train until the report was released. The fact that this motherfucker wasn't successful at obstructing justice doesn't mean he should get a free pass for trying to multiple times. Dems need to send a message that no one is above the law, and doing nothing basically says its okay for future Presidents to behave this way with zero consequences.
Plus, if impeachment proceedings happen, then every single time Trump tried to obstruct justice by trying to harm the Mueller investigation will be aired multiple times and publicly for everyone to see. Of course then if/when the articles of Impeachment are approved and sent off to the Senate, I doubt it ever even gets to a trial (unless by law it has to, I'm not sure).
I was entirely on-board the "don't bother with impeachment because it'll fail in the Senate" train until the report was released. The fact that this motherfucker wasn't successful at obstructing justice doesn't mean he should get a free pass for trying to multiple times. Dems need to send a message that no one is above the law, and doing nothing basically says its okay for future Presidents to behave this way with zero consequences.
Plus, if impeachment proceedings happen, then every single time Trump tried to obstruct justice by trying to harm the Mueller investigation will be aired multiple times and publicly for everyone to see. Of course then if/when the articles of Impeachment are approved and sent off to the Senate, I doubt it ever even gets to a trial (unless by law it has to, I'm not sure).
I just don't understand why Dems make it so difficult.
Bring Mueller in front of Congress and let him speak. Then bring Don Mcgahn in front of Congress under oath live and TV and let him tell the world what the president told him to do several time. Then impeach him the next day.
Bring Mueller in front of Congress and let him speak. Then bring Don Mcgahn in front of Congress under oath live and TV and let him tell the world what the president told him to do several time. Then impeach him the next day.
Let me ask something, if winning at all costs is the most important when. Does that calculation change. If we win in 2020 do we then risk losing again by reversing policies that Trump voters like or do we continue caging children, continue the Transgender ban in the military, continue our exit from the Paris agreement, hell, do we even pursue Healthcare reform or any of our more progressive agenda? Or do we instead focus on winning in 2022?
At some point winning, constantly or not, is useless without actually exerting your political power, heck, what's even the point of political power if not to use it?
At some point winning, constantly or not, is useless without actually exerting your political power, heck, what's even the point of political power if not to use it?
Cowards can still cause loss of life. Dramatic? Sure. Still true.
This might be the most dangerous thing I've heard on Resetera yet.
Edit: Terrible reply, Didnt add useful conversation. Apologies. If you hold power in this context, You are infact denying the other side from having it. This can sometimes be good enough to know that your opponent can't use it. Should you extend your will? Welcome to Political Football. More laws and Bills are not the solution. I do agree that the BS trump has enacted needs to be reversed.
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I think a couple more dominos need to fall before it becomes a viable move. The report's almost pushed it over the edge but Mueller needs to be interviewed publicly at the very least, even if that's only because of Barr's meddling obfuscating matters. The Dems are gonna have to be totally unified in carrying out the impeachment process so there needs to be a couple more headlines to get everyone on board.
But yeah the whole rile up his base thing thing is irrelevant since they'll come up with some more 'caravan' bullshit by 2020 anyway. Not sure how much rejecting impeachment will hurt GOP senators in the election but it might stain them effectively long term as the info and consequences drip out after the presidency ends.
But yeah the whole rile up his base thing thing is irrelevant since they'll come up with some more 'caravan' bullshit by 2020 anyway. Not sure how much rejecting impeachment will hurt GOP senators in the election but it might stain them effectively long term as the info and consequences drip out after the presidency ends.
I absolutely agree, get Mueller on record and get the underacted report at a minimum.
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What is this absurd idea that Trump wont scream from every single one of his rallies about the report come election time? The guy still talks about the inauguration crowds and that was plainly a lie. Democrats letting Trump get away with all the things outlined in the report only emboldens his talking point about the report completely clearing him.
That isn't to say scrap any backing behind healthcare initiatives or other strong policy positions but the idea that Trump's base is particular about when they rally behind Trump makes no sense.
That isn't to say scrap any backing behind healthcare initiatives or other strong policy positions but the idea that Trump's base is particular about when they rally behind Trump makes no sense.
With Trump presumably being required to testify under impeachment, how inevitable is a "You can't handle the truth!" moment?
His flaky memory, unwillingness to prepare, inability to NOT respond to accusations and criticism, limited grasp of what his legal authority actually is, willingness to throw allies under the bus, defensiveness, and limited attention span and stamina will leave him vulnerable to blurting something out, perhaps not incriminating but certainly morally and ethically reprehensible.
Goading him on by reminding of Hillary 11 hour congressional sessions would be easy if he started trying to wriggle out or limit time.
His flaky memory, unwillingness to prepare, inability to NOT respond to accusations and criticism, limited grasp of what his legal authority actually is, willingness to throw allies under the bus, defensiveness, and limited attention span and stamina will leave him vulnerable to blurting something out, perhaps not incriminating but certainly morally and ethically reprehensible.
Goading him on by reminding of Hillary 11 hour congressional sessions would be easy if he started trying to wriggle out or limit time.
Will the house intelligence committee get the unredacted report? If so looking forward to what the Dems on that committee think.
Dude the GOP create ammo out of thin air. They are masters of creating controversy out of nothing and if there isn't one, they will create a fake one.
If the Democrats do not charge or attempt to charge Trumps, they will get annihilated come election time. The GOP will rake them over the coal simply by saying and pushing the illegal spying BS conspiracy. And they would have even more support simply saying Obama and democrats spied on Trump and spent 30 millions of tax payers dollar and still didn't find shit.
Democrats : But the Mueller report!
Republican : Exactly the Mueller report that wasn't worth shit so you didn't even charge the president. You were in the wrong, you admit you spied, wasted 30 million, claim the President were helped by Russians but it didn't amount to anything.
Democrats : There were evidence in the Mueller report proving Trump tried to stop the investigation.
Republicans : Then why didn't you try to impeach him and bring that claim to the senate? If he broke the law, then why did you sit on your hands? Case closed. No collusion, no obstruction, and even you agreed to not charge the President.
Democrats : But but but....