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OP
OP
signal

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,196
The funny thing is that this room is identifiable as the Employee Room of the Honey Bee Inn... which is actually inaccessible in the game. The room's data is still there, though - here it is:

latest


Same curtains, same wallpaper, same chairs, etc. Not clear if this is supposed to be this room though or if they simply made the FMV after they decided to cut the room and reused an area that was half-complete.
Damn. Deep lore here. Wonder if it looks the same as the window Marlene looks out of, though I don't think you see the inside. Will go look 🤔
 

Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
8,944
Yea, seems they will flesh them out way more and then it will hit us harder.
That's what it seems like to me as well.

Given that the first game in this project will be set in Midgar, it looks like the primary thrust of the plot will be about the escalating war between AVALANCHE and Shinra. The Sector VII plate falling, coupled with the deaths of half of the AVALANCHE team, strikes me as a perfect "lowest point" at the end of the second act before the action kicks into high gear with the third act assault on the Shinra building.

Just a guess though. But I really don't see Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie surviving with what we've seen so far.
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie are being fleshed out more because 6 hours of material is being adapted into a (presumably) 30+ hour game lol. I still expect them to die 100%. And we'll still be expected to buy the Turk bromance later.
 
OP
OP
signal

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,196
That's what it seems like to me as well.

Given that the first game in this project will be set in Midgar, it looks like the primary thrust of the plot will be about the escalating war between AVALANCHE and Shinra. The Sector VII plate falling, coupled with the deaths of half of the AVALANCHE team, strikes me as a perfect "lowest point" at the end of the second act before the action kicks into high gear with the third act assault on the Shinra building.

Just a guess though. But I really don't see Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie surviving with what we've seen so far.
I can't handle losing so many friends along the way guys. Sticking with my made up theory until then ;_;
 

mute

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,091
I'd rather they didn't. The juxtaposition in tone is a good thing sometimes. Yakuza swings from serious business to looney all the time and people love it. I'd like to think a lot of the comedic scenes still make it in, and everything being 1000% more realistic looking will only make it better.
 
OP
OP
signal

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,196
I'd rather they didn't. The juxtaposition in tone is a good thing sometimes. Yakuza swings from serious business to looney all the time and people love it. I'd like to think a lot of the comedic scenes still make it in, and everything being 1000% more realistic looking will only make it better.
They can still be a bit comedic (to whatever minor level they were in the original) but do you think it makes sense from a player POV to have the party treat them the same way they do in the original after spending 30 hours (or however long) with the three avalanche member instead of two hours.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,892
It would be great if you could make certain decisions, and do certain side missions, and change the fate of some of the Avalanche gang. I want Jessie as a secret character, dammit! I miss secret characters!
 

mute

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,091
They can still be a bit comedic (to whatever minor level they were in the original) but do you think it makes sense from a player POV to have the party treat them the same way they do in the original after spending 30 hours (or however long) with the three avalanche member instead of two hours.
I'll preface this by saying I in no way think they will do this, but I really don't want "make sense" to be an end goal of the Remake. The original was a bonkers ass game, and I don't really want them thinking about "how does this make sense now that everything is pretty?". Instead, I'd rather they stick to the script, make it look gorgeous, and if it ends up being crazy on the other end or not making sense then so be it. Down to Earth is the last thing I want.

In reality it will end up somewhere in the middle, but I hope they keep the tone of the original, as much as possible. What little we have seen (like the gym squats) seems like they are in the right mind. If we stumble upon some Turks at a bar halfway through the second game and just stop to have a drink, that would be great IMO. They might as well by that point just lean in to how insignificant they are in the grand scheme of things. By some point there will have already been countless battles with them where they get defeated every time, there isn't much else for Cloud and co to do other than outright murder them.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
its the old anime trope famous because of vegeta.

But i think in the original game they dont become allies, but likeable yes, in the wutai scene the only reason they helped was because elena was there.
The thing of the turks to me is that they are tools, they dont have a morality per se, they obey shinra. They are like exclusive mercenaries no question asked.

But i think the remake needs to change some stuff, like the last encounter in the original is disappointing
 
OP
OP
signal

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,196
I'll preface this by saying I in no way think they will do this, but I really don't want "make sense" to be an end goal of the Remake. The original was a bonkers ass game, and I don't really want them thinking about "how does this make sense now that everything is pretty?". Instead, I'd rather they stick to the script, make it look gorgeous, and if it ends up being crazy on the other end or not making sense then so be it. Down to Earth is the last thing I want.

In reality it will end up somewhere in the middle, but I hope they keep the tone of the original, as much as possible. What little we have seen (like the gym squats) seems like they are in the right mind. If we stumble upon some Turks at a bar halfway through the second game and just stop to have a drink, that would be great IMO. They might as well by that point just lean in to how insignificant they are in the grand scheme of things. By some point there will have already been countless battles with them where they get defeated every time, there isn't much else for Cloud and co to do other than outright murder them.
I'm not really suggesting a more "down to Earth" experience, just theorizing changes that might make sense to go along with changes they have already made. They're already not sticking to the script by giving us (presumably) a lot more time with Biggs Wedge and Jessie, so making such alterations and keeping related stuff the same doesn't always play out well.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,809
Brazil
OUt of curiosity, what makes you think this? Nothing I've seen has hinted to me that those characters will survive this. The opposite, in fact. The increased focus on these characters seems to indicate that SquareEnix is going to play their deaths for as much emotional impact as possible.

For some seconds in the trailer, they were in parachutes on that moment with the Sector 7 tower, precisely moments before they would die in the original game. I feel like SE is trying to give us a hint there.

Also, the tone of the characters felt more silly somewhat (Probably because of their voice tone or some of their lines on the trailer). Of course in the original there's no voice action so it was something the player had to imagine, so maybe i'm just overeacting.
 
OP
OP
signal

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,196
For some seconds in the trailer, they were in parachutes on that moment with the Sector 7 tower, precisely moments before they would die in the original game. I feel like SE is trying to give us a hint there.

Also, the tone of the characters felt more silly somewhat (Probably because of their voice tone or some of their lines on the trailer). Of course in the original there's no voice action so it was something the player had to imagine, so maybe i'm just overeacting.
Yeah keep them alive. So I can brag if I'm right!
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,621
I hope the Turks were told to just let the fall happen and kill as many as possible to sow more hatred for avalanche then took it upon themselves to disobey orders and help some folk get out on the sly.

I feel that would help with the frenemy aspect. If not, have them go full villain the whole rip and change a few things
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,435
Keep everything the same, unless to improve pacing, or it might be problemactic or to make make more sense, like Cloud doesn't just let the turks run away, they explode a cave or something. Ignore spin off stuff, unless it's adding a few small forts or town from Crisis Core or Before Crisis to make the world more compact. ( Like the Midel and Wutai areas) I didn't like Genesis but it be cool to find and reconise his cave. just want my favourite moments recreated and to be the definitive version of the game.

I would change the scene where Don Corneo ties Elena up on a statue head, it's stupid that it only have happens to the woman turk.
 

Bulebule

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,805
Turks should be bad guys who do bad things all way through in the remake. If it means of destroying whole Sector 7 and killing people along with it, then so be it. I don't want any plot twist where people suddenly were evacuated or they were not in real danger all along. Make the deaths of those citizen an even stronger motivation to party to continue. The relationship between the party and Turks in the original felt like a joke suddenly anyway in 2nd disc, when they started being hesitant and feeling bad about things they did.
 

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,262
I think it's probably going to be pretty jarring to the people who played FFVII but didn't play the compilation games that the relationship with the Turks is gonna be more in line with the compilation games. Namely, don't expect them to go more villainous.

... I mean, I only played Crisis Core so that's my frame of reference. Not a flex, just a prediction. Years of labyrinthine FFVII lore and retcons coming to the public in a more mainstream remake
 

Lulu

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
26,680
In Before Crisis the 'original' pre-Barret Avalanche is based out of Wutai, and the Turks actually infiltrate the base, plant bombs there, and blow it up. So the connection has been established in the world before, but it's now being added to this new version of FF7's lore.

The whole Wutai story is interesting, as the original game doesn't really go into detail on it. All we know really is that Shinra wanted to build a reactor there, Wutai said no, and then the two went to war. Despite only being mentioned in passing the war is an important backdrop, because the war is where Aerith's mother's husband dies (so when she's waiting at the train station for him to return and discovers Aerith instead, it's from the Wutai war), it's key to pretty much everything about who Yuffie is, and it's also (in CC) one of Zack's greatest triumphs - he's basically the one to end the war.

The Wutai as shown in FF7 is a weird one, because though the game justifies it by saying that post-war, capitulated, the country is reduced to a tourist trap, it doesn't look like a country capable of going to war with Shinra, leave alone a war that'd force Shinra to conscript civilians like Elmyra's husband... even if it is producing ace ninjas like Yuffie. Between this and the line from the president in the trailer about "Wicked Wutai, our sworn enemy", it may be that in this version of the story the war isn't exactly over. If this is true it completely shifts Yuffie's story and motivation, however, as the whole reason she's out in the world stealing and stuff in the original game is because she left Wutai disgusted by her father's surrender to Shinra. So... hmm.
Super interesting stuff and yea I'm really interested to see how Wutai will be handled. I think it'll be the biggest change overall from the original.
 
Nov 23, 2017
4,996
In the main thread, I brought up my theory on how the second game ends with the Wutai war with Avalanche and Wutai losing against ShinRa. Now that it's been revealed that Barret is leading only a small rebel group and that the main Avalanche still exists, I buy it even more. In regards to the Turks, I think they will be more comedy-driven. That's just a vibe thing, though.
 

CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,636
Really interesting OP.

I actually read the title thinking "what? why?" and the OP proceeded to change my mind.

Something needs to change imo
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
I think it's probably going to be pretty jarring to the people who played FFVII but didn't play the compilation games that the relationship with the Turks is gonna be more in line with the compilation games. Namely, don't expect them to go more villainous.

... I mean, I only played Crisis Core so that's my frame of reference. Not a flex, just a prediction. Years of labyrinthine FFVII lore and retcons coming to the public in a more mainstream remake
in before crisis they become good guys with some morality (even if they kidnap/kill people) they want to protect the city, they fight with president shinra, they wanted to save cloud and zack, avalanche becomes responsible for the corel fire, and for many bad stuff.

I hope they ignore it.

edit: oh yeah, one hint that they are ignoring some of the compilation stuff is that Rude in the trailer doent know who cloud is, when in the compilation is clear that the turks knew who cloud and zack was.
 
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MrMegaPhoenix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
366
i wouldnt mind if they retconned it so that the turks were told that there was some sector override up there and so their mission was to enable that to keep avalanche from escaping. So all along they would know "escape within X minutes" on the helicopter because avalanche couldn't follow them, would be trapped and so shrina security forces could move in and arrest them.

what they wouldn't know is that President Shinra all along intended for its destruction and was easily able to enable it himself. So it puts the blame on him, it still makes the turks the antagonists here and yet it doesn't make them directly responsible for mass scale deaths. They would still follow shinra too since they are tight with Rufus and its easy to see him convincing them to help him.

I don't think they should evacuate all the citizens though. Its more impactful that the president of the company would destroy 1/8th of a city just to try and kill half a dozen terrorists. It shows that no bad avalanche's actions were (bombing a reactor that certainly killed innocent people), Shinra is several magnitudes worse.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
They shoot out a net for Rufus in Advent Children. Canon pure goodness.
oh yeah i was talking about it in a commentary above, before crisis is also canon, but they are not following the compilation that much only easter eggs, monster designs and some ideas it seems. While the ff7 og seems to be the base of the game.
like putting the blame on avalanche for barret's town destruction and he doesnt know, only to the turks and shinra to not look that evil or to make avalanche wants to destroy the world is very stupid.
In the site description it says barret's avalanche is the most agressive so it seems that they are ignoring this part of before crisis, THX GOD.
 
OP
OP
signal

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,196
oh yeah i was talking about it in a commentary above, before crisis is also canon, but they are not following the compilation that much only easter eggs, monster designs and some ideas it seems. While the ff7 og seems to be the base of the game.
like putting the blame on avalanche for barret's town destruction and he doesnt know, only to the turks and shinra to not look that evil or to make avalanche wants to destroy the world is very stupid.
In the site description it says barret's avalanche is the most agressive so it seems that they are ignoring this part of before crisis, THX GOD.
I was just joking in my reply screw AC lol. But really I meant in response to the person saying Turks can go full evil that I'd want to keep Elena and Tseng as not that literally just because I like them. Never cared much for Rude or Reno. Reno especially.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,435
I would mostly keep them the same, not all villians have to have cold personalities even if they're horrible people. Like the villians in a Kingsmen movie or Hans Landa or Hannibal. It makes you feel bad for liking them at times, but you still want them to be defeated. Conflicted fellings can make an engaging villian.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
The Turks become comic relief the moment you leave Midgar. Wouldn't be surprised if it happens here too especially considering what happens in Wutai.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,078
I'd rather they didn't. The juxtaposition in tone is a good thing sometimes. Yakuza swings from serious business to looney all the time and people love it. I'd like to think a lot of the comedic scenes still make it in, and everything being 1000% more realistic looking will only make it better.
Yakuza hasn't tried to redeem mass murderers of civilians or depicted said murderers in a goofy light.

What the Turks did in FFVII shoots them so far beyond redemption that I just don't get how anyone can not bat an eye at the game depicting them as chuckeheads.
 

mute

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,091
Yakuza hasn't tried to redeem mass murderers of civilians or depicted said murderers in a goofy light.

What the Turks did in FFVII shoots them so far beyond redemption that I just don't get how anyone can not bat an eye at the game depicting them as chuckeheads.
I have a hard time getting hung up on this in general or just thinking about it in this way because in both cases you yourself are playing the role of a mass murderer.
 

MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
2,456
I have a hard time getting hung up on this in general or just thinking about it in this way because in both cases you yourself are playing the role of a mass murderer.

Yeah, I feel like this take is kind of missing the point that FFVII was obviously going for a more grey depiction of morality in comparison to a lot of contemporary JRPGs.
You literally start the game off as a gruff merc who is willing to do a terrorist bombing in the planet's largest city just for some quick cash.

All the saving the world stuff comes later. Multiple party members have a past where they willingly and happily engaged and worked with Shinra.
Shinra didn't become evil overnight. The game even tells you in Rocket Town that they basically started off as a weapons manufacturer before discovering how profitable Mako energy was and only later rebranded themselves as a power company.

The Turks still do some fucked up stuff, but I think at this point most of the groups life experiences told them that they were just another cog in the corrupt and all-powerful corporate machine that is Shinra.
Not to mention the fact that they know first hand that it's the plot of the board members, as they overheard the entire plan from the air ducts.

Honestly, I think the original FMV does a great job showcasing that as well, with the final shot of President Shinra watching the destruction while listening to some classical music. Heh.
 

Philippo

Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
7,913
I don't think they need to "change" it, the implicit longer Part 1 will have Turks in a "villain" role for a longer period, and only have the become more chill in future episodes. Just Part 1 is enough for some of them to start questioning their position within Shinra and act upon that in Ep.2. I do expect them to be less than a joke like in the original, and more like Org. XIII where some of them are eeeevil and some (Reno) are just dumbasses.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,221
Given how everyone interacts after the plate drop, I always assumed that there were a very small number of casualties. Maybe they can turn the Turks full villian, but that seems unlikely given how much the fans like the Turks and their characterizations in the expanded stuff.

Maybe Biggs Wedge and Jessie survive this time, but the body count is a bit high so Reno/Rude are disillusioned and slowly start to turn neutral/good. I like the idea of making Reeve a Turk as well, would make sense if they kind of met up and started talking about how they hated being the bad guys. They would probably need to make Tseng and Elena more evil to compensate though
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,864
I have a hard time getting hung up on this in general or just thinking about it in this way because in both cases you yourself are playing the role of a mass murderer.
Fighting against a fascist company and committing killings is not the same as being a part of a fascist company death squad and participating in the deaths of tens of thousand of people