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Do you think people should be compensated for making stuff in Dreams?

  • Yes

    Votes: 129 10.1%
  • No

    Votes: 1,150 89.8%

  • Total voters
    1,280

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,264
Hey ERA.

You're looking great. You been hitting the gym or something?

That's great. Look, I wanted to talk about Dreams.

No, man, the game.

Every time a thread pops up, someone asks if creators will be compensated for their work.

I think the argument stems from one often levelled at companies who try to take advantage of people, often times professionals, getting them to work for 'exposure' in the form of a creative competition or summink.

Most people - again, I suspect creative professionals - think this is unfair and creators should be compensated for their effort.

I'm not so sure that particular argument applies here.

For strawma—-uh I mean starters, it seems to presume everyone is creative for compensation.

There is joy in the act of creation. It can be therapeutic. It can be cool to show off what you do and get a buzz off the praise. It can just be something to do that's a bit more worthwhile than nihilistically grinding shite out on Destiny 2 or whatever you play. I dunno, I'm not your goddamn biographer.

If your income is tied to your creativity (i.e. you're a jobbing artist or writer), that's one thing... though you should probably stop dicking around on Dreams and get back to the hustle

If you want to break into a creative industry, then Dreams is probably the wrong set of tools to reach that goal (though there is some limited potential there).

I dunno. Maybe you think Sony are profiting off of everyone's hard work by selling more copies or something? If it's getting people to be actively creative, especially those who may never have been able to before, I'm not against that either.

This isn't about me and my half-formed brain spaffings. What do YOU think?

Yeah. YOU.

Whatever your thoughts, rather than derail threads celebrating creations, I'm vainly hoping we can keep most (if not all) of the discussion here and also find out via the poll how many people believe Sony should be compensating creators.

Speak your brains, ERA. Speak them all over my eager little fizzog.
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
So... yes and no. There was a huge discussion around this with Project Spark on the MS side when it was going, but it never really made sense. I think there's something to be said about monetizing or rewarding play, but because there's no way to export outside of the game - this could only work in a Bethesda Creation Club way. That means this could only work IF Dreams were making a lot of money (and specifically from the creation of this content). As of now, that's not the case. That said, compensation doesn't have to be monetary necessarily. Before Spark went free, they would reward ppl who got attention with DLC or just with attention. And, it wouldn't be AS hard to implement a tipping system with paid currency to support favored creators. Much like how you buy bits and embers on Twitch and Mixer, to give to other people. Either that money gets cashed out, or just becomes PS points.

So no, I really don't think they should be compensated unless there's a business model for how MM can make money from creators creating. If they DO, however, then yes, it would be a good win-win.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,645
I think there should be an option in future to sell your stuff if you are so inclined.

People who want to spend a lot of time and have that be worth something to them materially can have the option, while people who want to make things for the fun of it can continue to do so.

Neither option should be mandated unless there are good reasons (eg no selling of stuff that is infringement on IP or other people's work etc).
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
No. The WHOLE point of the game is Media Molecule created what is essentially game creating software with the most user friendly tools, to allow people who dont normally create games but have always been curious to create various things. You start allowing people to charge money and in all likelyhood the thing dies quickly when nobody wants to pay to play the things that were the whole point of the game.

I see it more as a stepping stone for folks to go on and make other things or gain the confidence to dive into the industry proper.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,164
nope creators know the terms

i imagine at some point somebody will make a warcraft --> dota type 'reimagining' of sorts but that can be commercially/technically meted into its own game
 
OP
OP
Yossarian

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,264
Where are all the folk who derail Dreams threads about compensation...? 😂

So no, I really don't think they should be compensated unless there's a business model for how MM can make money from creators creating. If they DO, however, then yes, it would be a good win-win.

That's pretty reasonable.

I think there should be an option in future to sell your stuff if you are so inclined.

If that's an intention, I'm not sure this is the right set of tools for it. At least, not right now.
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,605
I think there should be a path to compensation. In my mind hitting a threshold of followers to have the option of submitting something for consideration for a 'Dreams store'.

Right now people are testing the limitations of the engine and tools by recreating things but it won't be long before you play something that feels like an Indie hit. When VR support comes I think it will happen a lot there too.

I don't like the idea of a creator investing in these tools, getting good at them, making something awesome and having to use a different engine and different tools to benefit from it financially.
 

EssBeeVee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,760
most are on twitch and they have subscribers. some set up donations and patron. and theres people who are supporting the streamer.
 

xxracerxx

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
31,222
I swear the end game for this entire endeavor will be Dreams on PC/PS5, along with a way to give creators some money.
 
OP
OP
Yossarian

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,264
I think there should be a path to compensation. In my mind hitting a threshold of followers to have the option of submitting something for consideration for a 'Dreams store'.

Right now people are testing the limitations of the engine and tools by recreating things but it won't be long before you play something that feels like an Indie hit. When VR support comes I think it will happen a lot there too.

I don't like the idea of a creator investing in these tools, getting good at them, making something awesome and having to use a different engine and different tools to benefit from it financially.

But then...

No. The WHOLE point of the game is Media Molecule created what is essentially game creating software with the most user friendly tools, to allow people who dont normally create games but have always been curious to create various things. You start allowing people to charge money and in all likelyhood the thing dies quickly when nobody wants to pay to play the things that were the whole point of the game.

I see it more as a stepping stone for folks to go on and make other things or gain the confidence to dive into the industry proper.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,105
Voted no, but I'm in no way opposed to Sony/MM working out some avenue by which creators can be compensated.

I just don't think anyone making stuff right now deserves more than they've been promised, which is nothing.
 

Outtrigger888

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,305
Most of the dreams made have various created items from other dreamers. How do you split money with some one that created the tree that you used?
 
Mar 11, 2019
549
No, I dont know why this keeps popping up, at most there can be an optional tipping system to support creators you like.

However MM is willing (if I recall from interviews) to let developers use their engine and release games with it outside of dreams. Also couple of months ago MM was hiring experienced artist/developers/dreams creators who would dedicate their time on making stuff within dreams.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,536
I don't think they should be, but I would like to see monetisation become a possibility in the longer term so long as it is done right. I would hate Dreams to fall into the trap that YouTube does with monetisation where shit algorithms are dictating what content becomes popular and clickbait rules the roost.

Fortunately MM have repeatedly indicated they want to allow dreams to exist outside of the 'walled garden', so monetisation will likely be a thing one day for the very best games. Until then I'm more than content to be patient and enjoy creation for creation's sake. Opening the door to monetisation in Dreams, or Dreams outside Dreams, is seriously non-trivial and opens up many cans of worms. It's going to take time.
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
Most of the dreams made have various created items from other dreamers. How do you split money with some one that created the tree that you used?
that too. Seems like a big headache as a whole. And even if you are going to make a system where only games whose creation is entirely original using your own assets and not using anything that could remotely lead to a lawsuit, you are now introducing a job necessity at MM where someone has to review every entry that someone wants to argue for monetization and make sure there is nothing that could get people sued.

I wouldnt mind a donation system being allowed in-game so folks can donate to their favorite creators, but asking for compensation for something specific turns into a nightmare legally.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,865
I don't understand this talk about compensation. If you want compensation you use tools that allows for that and you build experience in order to create the work you want.

Using those tools are considerably harder than using Dreams however. Dreams allows people to give a go at their creativity without being stonewalled by the amount of skills you have to earn in order to make them. It's just for fun. The idea of compensation just feeds into the narrative that every hobby needs to have a financial incentive, which in turn just depresses everything around money, and then ruins everything.

Dreams addresses the threshold of people who wants to make stuff without investing time and money. Maybe they will find that they want it to be their life goal and then enter the industry, maybe they just want to use it as some kind of design document for themselves of what they want to do with actual game tools.

There's plenty to do with Dreams as this tool for creativity in which the content is free and there is a community based on sharing free stuff. You talk money, you're losing far more than what you bargained for. Some stuff ought not be tied to dollars, especially when there are alternatives to build things for money that already exists.
 
Jun 26, 2018
3,829
I'm making dreams for fun, not for profit, if I ever want to try making money making this kind of stuff, I'll just go do it on the computer instead, but I'm not looking to do that, I just want to have fun creating and sharing things with other likeminded people
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,059
No.

bu all means start a youtube channel, Parecon etc if it's something you want to spend more time doing or making something out of it. And of course some of the things you learn will be useful for portfolio examples if you're looking for work, and maybe you transition to more professional tools like unreal and can sell something on steam.


but mostly just do it because you enjoy it.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,072
I don't wanna live in the dystopian future where the only time creativity happens is through monetary compensation, so no.
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
See now I'm curious if MM has any plans to create development software emulating Dreams so folks who got good at making games from this can now make their very own independent titles.
 

StudioTan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
I don't wanna live in the dystopian future where the only time creativity happens is through monetary compensation, so no.

Great, I'll tell all my artist and musician friends that wanting to be able to make a living from their art is a dystopian concept and they should just be happy that people even want to give it any attention at all.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,072
Great, I'll tell all my artist and musician friends that wanting to be able to make a living from their art is a dystopian concept and they should just be happy that people even want to give it any attention at all.

Jesus christ, I didn't say *all* creativity. What's with this bullshit all or nothing logic?

But fuck it, sure everything should be paid for. All hail Capitilism, where the mighty dollar rules and it's the only reason we do anything.
 

tyfon

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,680
Norway
No, monetisation just makes it driven towards making money/clickbaiting not having fun.
Edit: This goes for in-game things, if some creator wants to set up a patreon for their fans I have no issues with that.
 

DigSCCP

Banned
Nov 16, 2017
4,201
No.
This goes against the whole Dreams concept.
A tip option would be really cool but that's that.
If you want to make games and sell them there is a lot commercial tools/engines out there. Good luck with them.
 

Ryan.

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
12,884
Nah, plus Dreams really isn't anything new. It's just a more complex and powerful tool. We've seen map and game creators before with games like Warcraft, Far Cry, Halo, etc.

If they want to get their name out and even try to make money off it then maybe Youtube/Twitch content based around their creations would be the way to go.
 

StudioTan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
Jesus christ, I didn't say *all* creativity. What's with this bullshit all or nothing logic?

No, but you're basically implying that it's bad to even want the option for people to make money from their creations.

To be clear, Sony is under no obligation to have a monetization system for Dreams and I don't care either way. I just personally think they'd get more artists such as myself interested if there was.

If other people want to make stuff for free, more power to them.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,861
Mount Airy, MD
I think "should" is always a weird word to use in this conversations.

I think some number of people will end up making breaks in their career making shit in Dreams, as others have in other creative games (or ones that just allowed mods, like back in the days of huge FPS and RTS modding communities). Plenty of others will just make shit because they like making shit and that's enough for them.

I think anyone that goes into making stuff in a game like this with the mindset that they "should" get paid to do it is likely to have a bad time.
 

Loudninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,207
To made clear these are MM ambitions
GC: So will people be able to play any of these games outside of owning Dreams?
MH: At the moment you have to own Dreams to play it. Obviously, it's not just games, people can make films and things. But the big ambition that I would love to see is that people can make stuff that ends up coming out and going onto the PSN store and things like that. That's an obvious thing to push for really, so we're looking into that at the moment.
GC: And could they make money from that?
MH: Of course, yeah. That's the point. That's the ambition. There's a fine balance to keep there, between keeping that nice sort of sharing, collaborative thing going on and people making money.
metro.co.uk

Dreams review and interview – video game construction kit

GameCentral reviews the new game creation tool from the makers of LittleBigPlanet and talks to creative director Mark Healey about its future.
 

DigSCCP

Banned
Nov 16, 2017
4,201
Great, I'll tell all my artist and musician friends that wanting to be able to make a living from their art is a dystopian concept and they should just be happy that people even want to give it any attention at all.

You could actually tell your friends that if they want to make money outta of their art they can but also if they want to make for arts sake it's also posible. It's their choice.
MM is not putting a gun on creators and saying that they are not allowed to work with commercial tools you know that right ?
The dreamiverse has it own rules and if creators are willing to spend their time over there for whatever reasons they have its their own decision.
 

elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,812
Sure, I guess, but good luck figuring out a proper compensation model.

With people building on other people's work, things can get pretty dicey about who owns what part of what work.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,072
No, but you're basically implying that it's bad to even want the option for people to make money from their creations.

To be clear, Sony is under no obligation to have a monetization system for Dreams and I don't care either way. I just personally think they'd get more artists such as myself interested if there was.

If other people want to make stuff for free, more power to them.

For this game, yes I think it's bad due to the structure of it. It's suppose to be a freeform creativity platform where everyone can share their creations, allowing anyone regardless of ability to make a game. Money entering the system suddenly changes that in a lot of ways, not only as a user experience but also as how people view the game. You don't think there'd be a bit stink if there were "microtransactions" in this game?
 

Glimpse_Dog

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,770
No. However, I'm all for people monetizing indirectly e.g. live streaming creation process and setting up patreons.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,718
That seems like a great way to make the entire Dreams project an absolute financial quagmire, so no.

But if you get a job from your work in Dreams, that seems like a pretty good deal, right?