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Should some next gen games aim for 120fps?

  • Yes

    Votes: 123 22.8%
  • No

    Votes: 139 25.7%
  • Most TVs don't support 120fps

    Votes: 168 31.1%
  • An option wouldn't hurt

    Votes: 110 20.4%

  • Total voters
    540

Rickenslacker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,415
I'm aware that most attacks/movements in fighters are denoted by "frames", but what I don't really understand is why this causes an issue that other games don't need to account for. If something takes 1 frame in at 60hz and 2 frames at 120hz, those actions still ultimately come out at the same intervals of time, right?

Like I assume there are message board dorks from 2000 that used to obsess over how long a railgun would take to fire or the exact amount of time it took for a quad damage to regenerate. What's the fundamental difference between how other competitive games handle this stuff and how fighting games handle it? I'm wondering if this is just one of those outmoded things of developers tying their gamespeed logic to framerate.
my understanding is that a fighting game logic is handled by framerate, whereas something like a shooter entirely interpolated because it's based on server ticks. in a fighting game, you need those 60 frames, you need all the movement to be exact, but in shooters things are a bit more fuzzy because it's your client sending data to a server that tries to make sense of it and shoot it out to everyone else and smooths out the result to look natural.
 

NeoChaos

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,275
NorCal
There's nothing technically stopping fighting games from decoupling logic from framerate - you would just need to think attack start up times as a measure of time rather than frames (eg, 3 frames is now a 1/20 of a second). The issue is getting developers to make this change, and for players to accept and adapt to it.
 

skillzilla81

Self-requested temporary ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,043
There's nothing technically stopping fighting games from decoupling logic from framerate - you would just need to think attack start up times as a measure of time rather than frames (eg, 3 frames is now a 1/20 of a second). The issue is getting developers to make this change, and for players to accept and adapt to it.

This sounds terrible.

If we're talking about a game that looks like Street Fighter, they could certainly make a game that looks better than SF5 and still runs at 120fps

People complain about how fighters look now, and want them to look better at twice the framerate.

Okay.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
There's so so so so many things that the genre needs to standardize before pulling the trigger on a feature that most people don't have the hardware for.
 

RivalGT

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,399
Would I want it yeah.... But most tvs don't support 12hz... Playing online would be weird if some lobbies were 60hz and others were 120hz.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,107
NO! to the thread title. Whatever, to the poll.

Why don't they match, breh?


Re: fighting games, there's no need for even more restrictions on who can play them and what they require to function well. Hopefully the massive power increase next gen will enable much better netcode, which is the only technical improvement fighting games *really* need at this time.

"But what about the option for people who can support it?" Fighting games need a unified player base, period. Much more important than whatever is gained from 120hz. If the option was just for offline play, then sure, knock yourselves out.
 

Blackbird

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,478
Brazil
Some specific games definitely should, and fighting titles are definitely in this list, obviously.

It all depends on how much the hardware can push with visual fidelity and resolution, while allowing for a consistent level of performance, but considering the specs we have, i believe it's doable for specific fighters we have in the market (Street Fighter 6, a possible new Killer Instinct, Tekken, etc).
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,383
I'm aware that most attacks/movements in fighters are denoted by "frames", but what I don't really understand is why this causes an issue that other games don't need to account for. If something takes 1 frame in at 60hz and 2 frames at 120hz, those actions still ultimately come out at the same intervals of time, right?

But how? By that logic, something takes 1 frame at 60hz and 2 frames at 120hz means the animations are still in 60fps even on a 120hz output.
 

Quad Lasers

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,542
But how? By that logic, something takes 1 frame at 60hz and 2 frames at 120hz means the animations are still in 60fps even on a 120hz output.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. If an action is always timed to take exactly 1 second, that's agnostic of frames. A 5 frame attack that always comes out at the same interval of speed should cover 10 frames at 120fps.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,857
despite tvs being a factor you also need a netcode and connection good enough to support 120ticks per second.

Unlikely it's a good idea but like per pixel accuracy in fps games unlikely to happen. Also not interested in seeing janky implementations when the genre is fine.
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,389
Arent most fighting games like super oiled machines that rely on all that frame data to be fair and i guess accurate.
Because Tekken 7 anf SFV cant run at over 60 even on PC with an RTX Titan.

If they aim for 120fps the games would be frame locked to 120fps or atleast internally refreshing at 120Hz no?
Which might rather will alienate a big chunk of the FGC.

I would love to see some high level pros go at it in Tekken 7 at 4K144+
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,383
I'm not sure what you're talking about. If an action is always timed to take exactly 1 second, that's agnostic of frames. A 5 frame attack that always comes out at the same interval of speed should cover 10 frames at 120fps.

Fighting games aren't about speed or time though. It's all about the frames.
 

Euler007

Member
Jan 10, 2018
5,045
I think people are vastly overestimating their ability to count frames and not realizing they're predicting more than reacting.

In a 60 FPS scenario, let's take Ryu's Jab. 2 frame startup, 15 total frames. so it last exactly 0.25s. The 2 frames is 33ms, no one is reacting to that, at that level it's a matter of having picked a faster move than your opponent after a block. In a scenario randomly runnning between 75 and 120 fps with a logic based on milliseconds the jab is still input at 0ms, hitbox active at 33ms and the move ends at 0.25s.

This being said, I'm not going to start arguing with people that think they have achieved super-human senses.
 

Deleted member 61909

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 5, 2019
1,161
The tradition of fighting game threads being mind boggling continues
its amazingly mind boggling... I hate this topic specifically cause its always the layman vs the specialist. We know why this wont work and have been explaining this to people who don't understand under the hood of fighting games for a while now and they still push back calling us "dinosaurs" or saying "FPS games can do it, why can't fighting games", "or my favorite "you don't need frame specific timing". It's not that hard of a concept to understand. Its been damn near 30 years since the first fighter came out, if a developer has found a way to do it, they would of BEEN done it by now. Fighting game threads on here are the worst...
 

Sabercrusader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,200
I would much rather they put the time and effort into making netcode better for fighting games as a whole. 120fps is nice, but as long as they can keep a rock solid 60, I feel there is no real need for 120 when there are other technical issues that need attention.
 

lucebuce

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,892
Pakistan
Unfortunately no, but not for the dismissive reasons above (120Hz DOES make a difference). It would be forward thinking (because eventually all these 60Hz games are gonna be a bit disappointing to go back to - they already are for PC gamers)

But it is because the fighting game community isn't ready for it yet. The vast majority of displays out there are 60hz. It would make competitive fighting games too costly to enter.
This. A fighting game made and designed for 120 FPS is going to be better than if the same game was made and designed for 60 FPS but the hardware to actually support any of that is simply too high a barrier for the vast majority of people. And since competitive FGs need everything to be designed, developed and balanced around the universal target FPS, you can't just do both.

However I swear to Christ and Moses and all the Super Best Friends + sidekicks, if loading screens are still a thing I have to sit through for next-gen fighting games then fuck Capcpom.
I just want to load into a fight instantly.
THANK YOU!
 

Firima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,475
Nope. So many fighting games already have shit input lag and bad netcode. Companies should address that before going anywhere near higher framerates.
 

Deleted member 61909

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 5, 2019
1,161
Nope. So many fighting games already have shit input lag and bad netcode. Companies should address that before going anywhere near higher framerates.
even with the worlds best netcode and insane network infrastructure from Washington to Florida, not every system may hit 120. Then you will have systems playing online with varying FPS, which will be online hell.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,659
Would be interesting if something like that exists. It would obviously mean half the input lag and also more room for rollback netcode to better handle lag.
 

mxbison

Banned
Jan 14, 2019
2,148
I want a major fighting game that is physics based and doesn't use the same 20 year old mechanics that we have seen hundreds of times.

High framerate would definitely be nice for that.
 

Moara

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,870
That I would like a fighting game that doesnt use the same old preset hit boxes, start up, active, recovery, etc. and takes a physics based approach.

That just sounds like Gang Beast. It's a fun game to goof around with, but the unpredictable and chaotic nature is like the last thing you'd want in a fighting game, especially for the competitive side of things.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
Well we have about 500 using the traditional mechanics, it wouldn't hurt to try something different
Certainly indie games have tried something like that — look up Toribash. However it'll never be consistent enough for real competition, it's more of a goofy party game since you can't fully control what will happen.
 

mxbison

Banned
Jan 14, 2019
2,148
That just sounds like Gang Beast. It's a fun game to goof around with, but the unpredictable and chaotic nature is like the last thing you'd want in a fighting game, especially for the competitive side of things.

Well Gang Beasts is very unpredictable and chaotic because its pretty wonky and unpolished. A good physics engine would be somewhat predictable.

I think players having to adapt on the fly and not dial out combos they have done thousands of times in trainings mode could be interesting.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
Well Gang Beasts is very unpredictable and chaotic because its pretty wonky and unpolished. A good physics engine would be somewhat predictable.

I think players having to adapt on the fly and not dial out combos they have done thousands of times in trainings mode could be interesting.
I have great news for you, unless you're just starting out as a Flowchart Ken every fighting game ever made requires you to constantly adapt on the fly all the time.
 

Deleted member 13560

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,087
I just unlocked Tekken 7's framerate to 90. The game seems to be built around 90FPS and they just locked the framerate to 60. The important thing is it doesn't speed up game logic.

I'm going to see if I can iron some things out.
 

Papertoonz

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,258
Well Gang Beasts is very unpredictable and chaotic because its pretty wonky and unpolished. A good physics engine would be somewhat predictable.

I think players having to adapt on the fly and not dial out combos they have done thousands of times in trainings mode could be interesting.
if you think all competitive fighting games is learning combos then you're wrong, it's very much the case of adapting on the fly and learning how to control your opponent