Do you think leaking games is morally correct?

[Jolkien]

I do not think leaking video game information is immortal. I think it's more done becauyse the developers are usually so secretive until the inevitable deluge or marketing starts when the product is near release.

My question regarding this is more how come the video game industry is so secretive ? We know years in advance of upcoming movies. Same thing for a lot of books.

 

[Glio]

I do not think leaking video game information is immortal. I think it's more done becauyse the developers are usually so secretive until the inevitable deluge or marketing starts when the product is near release.

My question regarding this is more how come the video game industry is so secretive ? We know years in advance of upcoming movies. Same thing for a lot of books.

Click to shrink...

Because game development is not all comparable

It's complicated because game development is far less straightforward than movie development. Unless it's a movie caught in development hell, I suppose. Imagine that and you would have your standard game development process (this is actually not entirely applicable, but a good reference to the amount of moving pieces).

The most important factor is the fact that games have interactivity. And design work essentially consists of turning theory into practice while adapting the inevitable fact of eventually finding out that there are technical limitations that have to be kept in mind, optimization needs change everything, what made logical sense in theory feel shitty when actually playing (happens VERY often), interaction between varying systems doesn't work as expected, promising prototypes don't manage to actually reach the best quality because of some seemingly little details that weren't considered on prototype stage when the feature or core gameplay itself was approved, etc.

This is also what leads to things like games cancelled early (and late), games that started as one thing eventually turning into a different thing, etc. etc.

And I absolutely would prefer, on a personal level, to be open about all that with everyone.

But I understand why this is not usually happening because that's not how collective Internet memory works. Collective Internet memory turns things that had to be cut or changed into 'lies', and imagination makes people go 'oh just think about what could've been' based on vague concepts that didn't work out and let the unlimited human processor create the greatest image in their minds that in reality has 10 million ways to go wrong, and a result of hundreds of iterations and compromises to make sure that everything can actually work in as proper and best way possible is turned into uninformed 'why did they do this instead of this' YouTube video that is then heralded as the 'truth' of why devs are wrong. And then players hold grudges.

The truth is that any piece of information the developers release can be used against them later due to a HIGHLY increased likelihood of things changing, at a much higher frequency that it usually happens in other mediums. Hence, sadly, the secrecy.

Click to shrink...

 

[madridi-gh]

It's like blowing out a kid's birthday cake candles before they do

Younger kid = indie studio
Older kid = AAA studio

 

[jaymzi]

Dunno if immoral is the right word.

But it must suck for a creator who spent years working on something and hoping to announce it in the way they had hoped.

 

[AvianAviator]

I would have said people put too much stake on this

But after thinking about it, I think the nature of the gaming community and the vitriol it can spread makes it kind of irresponsible to leak things. There was so so so so much harassment of Naughty Dog devs and actors when TLOU2 was leaked. So now I think there's really no benefit to leaking, and the game industry is in the right for being as secretive as it is.

 

[Saladin]

I don't see anything immoral about it. It just ruins the surprise

Surely sucks for the creators since they're the ones that should do the announcement

 

[Zoidn]

Leaking game announcements and reveals is nothing but self aggrandisation from people who want to feel important. Unless we are talking about wrongdoings in a company getting brought to light, it benefits literally no one other than the leaker and their ego. It's also a lot less fun than getting proper reveals.

 

[cvbas]

It has no moral value. Press conferences and trailer drops are literally just ads. And this whole problem could easily be eliminated if the videogame industry stopped being so secretive for no reason.

 

[Soltis]

I think it's fair to call leaks immoral, though yeah, for some reason "immoral" feels like kind of a weird word to use. I can't explain it, but "unethical," which is also connected to morality, feels like a better word for some reason.

When you have put your time, effort, and energy into creating something, I think it's fair that you and your colleagues ought to be able to decide how that thing is shared with others. When and if someone takes that ability away from you via leaks, it sucks.

 

[Wulfram]

If you promised to keep a secret and you don't then that's very likely immoral. If its not your secret to keep then you can do what you want.

 

[Astronomer]

My question regarding this is more how come the video game industry is so secretive ? We know years in advance of upcoming movies. Same thing for a lot of books.

Click to shrink...

At least two generations of consoles ago, we have constantly received updates, videos and images of the games in development. The industry became so secret because of the players themselves : the negative judgment on a single screenshot could compromise the image of the entire project.
Every image published, ended up under the magnifying glass and the user did not understand the difference between "work in progress" and "finished product" evidently. We are not ripe to return to the transparency of before.
The industry was more transparent back then

 

[CloseTalker]

I think it's bad practice, only because I think it's been proven time and time (and time and time and time) again that the gaming community isn't mature or level-headed enough to rationally process snippets of leaked information.

 

[Adam_Roman]

I don't think it's immoral, but I also feel like games should take more of a movie approach to product announcements. Confirm it's a project being worked on in a small press release or article near the start of full development, but keep it under wraps and reveal it a year at most before launch. Trailers for games that are years away just gets annoying because now people will keep asking for it every single time a new event rolls around because a trailer makes people think it's much farther along than it is. There's gonna be plenty of people pissed off if MS doesn't show Elder Scrolls 6, Nintendo doesn't show Metroid Prime 4, etc.

Plus it just sucks that so many employees have to keep these secrets or in the case of voice actors, not even be aware what project they're working on.

 

[Souls Survivor]

I think it's fair to call leaks immoral, though yeah, for some reason "immoral" feels like kind of a weird word to use. I can't explain it, but "unethical," which is also connected to morality, feels like a better word for some reason.

When you have put your time, effort, and energy into creating something, I think it's fair that you and your colleagues ought to be able to decide how that thing is shared with others. When and if someone takes that ability away from you via leaks, it sucks.

Click to shrink...

Yeah a lot of this thread seems to be getting hung up on semantics. Calling something immoral, unethical, bad, rude, etc are all basically ways of saying leaks are net negative imo. Some people may reserve moral for more severe ethical quandaries, but I've always looked at immoral as something that is not moral or amoral. Which then would make leaks immoral for me.

 

[XSX]

Yup

 

[Lengualo]

Probably not morally incorrect, but you should allow developers the time to make the game and show it off how they want to. I understand people really prize secrecy but looking at dev streams of games that are obviously still in development and developers say it's WIP and seeing the outrage targeted towards them online when something isn't perfect, is wild.

People often compare video games to movies, but I don't think they're the same thing. We hear so much concern trolling about all the games Xbox has announced that might still be a few years out. It's probably better to just give developers the time they need and let them show it when they want to.

Click to shrink...

Isn't this in part caused by studios leaning heavy into only showing finished, polished products so most gamers don't know what WIP looks like?

While leaks are wrong, I do wish studios were more transparent. It can really kill hype when you get an announcement and then years of radio silence, or nothing about your favourite series for many years.

I also wish studios would take a step back from high fidelity. Its making timescales and costs unreal and harming the games; the characters and artistry are really starting to look samey, and other areas of games are taking a hit in exchange for it being visually as realistic as possible. Games are losing their distinctiveness and individuality.

 

[Deleted member 93062]

Isn't this in part caused by studios leaning heavy into only showing finished, polished products so most gamers don't know what WIP looks like?

While leaks are wrong, I do wish studios were more transparent. It can really kill hype when you get an announcement and then years of radio silence, or nothing about your favourite series for many years.

I also wish studios would take a step back from high fidelity. Its making timescales and costs unreal and harming the games; the characters and artistry are really starting to look samey, and other areas of games are taking a hit in exchange for it being visually as realistic as possible. Games are losing their distinctiveness and individuality.

Click to shrink...

I feel like most consumers just get tired when a game is shown off too much. We saw it with Deathloop and every single State of Play, and that was actual polished gameplay.

People compare gaming too much to movies. The audiences are entirely different IMO.

 

[Ckoerner]

No, it is not morally correct. You are betraying the trust of your co-workers and the agreed upon contract for your employment. Is it moral to find a wallet and keep the cash? (That's an analogy and all are imperfect. I'm not interested in arguing over the analogy).

While I'd appreciate more communication from developers, I also understand the competitive need for secrecy. Show too much and someone will create a knock-off before your product has even launched.

 

[Lengualo]

I feel like most consumers just get tired when a game is shown off too much. We saw it with Deathloop and every single State of Play, and that was actual polished gameplay.

People compare gaming too much to movies. The audiences are entirely different IMO.

Click to shrink...

Well, yeah. If things go too far the other way thats negative too. But the industry as a whole leans too heavy into secrecy and opaqueness. Something every few months or so between announcement and release is fine though, as are little teases.

 

[scare_crow]

"Moral" is quite the strong word when we're dealing with video game advertisements.

 

[Lengualo]

No, it is not morally correct. You are betraying the trust of your co-workers and the agreed upon contract for your employment. Is it moral to find a wallet and keep the cash? (That's an analogy and all are imperfect. I'm not interested in arguing over the analogy).

While I'd appreciate more communication from developers, I also understand the competitive need for secrecy. Show too much and someone will create a knock-off before your product has even launched.

Click to shrink...

I think this is a little bit on the paranoid side. Obviously studios need to be selective about what they show.

However, with the costs and work burden associated with modern games I think its unlikely most major studios would see their stuff knocked-off - at least in a way that would be harmful to them - for being a little more transparent.

Indie studios working on smaller products would be more at risk from this. But I still don't think a little more transparency would hurt.

Also, I don't think most games are that innovative in the sense of gameplay mechanics being ripped off.

 

[mael]

I think both the video game industry and fanbase have bigger ethical issues than the leaking of announcements.

Click to shrink...

I'm gonna go with that.

 

[PeskyToaster]

I think in the grand scheme of moral quandaries, it's one of the most minor and inconsequential and worth little to no time spent pondering it.

 

[Jaymageck]

Honestly depends entirely on if the game is looking good or bad.


If the game looks good:
The impact of a leak is usually making the jobs of a bunch of real people harder because they have to replan their strategy, thus potentially causing them suffering.

The joy the leak potentially cause the audience was going to come through the official announcement anyway. So you just get it slightly sooner.

I won't trade some joy sooner for some net additional suffering.

If the game looks bad

There's a good chance the developers need pressure on upper management to change direction. The leak may result in this pressure, resulting in a delay to release date, allowing the developers to make a better product, which will probably make them feel better and thus, reduce their suffering.


So, good game, don't leak.
Bad game, leak.

Legality- irrelevant.

 

[RowdyReverb]

It's like blowing out a kid's birthday cake candles before they do

Younger kid = indie studio
Older kid = AAA studio

Click to shrink...

I love this analogy. Not necessarily immoral, definitely not illegal, but not nice either

 

[Budi]

There's such strong divide in gaming communities. There's those who think the industry has too much secrecy and those who enjoy leaks. But then there's those who complain about games being announced "too early". I'll never understand the latter group though.

I find leaking to be selfish act. And it doesn't always lead to good discussion. But my opinion on this is affected by my distaste in constant speculation and hype for games that aren't even playable yet, while there's tons of great games out there that barely get acknowledged. People discussing games they actually have played is just so much more interesting.

 

[Phendrift]

All I know is, if you're leaking games days or hours prior to their due announcement just for clout-chasing purposes or to get your name out there on the internets or whatever, then you're kind of a dickhead.

Click to shrink...

Pretty much exactly what I was gonna say.

It's not "wrong" I guess, but I don't buy "it's journalism!" when that's the case

 

[Mattersnotnow]

Leaking a game by itself doesn't have weight in a moral evaluation but the circumstances may.
Leaking a game as a journalist who heard about it from a contact is amoral, leaking a game that a different team at your studio worked on because your project was cancelled is reprehensible however.

 

[Relix]

This is where some people draw the line? You are buying consoles made by slaves in China.

 

[poptire]

I dunno if it's moral or not, but it does seem to take the wind out of real people's sails sometimes. I couldn't in good conscience leak something if I knew it was going to impact someone's life negatively. What's the point of leaks anyway? To be "first" and gain e-clout?

 

[Couleurs]

I'm fine with leaks after getting tired of companies thinking literally every game needs to be hyped up using countdowns for announcements of announcements of countdowns for another countdown for an announcement of a countdown for the actual announcement

 

[Digital Savior]

Announcing games is only marketing. Who cares about marketing in the grand scheme of things? Surprises and hype is all about marketing. So in that sense, I don't care.

On the other hand, you can argue people are passionate about their projects and want it to be a surprise. So betraying people's trust is not great.

We're all different. People will feel differently.

 

[fundogmo]

Incredibly shitty thing to do you the devs, but hey... enjoy that free clout for doing nothing, leaker.

 

[Vibed]

Amoral at best, immoral at worst

 

[Platy]

It is absolutely morally correct to leak marketing.
It is shitty to leak sources.

Fuck corporations, protect humans.

Like leaking the latest direct ? awesome.
Saying it came from a badly written nda from an indie game ? bad.

 

[PJTierney]

Pretty much. It serves no purpose besides clout-chasing.

Click to shrink...

I believe it's a bit more than that, with some sites paying cash for the "exclusive". I'm not a journalist though so this is nothing more than a hunch.

I won't wade too much into these waters because I'm uncomfortable talking about leaks in general, but this thread had a lot of insightful replies:

Game devs, how do game leaks impact your work?

Game devs, What's it like in the office when your game's announcement leaks ahead of time? How do leaks impact your work? We regularly see the leaks but rarely understand what's happening in the studio when a leak happens. Previous thread (2019)...

www.resetera.com

People understand how a film is made because is more or less straightforward. Gamers don't understand how games are made (and they don't really want)
They just cry and scream about "cut content" and "Why this alpha looks so bad?".

Gamers don't deserve or can deal with transparency

Click to shrink...

Correct on both counts.

It's very easy for the public to immediately dismiss a game simply because a leak divulges or reveals stuff that isn't polished enough, complete enough or given enough context on the thing they now only know second-hand information about. Additionally, lots of things are in flux throughout development, so something that gets leaked super early might not even be in a game by the time it releases.

Not to go all "hail corporate" here, but there's more to a marketing campaign than simply driving pre-orders. A well-structured campaign spells out quite clearly what a game is, what's in it, and why the publisher thinks it is worth your time and money. Trailers and screenshots are obvious, but a campaign also involves things like developer deep-dives, preview videos, hands-on access for media and creators etc. A lot of effort goes into showing how something hundreds of people worked (and sometimes crunched) on can potentially be an enjoyable experience if/when you decide to hit download/buy.

A leak can and often will rob the comms team of the opportunity to announce with the proper context, and very few campaigns can recover from that (though Capcom played it like champs with Street Fighter 6 as the leaked roster was so positively received by players and it came after the formal reveal of the game).

If a community thinks a game sucks because some mid-production assets (or words about them) got out without the proper context, that can kill a product right there and then without it ever even having a chance to stand up for itself. You only get one chance to make a first impression and if somebody else "steals" that opportunity from you it can cause a lot of unneeded hassle and stress for many people.

 

[Khanimus]

Applying morality to marketing cycles sure is a perspective...

People find out a name and some bullet points - what changes? What, is the marketing department now no longer going to advertise the game? No.

 

[TechnoSyndrome]

Of course it is it's a product lmao. They're not ruining a surprise party it's a fuckin advertisement for a thing a corporation wants you to spend money on.

 

[Farlander]

I've been summoned by people quoting my post from another thread :D

There's a lot of "it would've been great if it worked liked that" type of responces here. In addition to what I said in that other post why there is a catch-22 with secrecy even though I wish for full-on transparency but the nature of game development is often misunderstood, there are other points to tackle.

I see sentiments that say "this is just marketing". There are great games that bombed commercially because they either didn't get proper marketing or the marketing plans went haywire for one reason or another. Let's not dismiss the importance of it. Only a select few projects actually get popular enough through word of mouth. A leak can totally mess up marketing strategy geared for maximum timing impact, seen this happen.

Even the most well-planned and well-produced games look like a total mess until all pieces start fitting together close to the end of production, so the sentiments of leaks being representative of final quality are usually wrong - players don't have enough information to make that assessment.

I've seen a post that said "if a game looks bad pressure might lead to delays which decreases the suffering of developers". I wish it worked like that, but most of the time delays don't lead to decreased amounts of suffering.

In general delays are weird, they are only as effective as the production itself is. If production is healthy, delays will be healthy, yeah. If production is a mess (which it is for too many big AAA projects for reasons that would prolong this post to a huge size) , delays lead to even bigger health problems, more pressure, more crunch, even more game issues, everything is a clusterfuck even more so than before the delay. And then every delay is ALWAYS accompanied by another aspect - now the game needs to make so much more money to be profitable because the budget has increased significantly.

So... let's just agree not to leak things.

 

[RF Switch]

The more leaks the better and more hype people get. Treating these events like a tvshow is weird to me. If there was a leak hinting towards Banjo 3 on Sunday it would push more people towards watching it and people would be just as happy it exists if they didn't know of the leak in the first place. Now that being said who wants to give that small hint of Banjo…pretty please

 

[Ragnarok Flames]

im not in the business of giving a shit about the feelings of corpos or the non boots-on-the-ground devs (e.g. managament, marketing, PR etc). corporations arent your friends, their info about projects is IMO free game as it were.

the only time i have issue is when the contractors and devs get shit for something like a leak.

 

[Renna Hazel]

Is there any particular reason the employees in marketing aren't seen as people the same way devs are? People seem to act as if devs aren't part of the corporation and we should feel for them, but the marketing employees don't seem to get the same treatment?

Either way, I wouldn't use the word moral here. Personally, I like being surprised though.

 

[Landy828]

Morally?

This is video games, 🤣 .


Morals aren't even part of the discussion, lol. I like surprises though.

 

[Platy]

Is there any particular reason the employees in marketing aren't seen as people the same way devs are? People seem to act as if devs aren't part of the corporation and we should feel for them, but the marketing employees don't seem to get the same treatment?

Click to shrink...

Marketing people should not be fired if the company has a leak. If this happens the problem is that the company is shit, not that leaks happen.

So the characters were leaked ? great. Now the marketing can focus on character reveals to show GAMEPLAY of the characters, no need to focus too much on showing the designs since everyone already saw that. This should not affect the job of the human behind it and both the human and the company can adapt to it.

 

[tokenflipguy]

No, but exploiting horrible business/labor practices is a big YES from me.

Just to add nuance. I think it's bad to post a scoop that doesn't inherently help the industry as a whole, but it's more something that gives certain insiders clout and EP.

 

[cowbanana]

In an industry based around hype merchants, I do like me some leaks. So no I don't think it has anything to do with morality (I hate that word).

If the industry behaved differently and shipped more finished products I might care... a little.

 

[ramoisdead]

It has no moral value. Press conferences and trailer drops are literally just ads. And this whole problem could easily be eliminated if the videogame industry stopped being so secretive for no reason.

Click to shrink...

It's how I see it as well.

 

[Tali'Zorah]

Yes, it's fine, they're journalists, their job is to report on news, and if a game's existence is newsworthy (which in most cases, it is), it's absolutely fair enough to leak it. It's not up to journalists to keep corporations' secrets.

The only time it's not okay is, for example, the recent Victoria III leak, where an early alpha build of the game that was being used for playtesting leaked online, that's obviously different and not acceptable.

But just saying "hey this game exists, it's by [whoever] and is about [whatever]" is pretty harmless. Hell, knowing a new Kojima game is coming has made me more excited for Summer Game Fest than I was before bc I'm looking forward to actually seeing it

 

[Renna Hazel]

Marketing people should not be fired if the company has a leak. If this happens the problem is that the company is shit, not that leaks happen.

So the characters were leaked ? great. Now the marketing can focus on character reveals to show GAMEPLAY of the characters, no need to focus too much on showing the designs since everyone already saw that. This should not affect the job of the human behind it and both the human and the company can adapt to it.

Click to shrink...

Developers aren't fired for leaks either. But people seem to have empathy for them but not the marketing team. The post right above mine for example, says they care about the feelings of the developers but not the people who are in marketing. Just seems odd that they're not seen as people is all.

 

[Musubi]

I think if something is newsworthy its newsworthy. The industry is already way to secretive.