No, because I don't think Endgame is a film that stands on its own. It's more like a good conclusion to a TV series, rather than something that is an work of art unto itself. TDK is technically a sequel but it completely doesn't matter. It has a commentary on society and I think it works even for people who aren't into superheroes.
Not only Endgame, but the first Avenger movie and Infinity War already succed it. TDK was a landmark movie, it is still fun thanks to Ledger, Endgame is a generational event. Sorry, but the MCU is already leagues above the Nolan trilogy.
Not only Endgame, but the first Avenger movie and Infinity War already succed it. TDK was a landmark movie, it is still fun thanks to Ledger, Endgame is a generational event. Sorry, but the MCU is already leagues above the Nolan trilogy.
Endgame isn't anywhere near the best marvel movie for me. It would make the lower end of the top 10. Overall whilst I enjoy all the marvel movies I don't think any of them are up there with BB, TDK or SM2.
Yeah, I imagined it was going to be the majority opinion. TDK is a sacred cow, and for good reasons. It came in the right way at the right time, but what the Avengers achieved is on another level.
Yeah, I imagined it was going to be the majority opinion. TDK is a sacred cow, and for good reasons. It came in the right way at the right time, but what the Avengers achieved is on another level.
My dad watched The Dark Knight and he hates superhero films. He doesn't give a monkeys about IW and Endgame. I can't even remember a superhero film other than TDK that he watched.
(Also I'd put Endgame probably around 7th or 8th or so MCU wise: behind Iron Man, GOTG 1 and 2, Winter Soldier, Infinity War and Black Panther and maybe Civil War)
Endgame didn't even outrank Black Panther in the MCU.
It was a mediocre end to an average MCU series. I mean, it was a goddamn time travel movie! How much more cliche can you get?
TDK is a good "movie", not simply a good "superhero movie". Endgame is barely a good "superhero movie". Y'all blasphemers suggesting they are even comparable.
You are definitely not alone. I've only seen once Endgame so I wouldn't know. I think that IW is a better film on its own, I mean I went and watch it when the last film I had watched was Civil War back in opening day, and I didn't liked it much back then, so then went into IW thinking "ok, how's the MCU now, this should be good right?" and fuck, it sucked me all in. Went ahead and watched all films after that and got me hyped for Endgame. Then Endgame came and it took it's time to suck me in, but when it did I liked it more than IW.
So let's put it like this, on average, Infinity War is better. Endgame has higher highs and "lower" lows. But it's too early for that.
Thinking about that it also brings that this question of TDK vs Endgame is too early to ask. But I stand in the opinion that since 2012's Avengers film, the MCU is on it's own league. I mean, those lower lows of Endgame aren't really lows. I can't think of something that I didn't like, it's just that you go all hyped up and the movie stops you and slaps you in the face saying "hey, people died here" and you go "oh shit", and it's on a funeral pace. It had to be like that, but it's weird after Infinity War
Not only Endgame, but the first Avenger movie and Infinity War already succed it. TDK was a landmark movie, it is still fun thanks to Ledger, Endgame is a generational event. Sorry, but the MCU is already leagues above the Nolan trilogy.
Absolutely not. I'm certainly no Nolan stan, but as a film, Endgame wasn't even as good as Infinity War before it. I agree with folks that it's a cultural event and new paradigm in consistent, serialized storytelling for mainstream movies, but as a movie, I really didn't think it was exceptional -- for me, it mostly erred on the "not so good" side.
It made mostly safe and predictable choices on the tails of Infinity War's more layered, interesting setup, reduced Thanos from a complex villain to the typical MCU world-destroyer-of-the-week, and rode on a marginally clever but sloppily executed (and again, predictable) time travel plot just as an excuse to be up its own ass with self-reverence, ending with a final battle that didn't feel like much of a struggle at all. There were a few interesting choices and a whole lot of wonderful performances, but I wasn't surprised, awed, impressed or moved.
The Dark Knight is probably a bit too deified and has problems of its own, but it's an overall tighter, better-structured, infinitely better paced crime movie centered around an absolutely seminal performance. I'd also give it a big edge in cinematography (real locations and physical human beings in the same space go a long way there) and score. I also give it props for being a movie of its time; it's not a "statement" movie, but there are certainly underpinnings of 9-11, Bush and the surveillance state that very much resonate. Meanwhile, Endgame has to do with the extinction of half the planet -- on a planet where we're facing actual extinction -- and has nothing to say about it but "bad guy bad, human good."
Honestly, it weirds me out a little that this is "the movie of a generation." I've found the MCU movies to be mostly just competent and affable, with about two or three transcending into "great" territory. And Endgame wasn't one of them.
Absolutely not. I'm certainly no Nolan stan, but as a film, Endgame wasn't even as good as Infinity War before it. I agree with folks that it's certainly a cultural event and new paradigm in consistent, serialized storytelling for mainstream movies, but as a movie, I really didn't think it was exceptional -- for me, it mostly erred on the "not so good" side.
It made mostly safe and predictable choices on the tails of Infinity War's more layered, interesting setup, reduced Thanos from a complex villain to the typical MCU world-destroyer-of-the-week, and rode on a marginally clever but sloppily executed (and again, predictable) time travel plot just as an excuse to be up its own ass with self-reverence, ending with a final battle that didn't feel like much of a struggle at all. There were a few interesting choices and a whole lot of wonderful performances, but I wasn't surprised, awed, impressed or moved.
The Dark Knight is probably a bit too deified and has problems of its own, but it's an overall tighter, better-structured, infinitely better paced crime movie centered around an absolutely seminal performance. I'd also give it a big edge in cinematography (real locations and physical human beings in the same space go a long way there) and score. I also give it props for being a movie of its time; it's not a "statement" movie, but there are certainly underpinnings of 9-11, Bush and the surveillance state that very resonate. Meanwhile, Endgame has to do with the extinction of half the planet -- on a planet where we're facing actual extinction -- and has nothing to say about it but "bad guy bad, human good."
Honestly, it weirds me out a little that this is "the movie of a generation." I've found the MCU movies to be mostly just competent and affable, with just two or three transcending into "great" territory. And Endgame wasn't one of them.
Absolutely not. I'm certainly no Nolan stan, but as a film, Endgame wasn't even as good as Infinity War before it. I agree with folks that it's certainly a cultural event and new paradigm in consistent, serialized storytelling for mainstream movies, but as a movie, I really didn't think it was exceptional -- for me, it mostly erred on the "not so good" side.
It made mostly safe and predictable choices on the tails of Infinity War's more layered, interesting setup, reduced Thanos from a complex villain to the typical MCU world-destroyer-of-the-week, and rode on a marginally clever but sloppily executed (and again, predictable) time travel plot just as an excuse to be up its own ass with self-reverence, ending with a final battle that didn't feel like much of a struggle at all. There were a few interesting choices and a whole lot of wonderful performances, but I wasn't surprised, awed, impressed or moved.
The Dark Knight is probably a bit too deified and has problems of its own, but it's an overall tighter, better-structured, infinitely better paced crime movie centered around an absolutely seminal performance. I'd also give it a big edge in cinematography (real locations and physical human beings in the same space go a long way there) and score. I also give it props for being a movie of its time; it's not a "statement" movie, but there are certainly underpinnings of 9-11, Bush and the surveillance state that very resonate. Meanwhile, Endgame has to do with the extinction of half the planet -- on a planet where we're facing actual extinction -- and has nothing to say about it but "bad guy bad, human good."
Honestly, it weirds me out a little that this is "the movie of a generation." I've found the MCU movies to be mostly just competent and affable, with about two or three transcending into "great" territory. And Endgame wasn't one of them.
It made mostly safe and predictable choices on the tails of Infinity War's more layered, interesting setup, reduced Thanos from a complex villain to the typical MCU world-destroyer-of-the-week, and rode on a marginally clever but sloppily executed (and again, predictable) time travel plot just as an excuse to be up its own ass with self-reverence, ending with a final battle that didn't feel like much of a struggle at all. There were a few interesting choices and a whole lot of wonderful performances, but I wasn't surprised, awed, impressed or moved.
You're on the minority on the bolded though. I had people crying like it was the end of the world in my showing. It was up its own ass but you know what this do that TDK didn't? Earn it.
Yeah, of course, it's a matter of taste obviously.
Your edit, yes, you are 100% right. But it just wasn't made to be watched on it's own. It's like wanting TDK to be a comedy flick, it wasn't made to be that. Endgame was made to be a conclusion of 11 years of films, and it fulfills it in the best way possible. The MCU earned the "right" to do such a thing (a blockbuster event that requires you to know stuff beforehand)
I really liked Endgame, but it's not even my top 5 MCU. I think it just barely edges out Shazam as the best superhero film released in April 2019. Shazam was surprisingly good.
You're on the minority on the bolded though. I had people crying like it was the end of the world in my showing. It was up its own ass but you know what this do that TDK didn't? Earn it.
No, not really. I don't say "up its own ass" to mean "pretentious"; you could definitely say The Dark Knight is more pretentious than Endgame (which I don't think was pretentious at all). What I mean is that Endgame is incredibly self-reverent. It's not about "earning" anything -- patting yourself on the back to make a big montage of "hey, remember when we did this?" moments is not satisfying filmmaking. Infinity War set up a litany of interesting, exciting ideas to explore, and Endgame said, "nah, fuck that, let's do a clip show." It's especially goofy because one of the main defenses -- and redeeming factors -- of Endgame is the idea that it's the culmination of 22 films; that, you could say, it "earns." But if we're meant to take this whole thing as a complete package, that's all the more reason that we don't need a "best of" movie to cap the whole thing off.
And I know that plenty of folks were more affected than me. That's fair. There were touching, resonant moments and I didn't go into it with any armor up, but it just personally didn't hit me there (and it should've been easy, as I've been familiar with these characters since well before they were in movies). I was touched by small character moments like...
Rocket and Nebula, Happy Hogan's "cheeseburgers" moment
... but the major deaths felt like checklist items.
People fucking love Endgame right now, and it's cool that they're having a fun moment. One thing I've noticed here in your argument and really just all over the place, though, is that a lot of that love comes in the form of superlatives and platitudes. I'd be super interested to read some reviews or opinions that really express why someone thinks it's a great movie -- not to convince myself, but just to get a peek into that mindset. To the topic, it ain't really about The Dark Knight for me; I could name five, maybe up to ten, other comic book flicks that I think are easily better films.
No, because I don't think Endgame is a film that stands on its own. It's more like a good conclusion to a TV series, rather than something that is an work of art unto itself. TDK is technically a sequel but it completely doesn't matter. It has a commentary on society and I think it works even for people who aren't into superheroes.
I came to post this exact same thing. Endgame is an amazing achievement and payoff to 11 years of movies that lead up to it, but that is it's also greatest weakness is that it doesn't stand alone. You need the other movies for it to have any meaning. Hell at a bare minimum you need Infinity War for it to make any sense. So since it can't stand alone, it will never be the best comic book movie. It's incomplete on its own.
And the argument that it isn't a superhero movie always feels weak to me.
People look at the MCU's use of magic, cosmic weirdness, and super science and say it embraced the quirkiness of the characters unlike TDK.
Yet The Dark Knight is filled with comic book craziness. Batman skydives from one building into another, takes out a room of armed men, and then grapples into a moving plane with a hostage all while the Hong Kong police force is trained on him.
Bruce takes fingerprints of a reconstructed bullet fired into a brick using techno shit that makes no goddamn sense.
Batman's has a motorcycle installed inside his Batmobile incase of vehicle failure, which self destructs to prevent it falling into the wrong hands.
Batman can see all of Gotham with sonar by hacking into everyone's phone simulatenously.
Harvey Dent walks around Gotham with half his face exposed to the muscle, takes no painkillers, and doesn't faint or die from the trauma.
Like come on, this shit is as Batman as you can get.
Maybe the overall world is more grounded, than the MCU or something like Burton's Batman. But in that way, is this not akin to an Elseworlds Batman tale like Batman: Earth One?
The Dark Knight is about a man dressed as a bat with fighting skills and technology no other person on the plan has taking on a criminal clown with schemes no one else can unravel. Some people get killed, but Batman saves hundreds more by the end. This shit is Batman. It's comic book as fuck and it's a superhero movie.
You could watch The Dark Knight with minimal knowledge of Batman and have a great time.
The same can't really be said for Endgame. It's a great conclusion, but not as an individual film.
Though I don't find either to be the best superhero film. TDK lacks a certain emotional maturity and the last act is a mess. Spider-man 2 is probably still the best.
