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Do you support Scottish Independence?

  • Yes

    Votes: 895 49.0%
  • No

    Votes: 63 3.5%
  • No (But I support there being another referendum)

    Votes: 68 3.7%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 23 1.3%
  • England should have a referendum on whether to kick Scotland out

    Votes: 22 1.2%
  • Let Scotland decide (I don't live in Scotland/the UK)

    Votes: 755 41.3%

  • Total voters
    1,826

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
So the 2019 UK election came in and painted the UK like this

HnibhnW.png


Yellow represents the Scottish Nationalist Party, they won 47 seats out of 59 in Scotland. Blue is Conservative, Red is Labour.

The vote for Brexit in 2016 looked like this

Hg7OFgb.jpg


Scotland actually managed to vote 100% in favour of remain in all the constituencies. Some won by a few %, but still, it's impressive compared to England/Wales.

For a bit of history, the last time Scotland returned a majority Government for the Tories was 1955

ybIjbIf.png


So we have a country that is part of a Union which repeatedly votes for the Conservatives and the largest country, England, pretty much dictates how the smaller countries in the UK will be governed. Whilst Scotland has some devolution, many matters remain reserved to Westminster in London. One important example, social security. Universal Credit (the Tories new benefit system) has destroyed the UK in the last 10 years. As is defence (the SNP and Scotland wish to denuclearise but cannot).

While I won't put too much media in the OP, here is our First Minister on the morning of the election results



Both the UK Government and the UK media are incredibly hostile to Scotland and often hold us in contempt, no matter how the Scottish people decide to vote



Right now Boris Johnson is playing hardball and stating he will never allow the Scottish people to decide again on their right to self-determination (independence). It makes the UK sound like North Korea.

The biggest issue Scotland is facing is the way the Union is setup, Westminster/England, have reign over every country and it is legally up to them whether they allow us or any other country in this Union the powers to ask their people if they wish to be independent. Yes, you might have visions of British colonialism, and you wouldn't be wrong to think such a way. This is not a union of equals and never has been.

For us to rejoin the EU we need to separate legally from the UK, this will avoid any Catalonia like situations. However, even now the point is being made around civil disobedience if the UK Government really does intend to keep saying no to the Scottish people

Of course, civil disobedience has to be trained for, organised and disciplined, or it risks alienating more people than it gathers in support. The goal is not disruption per se but to prove to the world the unwillingness of a people to be denied their rights and freedoms.

Civil disobedience is a bearing of witness that, in the end, exposes the self-serving lies of those who would deny democracy. It is not a matter of an annual sit-down outside Westminster or getting wet occasionally on a damp march through Edinburgh.

Mass civil disobedience demands non-violent confrontation on a daily basis till you sap the opponent's will to continue. It is swamping the courts and police cells, it is refusing to pay taxes, it is hounding Tory politicians at every meeting they go to on any subject, and it is making the colonial Scotland Office unworkable. In short, it is being a damned nuisance till we drive Boris bonkers. Ultimately, a successful campaign demands that the people of Scotland refuse to recognise the writ of a Tory regime in any form.

That could involve blockading the Scotland Office in Edinburgh or occupying the Satanic Border and Immigration HQ in Glasgow. It could mean mass demonstrations to stop Scots EU citizens being deported. It could mean a refusal to pay your TV licence or car tax.

Certainly, it requires a parliamentary counterpart, with our new SNP MPs disrupting Westminster business. But there's no point in such actions being undertaken by a tiny minority. It will require tens of thousands to take part and millions to sympathise with them, as in Hong Kong.

Mass civil disobedience is no easy option. It takes consistency of effort to turn the political tide in this way. Gandhi's campaign of civil disobedience took nearly 30 years to bear fruit, in the teeth of extreme British violence. From the Montgomery bus boycott to the first genuine civil rights legislation being passed, it took Martin Luther King more than a decade of continuous campaigning.


Yes, we voted NO in 2014, probably one of the only countries in history which would vote NO in the face of escaping British ownership. Feel free to laugh at us given our current predicament. However, some of that vote went to the Better Together campaign which told Scottish people if they voted NO, they'd stay in the EU with the UK, guaranteed (versus an independent Scotland reapplying) and Scottish Labour who backed NO, also implied they'd fight to deliver Scots a progressive Labour Government in England. Corbyn has just been humiliated and he's the most progressive Labour leader I've seen in my lifetime. The UK is leaving the EU even though Scotland was told to stay inside the UK to stay in the EU.

Thankfully now though some in Scottish Labour, a party which has been wiped out in Scotland, understand the tides are shifting





I understand Americans, and many others in Europe have their own political battles to fight, but the UK is a very interesting political study right now, with how divided Scotland is from the rUK. I would hope us Scots could get some international support from like-minded progressives and campaigners who can lend their verbal support to us leaving this broken UK Union. Hopefully we can return to the EU where things were better, or would be better, than a Tory-led Britain outside of EU protections/laws currently begging Donald Trump for a trade deal.

English people who support Brexit and support the Conservatives can celebrate all they like, if they actually support democracy they should have the ability to see how Scotland wants different from the UK and not keep being so hostile to us leaving. The cynic in me has always felt the main reason the UK wants to keep Scotland is oil/gas, much like the reason for the US/UK to go kill hundreds of thousands in Iraq was about oil.

If Scottish Oil/Gas had been better managed over the decades by the Conservatives, and the few Labour Governments we've had, maybe the UK would be sitting on here


Yes, there's Norway, a country with the same population size as Scotland, 5 million, sitting in 3rd with over 1 billion in assets thanks to their Oil. Makes you think. The UK is currently something like 1.3 trillion in debt.

People in the UK always screaming "Scotland can't go alone", would be best to pay attention

It has all the ingredients to be the richest country on earth – on a per capita basis. It has 'the triple'. I can think of no other nation in the world with such a wonderful opportunity.

The Scottish contribution to the world, whether in engineering, invention, industry or finance, has been astounding. Think Adam Smith, Alexander Fleming, John Logie Baird, James Watt. You cannot doubt Scottish talent - they are a formidable people. But they do not dominate the global stage as they once did. There will be a tough period of adjustment to get through, yes, but independent, living off their tax base, with dynamism and self-belief restored, they can do so once again.

But, first, they must make the right choices.


Now cue the Braveheart gifs and sign the petition

 

Jurec84

Member
Oct 27, 2017
291
I support Scottish independence, though I have no say in it, since I don't live there :(
 

kami_sama

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,007
It seems as if they always get the short stick when the UK government does it's thing.
So yeah, I support it.
 

MrS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,085
I do. They shouldn't be forced to stay in the union if they want out. They should get another referendum.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,695
It'd be financially devastating for us, it'd cripple the country similar to how Brexit is going to cripple the UK. We wont have any trade deal leverage with the rUK and will be fucked over when making those deals.

But yeah. At least when we eventually get through that the possibility of more left wing governments helping rebuild it rather than what's happening to the UK because of England/Wales is worth it. It has become clearer and clearer over the years that politically Scotland differs massively from the UK as a whole. We're not some bastion of Lefties and Lefty policies like some people try to make us out to be but we're damn closer to it than the UK is.

Is this poll legally binding?
Only if Yes wins.
 

MidweekCoyote

Member
Mar 23, 2018
865
I don't know what the poll is supposed to achieve given a lot of us aren't Scottish or even British to begin with.

I'd personally be extremely happy with an EU Scotland, but the only thing I openly 'support' is a legal democratic mandate to begin the process.
 

Gareth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,463
Norn Iron
In 2014 I'd have said no, but since then with Brexit and England going more Tory, I'd support Scotland leaving the UK and rejoining the EU if that's what they decide.
 

Zushin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,117
Australia
I'm Australian so have no say in the matter but I'd strongly support Scottish independence should the Scots vote that way. It's clear Westminster does not have Scotland's best interests at heart.
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
I've already read some articles discussing where the ferries from Scotland should dock in Holland, so we are ready for you OP!
 
OP
OP
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
I don't know what the poll is supposed to achieve given a lot of us aren't Scottish or even British to begin with.

I'd personally be extremely happy with an EU Scotland, but the only thing I openly 'support' is a legal democratic mandate to begin the process.

You don't need to vote in it lol. I think I added enough to the OP so even those who aren't in the UK or Scotland can chime in.

But the poll is for anyone, anyway. It's possible to support Scotland leaving the UK even if you aren't British. It's not like this is the actual indyref vote 😋

Where's the options for 'let Scotland decide'?

Okay, I'll add something like that.
 

Gallows Bat

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
343
I think it would be a terrible decision both for Scotland and the UK, however I understand why people want it and I'd support another referendum. Glad I moved abroad and have no intention of coming back any time soon.
 

johancruijff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,233
Italy
i've lived in Glasgow more than 10 years ago and even then the independence discussions were hilarious for someone with no stake in it
so i want to say yes but i have to witness the build up to it
 

Symphony

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,361
As someone from England, yes. We (as in, those in power of the country) lied to you, treated your country with contempt, ignored your opinion and then want to lock you in when you say you've had enough of us.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,483
England should have a referendum on whether to kick Scotland out

Ditto for Northern Ireland. Let's see how the Brit weebs react to being rejected by senpai.
 

手加減 TG

Member
Dec 11, 2019
890
I initially said "Yes" but then I remembered that losing Scotland from the UK would mean a conservative government for all eternity. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
I don't like nationalism, but the union shouldn't be a prison.
They gotta do what they gotta do, and if i was them i would fucking leg it.
 

Fizzgig

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,767
I'm English but have lived in Scotland since 2002, and I am very much for independence.
 

WorldofMiku

attempted ban circumvention by using an alt
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
824
I choose no but I support them having another Indyref.

I want the UK to be the UK as is. But I don't blame Scotland for wanting out.
 
OP
OP
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
I initially said "Yes" but then I remembered that losing Scotland from the UK would mean a conservative government for all eternity. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Proportional representation should be what is fought for. The Scottish Government uses proportional representation.



The SNP would vote to introduce proportional representation for Westminster elections, Nicola Surgeon has confirmed.

The Scottish First Minister said that she supported electoral reform despite her party being set to do very well out of the current system.

"I believe strongly in proportional representation. I believe there should be a direct relationship between the percentage of votes a party wins and the percentage of seats they win in whatever parliament the election is for," she said. "The polls suggest that my party might do well under first past the post on Thursday but I think if you believe in something in principle you should believe in that regardless of whether your party benefits from the current system."


As for the point about us helping England, sadly, even when we do return 1 Tory MP which we did for a stint of about 20+ years, it barely helps England given how fierce the Conservative vote is in the south.

Even if Corbyn had managed a minority Labour Government propped up by the SNP, at most it would have helped get a Brexit people's vote. EVEL makes it the case a minority UK Government propped up by Scottish MPs is probably going to fail (more so if it was requiring nearly all the SNP MPs to make a majority), resulting in another general election getting called.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
My preferred option if i could lord it over everyone would be to federalise the English regions and the UK.
 

8bit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,390
On a kind of related note, Stuart Campbell seems to have had his Wings Over Scotland account permabanned from Twitter.
 

Naarmight

Member
Oct 27, 2017
669
I also want the UK to be the UK, and previously would have been against it. But after the absolute disaster the past few years have been, I cannot blame them for wanting out. I am fairly certain that a new referendum will see them leave the UK, so let them have at it
 
OP
OP
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
My preferred option if i could lord it over everyone would be to federalise the English regions and the UK.

We were basically promised federalisation in 2014, or as near to it as possible. Even the damn Lib Dems pointed out it had not been delivered

Sir Edward Davey indicated "dev max" proposals – promised by his party leader Nick Clegg, as well as Prime Minister David Cameron and Labour leader Gordon Brown in 2014 – had not been kept.

In a newspaper interview published yesterday Davey was pressed on what greater devolution would look like.

He said: "I would work with the Scottish Liberal Democrats and wider Scottish politics to get that final settlement and take max devolution type proposals further forward, it was promised in the Scottish independence referendum and we have got to make sure that that agenda is fully delivered."


And the English wonder why the Scottish dislike Gordon Brown. Let alone Clegg and Cameron, *shudders*.

But the Lib Dem candidate above went on to say

Davey also suggested he would move to block a second independence referendum were his party to hold the balance of power.

"Lib Dems should always be prepared to work across parties, but there are some red lines," he said.

"I would not work with a Brexit Conservative party ... I cannot work with a very left-wing, Brexit-loving Jeremy Corbyn Labour Party. And I wouldn't sacrifice the unity of my country," he told the Press and Journal.

He added he would be in favour of advancing "devo max" proposals. "I very much believe in a federal Britain and having huge devolution in Scotland, always have, always will," Davey said. "I'm very much in favour of Scotland having the powers that it needs."

So the Lib Dems were moaning the Vow wasn't delivered, but then turn around and say they'd block an independence vote and *checks notes* go back and beg for the Vow again?

And voters wonder why the Lib Dems, let alone Labour, don't win anything in Scotland.

Boris Johnson is not delivering "devo max", time for people to get their heads out their arses.