Do you believe in God?

[Ushay]

I guess most people are in the 'Don't Know, Don't Care' boat.
I was in that boat for a while, but have swayed toward being a Theist. It just makes sense to me now, all those laws physics/chemistry etc, principles and the general balance of the universe can't be coincidence.

Generally speaking, I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want.

 

[plagiarize]

Yeah, it's all semantics. I've often used the Greek god analogy: just because I can't prove that Zeus doesn't exist, doesn't mean I'm Zeus agnostic. You can't prove a negative.

Agnostic implies that your worldview allows for the possibility. An "agnostic atheist" is still ultimately a religious position. I'm not religious, therefore I kind of have to be gnostic.

But you could spend the rest of eternity debating this and take any position imaginable and probably still be able to justify whatever label you want, so ultimately just go with a label that doesn't involve being a dick to people.

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Very very sound advice.

 

[carlosrox]

Do you know what natural selection /environmental adaptation is. we evolve based on our surroundings not the other way around, that's why everything seems so perfectly hit because evolution is the guiding force for life in the universe. Everything works because it's for the betterment of our life, that goes for every single living species on this planet. Millions of years of natural selection. sure you've heard of survival of the fittest.

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I think I'd rather say that skeletons or nervous systems have a function rather than a purpose. They exist today because they have aided the various species in their survival throughout the process of evolution and not because someone or something figured we would need it. Take this for instance: Our skeletons still have a tailbone, but we don't have a tail anymore. Our ancestors didn't benefit from having tails, and over time the tails were reduced to nothing. It's essentially the same with any other part of our bodies or nature.

The reason why we see things as fitting together so well in nature, or everything seemingly having a function is because all the things that didn't have died out, basically.

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Yes, but what is the force that governs these changes?

Evolution is just the name we give this force so us humans can have some form of understanding.

Science can explain the what, but what about the why?

It's like instinct. It always just feels like a copout explanation. "Oh it's just instinct". But what controls this instinct?

Ps. I'm the kind of person who questions EVERYTHING. I don't adhere to any one belief system. The only thing I feel is that this isn't all an accident. And I also think it's a bit arrogant for humans to think we have all the answers (we admit that we don't actually) when we are but a speck in the universe.

 

[Deleted member 23212]

Yeah, it's all semantics. I've often used the Greek god analogy: just because I can't prove that Zeus doesn't exist, doesn't mean I'm Zeus agnostic. You can't prove a negative.

Agnostic implies that your worldview allows for the possibility. An "agnostic atheist" is still ultimately a religious position. I'm not religious, therefore I kind of have to be gnostic.

But you could spend the rest of eternity debating this and take any position imaginable and probably still be able to justify whatever label you want, so ultimately just go with a label that doesn't involve being a dick to people.

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How is being an agnostic atheist a religious position? It's like the same as aliens. Sure, they may exist, but I'm not going to believe in them until they're proven to.

 

[DeaDPooL_jlp]

Raised catholic, spent years in the Pentecostal church, but no I do not believe in God. For both personal and logical reasons I simply can't.

 

[carlosrox]

It's like the same as aliens. Sure, they may exist, but I'm not going to believe in them until they're proven to.

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We are aliens.

I think you mean "are we alone in the universe?" and the very idea of Earth being the only place in the universe with any life is appalling to me.

There are countless planets, stars, and even galaxies out there. The chances that there is something else out there is basically 100% and it seems to me most scientists agree with that.

We still find new shit on our very planet on a daily basis. Yet some people think we know what's going on in the planet next to us, or even in other galaxies? That's truly ridiculous to me.

Nothing wrong with you waiting for the evidence, just saying that in my mind its more or less a done deal.

 

[Mona]

Yes, but what is the force that governs these changes?

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they are emergent results based on the structure of reality, there is no force 'governing' them in that way i dont think

me and my brother programmed an AI to play euchre, and then for teams all we did was make 2 AIs share the same score, and the AIs just naturally started working together, there was no new force that told them to do that, it was an emergent property based off the parameters, there wasn't anything we did that was guiding them into working together, it was simply the laws of logic taking our rule-set to its logical conclusion

evolution is not a force, its merely the emergent result of the interaction between the natural forces

 

[hjort]

Yes, but what is the force that governs these changes?

Evolution is just the name we give this force so us humans can have some form of understanding.

Science can explain the what, but what about the why?

It's like instinct. It always just feels like a copout explanation. "Oh it's just instinct". But what controls this instinct?

Ps. I'm the kind of person who questions EVERYTHING. I don't adhere to any one belief system. The only thing I feel is that this isn't all an accident. And I also think it's a bit arrogant for humans to think we have the all answers (we admit that we don't actually) when we are but a speck in the universe.

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First you would have to demonstrate that it is a matter of a force governing these things in the first place (and define what you mean by 'force' so that we don't talk past each other, I suppose). It's kind of the same with your 'why'-question. Does there have to be a 'why'? What points towards there being a 'why'?

You may feel that there has to be a god of some kind, but feelings are hardly a reliable method of finding out what is true or not. If we care about what we believe is true (and I'm not implying that you don't care, I'm just speaking in general terms here) we need to look to other ways of reaching a conclusion.

I don't think that humans have all the answers, and that is kind of the point. It's perfectly fine to say "I don't know" and leave things at that. Sometimes it's the only intellectually honest position to take.

 

[nanhacott]

How is being an agnostic atheist a religious position? It's like the same as aliens. Sure, they may exist, but I'm not going to believe in them until they're proven to.

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Like I said, it's a question of worldview.

Back to the Zeus metaphor, if someone asked you if you believed in Zeus and you said no, are you agnostic or gnostic in regard to Greek gods? You could say that you're agnostic, since you can't prove they don't exist. But do you live in such a way that accounts for the possibility of it?

If you take the position that the Greek gods probably don't exist, but you won't take a hard stance because you can't prove it, that's a religious position. It's a value greater than zero on the scale of belief. If your level of belief is actually zero, I'd say that's gnostic.

Semantics can make this debate go all over the map. If you consider it a hard rule that any unprovable negative idea is, by definition, agnostic, then gnosticism doesn't really exist outside of cases of self-delusion. But I've always preferred a softer definition.

 

[Deleted member 23212]

We are aliens.

I think you mean "are we alone in the universe?" and the very idea of Earth being the only place in the universe with any life is appalling to me.

There are countless planets, stars, and even galaxies out there. The chances that there is something else out there is basically 100% and it seems to me most scientists agree with that.

We still find new shit on our very planet on a daily basis. Yet some people think we know what's going on in the planet next to us, or even in other galaxies? That's truly ridiculous to me.

Nothing wrong with you waiting for the evidence, just saying that in my mind its more or less a done deal.

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We are aliens? As far as I'm aware we didn't come from another planet to this one. And ridiculous or not, there's no point in believing in them until they are proven to exist.

Like I said, it's a question of worldview.

Back to the Zeus metaphor, if someone asked you if you believed in Zeus and you said no, are you agnostic or gnostic in regard to Greek gods? You could say that you're agnostic, since you can't prove they don't exist. But do you live in such a way that accounts for the possibility of it?

If you take the position that the Greek gods probably don't exist, but you won't take a hard stance because you can't prove it, that's a religious position. It's a value greater than zero on the scale of belief. If your level of belief is actually zero, I'd say that's gnostic.

Semantics can make this debate go all over the map. If you consider it a hard rule that any unprovable negative idea is, by definition, agnostic, then gnosticism doesn't really exist outside of cases of self-delusion. But I've always preferred a softer definition.

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I didn't talk about specific gods, I meant the concept of a god in general. Of course the Greek gods/Abrahamic God don't exist, there is just too much contradictions within scripture and with our world to not be the case.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

If you still think people believe in god because they need answers to how the world was created, than you are pretty ignorant.

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Flat earthers aren't a thing, huh?

 

[Wackamole]

Yes, but what is the force that governs these changes?

Evolution is just the name we give this force so us humans can have some form of understanding.

Science can explain the what, but what about the why?

It's like instinct. It always just feels like a copout explanation. "Oh it's just instinct". But what controls this instinct?

Ps. I'm the kind of person who questions EVERYTHING. I don't adhere to any one belief system. The only thing I feel is that this isn't all an accident. And I also think it's a bit arrogant for humans to think we have all the answers (we admit that we don't actually) when we are but a speck in the universe.

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it's mutation and the effect that has on adaptation. Largely a "shit happens" thing. Evolution is just change. Not always an improvement. Of course some changes can give an advantage (for instance, the first white born bears in an arctic environment) and then the specimens with that advantage have a bigger chance of surviving.
The only reason you think there is a force behind is, is because you want all things to have a purpose, especially your own life. Or that's my guess anyway.

Those small mutations can be caused by different things... an accidental mutation (sometimes a cell division just goes wrong), a mutation caused by chemical imbalance, environmental changess, diseases, etc.

 

[plow]

Flat earthers aren't a thing, huh?

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I'll have to clarify i guess.

Having an answer to how the world was created, isn't the main reason why people believe in the christian god.

 

[Snack12367]

I don't know about any of that, but if we agree that something cannot come from nothing, then either the same should apply to any "god" or the universe could have been born from an earlier universe. So if something cannot come from nothing, then how can a "god" come from nothing?

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Sure. I mean this is the great paradox and at the very least, I'm not going to cheat the conversation by falling back on the god is above it all somehow.

 

[Duane]

I can't imagine that anyone's dogma has their divine story right, but I assume the entire nature of existence includes things that we can't perceive, imagine, or even have any hints about. I bet we're like ants who might be crawling on the page of a book, but don't know that there are ideas printed on the page, or that humans exist or anything beyond their scope. There's probably some bigger wider deeper scope we can't consider because we don't even know anything except our own facet.

 

[SliceSabre]

Closest on that scale to me would be Agnostic Theist.

I do think I believe in God and generally the teachings of God and Jesus Christ, but I guess I'm also disillusioned and at the same time and believe that God exists and he doesn't give a damn about us anymore, if he ever did at all, and that whatever the Bible says cannot be fully trusted because it was written by man who most certainly has his biases and things certainly have been changed over the countless years.

I used to go to Pentecostal and Non-Denominational Christian churches when I was younger and was extremely faithful, but that changed when I got older. Was turned off by things pastors told me and various other things about the church during difficult points in my life.

 

[Clefargle]

Sure. I mean this is the great paradox and at the very least, I'm not going to cheat the conversation by falling back on the god is above it all somehow.

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Right, so my knowledge of reality *before* the Big Bang is currently limited and it may not ever be elucidated. So I've got to default to I don't know. Which is honest.

 

[carlosrox]

We are aliens?

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If any other organism exists somewhere else in this universe than we are aliens, yes.

We would be aliens to any other planet and vice versa.

If there is a single microbe on another planet then we are all aliens.

 

[Deleted member 23212]

If any other organism exists somewhere else in this universe than we are aliens, yes.

We would be aliens to any other planet and vice versa.

If there is a single microbe on another planet then we are all aliens.

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Which again, I don't believe, so...?

 

[Mona]

Which again, I don't believe, so...?

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the aliens believe in you, thats what counts

 

[Bubukill]

I was raised being Catholic, and I still live with my Catholic family. However, with time, especially since I became an adult almost 9 years ago, I've not been a follower.

The last time I went to church was almost 5 years ago and I undeniably felt a bit uncomfortable and misplaced. When I was inside the church, I had this inevitable thought of "what if all of this ended up just being a fantasy".

My thoughts have changed to this neutrality thought of "I'm leaning more toward science but a true all entity who created everything cannot discarded".

My mother has implied I've become an atheist but my family attitude regarding my belief is generally like "let him live and let him deal with it till he finally finds god at one point of his life sooner or later".


My aunt clearly knows that science must be put into consideration alongside religion, so she understands the uncertain.

 

[Tawpgun]

Agnostic just seems like a shitty half measure. Every atheist is an agnostic more or less. Or should be.

You are atheist until you have direct proof of God, then, being a rational person, you would (for lack of a better term) believe in God/higher power.

That's how I feel anyway. Atheist, I think the natural world is already more beautiful/wonderous that associating it to being created sort of cheapens it. You can derive spirituality from science/nature without needing to go supernatural.

 

[Deleted member 25671]

Yes

 

[Stinkinmushroom]

I guess most people are in the 'Don't Know, Don't Care' boat.
I was in that boat for a while, but have swayed toward being a Theist. It just makes sense to me now, all those laws physics/chemistry etc, principles and the general balance of the universe can't be coincidence.

Generally speaking, I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want.

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They are not a coincidence. And there is no balance. Stars blow up, black holes sucks, etc all the time.

 

[Fireclad]

I suppose I fall into the category of "gnostic theist."

I'm pretty openly Wicca and my views are generally polytheistic. I'm at a point where I've seen and experienced enough that I don't really entertain questions of whether the gods exist or not. I have a thousand questions as to the nature of their being, their teachings, and although what I believe about them may be somewhat unusual, no. No, I do not doubt the existence of the old gods.

 

[Browser]

Wow you guys kept enabling Atisha way after it was clear he was either just trolling or clearly showed lack of basic knowledge to even begin a serious conversation about evolution.

You know, this shows me we have a real need to hear from other types of thinking on things like this we can engage with in a civil manner. I wonder if, like with the climate change acientist, we can get a scientist that claims to disprove evolution to do a Q&A?

 

[adj_noun]

I wonder if, like with the climate change acientist, we can get a scientist that claims to disprove evolution to do a Q&A?

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They'd be too busy collecting their Nobel Prize to talk to us.

Unless, of course, they're a fraud.

 

[Pwnz]

I'm just agnostic, I don't choose to believe one way or another. But I'm not apathetic, I ponder the nature of our reality and life on a regular basis. There simply isn't enough data to choose a side.

One of the things I'm leaning towards right now is that conciousness is an illusion. We came to be after infinite space time, and I don't think there is a start and end to time, that's just a lazy appeal to our limited minds...there most likely is infinite space time. So assuming pure physics and randomness, you'll happen again. Given how ruthless nature is most likely it will be a horrible life, so I try to take advantage of the life I have until unwittingly I happen again.

 

[Bramblebutt]

Wow you guys kept enabling Atisha way after it was clear he was either just trolling or clearly showed lack of basic knowledge to even begin a serious conversation about evolution.

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I just wanted to understand the divinity of Bill and Ted

 

[aerozombie]

I am an atheist, but I am not a hard atheist, so I have no belief, but I don't make the assertion of non-existence. I think some god beliefs can be asserted as non-existent, but a blanket assertion of non-existence is not tenable.

Hell, as long as solipsism is unbeatable we can't truly know anything for certain. We have to use the fake certainty for practicality.

 

[Eros]

Not really. I believe in science, and I do believe that there could be something inexplicable that caused the big bang to happen. But I don't believe in a bearded white guy that created us in his image and wants us to read the right book and follow those rules otherwise we suffer for eternity. I don't believe when we die it's just nothing. I can't even fathom what a nothingness existence is. But I also don't believe in any depictions of the afterlife. Reincarnation I could get with, but it's not like that's my official belief.

I guess I don't believe in nothing, but I don't believe in anything specific either.

 

[Browser]

They'd be too busy collecting their Nobel Prize to talk to us.

Unless, of course, they're a fraud.

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Oh yeah for sure, but there seems to be a real appetite here for us to engage with someone who at least can try to present a case. It would be interesting.

I just wanted to understand the divinity of Bill and Ted

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Imagine their last supper?

 

[Treestump]

Yes, I believe in God.

 

[iswasdoes]

Interpersonal, anthropomorphic god that judges you - don't be stupid

Nondescript Power/force beyond the reach of empirical science - entirely possible

When we find god, it will probably be more like an equation than a big white man.

 

[carlosrox]

Which again, I don't believe, so...?

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You think it's just us in the entire universe?

Earth just so happens to be the only place in the universe where life is? And we're not just sorta okay at creating life, we apparently excel at it with millions upon millions of species, going on million and millions (billions?) of years!?

I find that extremely hard to believe.

Ps. Not judging you, I don't care what others believe. I don't even really care what I believe in.

 

[Deleted member 23212]

You think it's just us in the entire universe?

Earth just so happens to be the only place in the universe where life is? And we're not just sorta okay at creating life, we apparently excel at it with millions upon millions of species, going on million and millions (billions?) of years!?

I find that extremely hard to believe.

Ps. Not judging you, I don't care what others believe. I don't even really care what I believe in.

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Show me species that exist from other planets and I'll believe it.

 

[Browser]

Show me species that exist from other planets and I'll believe it.

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When we colonize the moon and mars, I expect we will be able to find living organisms in the lakes. Single cell or multicell. That will be a monumental discovery.

Also there is a theory that states the building blocks of life came to earth from asteroids. So in a sense, we would be from space.

I guess the point is, the probability is high. Even if we didnt find it yet.

 

[Deleted member 23212]

When we colonize the moon and mars, I expect we will be able to find living organisms in the lakes. Single cell or multicell. That will be a monumental discovery.

Also there is a theory that states the building blocks of life came to earth from asteroids. So in a sense, we would be from space.

I guess the point is, the probability is high. Even if we didnt find it yet.

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I don't want probability, I want certainty.

 

[AzureFlame]

Yes i do and he must be something that is beyond our human brains because he's the one created them and we can't know what he didn't put in our brains, so yeah it's simple logic for me.

 

[Mona]

You think it's just us in the entire universe?

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he didn't say that, he said he doesn't believe aliens exist

not believing that aliens exist =/= believing aliens dont exist

just want to make sure everyone is on the same page here

 

[Browser]

I don't want probability, I want certainty.

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Yeah we are decades away from maybe getting to a point to get that.

 

[Keuja]

Science and probability are not a matter of faith.
In our current, limited state of understanding of the world, statically, it is highly likely that somewhere, at one point in the history of the universe, non-earth organisms exist/have existed.
It not really a debate or a question, you either accept it or, because of religious reasons, choose to reject a conclusion which is based on probability and statistics. But then it becomes a matter of faith, not logic or science which is fine as well.

 

[Boiled Goose]

No absolutely no.
I know that when bad shit happens, that this is bad. This is more like: "even when shit happens, everything will be alright and turn out good".
Like i wont twist hypothetically me loosing my job into something good, but as a christian i know ( or believe ) that god has prepared something better for me.

Also this part



Of course i can't show you my experiences with God, and even if i told you about mine you would insist in them being coincidences or my own earnings. But i don't feel that way.

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So when good things happen it's because of god, but then bad things happen it isn't?

So when you're a christian mother and your daughter gets kidnapped and brutally murdered and raped, god has something better prepared for them? Please tell me how that could result in something better. If it can't or doesn't, please tell me why it happened. If something kinda good does happen to the mom, then was the daughter sacrificed for the good of the mom!?

That's what I mean by how that type of belief leads to disgusting moral issues.

On the second point. Yes. They are not demonstrable. Hence why they are not rationally justified belief. If I told you I win at gambling when I wear my lucky magical underwear because it's magical, do you believe me? Should I believe it myself?

How about we design an experiment to see if it's not coincidence?

 

[Boiled Goose]

How is being an agnostic atheist a religious position? It's like the same as aliens. Sure, they may exist, but I'm not going to believe in them until they're proven to.

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Nah. It's different than aliens. Belief in Gods is far less justified. Life existing in nature is demonstrable. We somewhat understand the natural processes that can result in life developing.

If gods by their definition are "supernatural" then that is a much higher standard. The supernatural doesn't have a demonstration (honestly don't even know what supernatural is or how it could be demonstrated). So yes belief in aliens existing is maybe not currently justified, but belief in the possibility is justified. The same can't be said for God's. The possibility isn't justified there.

 

[Mona]

im kind of wondering why we dont see more arguments between theists in threads like this

atheists for the most part simply aren't convinced by the claims, but theists by definition think that competing theistic claims are flat out false

i'd honestly like to see that perspective more often, although now that i think about it i guess it just ends up looking like this

 

[Duxxy3]

I don't believe in god. 100%.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

Agnostic theist. I don't believe in any religious gods that I have knowledge of but do think there's a strong possibility of something that is sort of an infinite energy that fits the criteria of being "god" itself that created everything but is not concerned with us as the universe itself is considered possibly infinite. I liken the idea of "god" being man made concept but err on the side of there being something and our conscience being sort of linked to it in some way.

 

[BakedTanooki]

Never heard about apatheist before, but looks like that's me then.
The question about if there is a certain "God" or not, doesn't matter to me anymore. The bible for example: That's just a history book to me, mixed with cool and strange stories, written and delivered by people who were probably high, mentally ill etc. I believe in the methods of science, the laws of physics etc. as long as we can further explore, test and proof things about our universe and how things do work with our current available methods. I could imagine it's more likely that we are just a simulation, maybe even created by another simulation, than the possibility that there is some God (especially the one described in various religions)

 

[Elandyll]

Like I said, it's a question of worldview.

Back to the Zeus metaphor, if someone asked you if you believed in Zeus and you said no, are you agnostic or gnostic in regard to Greek gods? You could say that you're agnostic, since you can't prove they don't exist. But do you live in such a way that accounts for the possibility of it?

If you take the position that the Greek gods probably don't exist, but you won't take a hard stance because you can't prove it, that's a religious position. It's a value greater than zero on the scale of belief. If your level of belief is actually zero, I'd say that's gnostic.

Semantics can make this debate go all over the map. If you consider it a hard rule that any unprovable negative idea is, by definition, agnostic, then gnosticism doesn't really exist outside of cases of self-delusion. But I've always preferred a softer definition.

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That's some serious mental gymnastics, and play on semantics.

Contrary to what one might think, the absence of belief is not equal to the belief of absence.

So no, Agnostic Atheism (or Gnostic for that matter) is not a religious position.
It is literally the absence of one.

 

[Sunster]

ya i do. hohoho