Do you agree with Sylvie's decision? [Loki Spoilers]

[jman1954goat]

Just finished the Loki Final and man am I conflicted.

They were in a No win scenario where both of there options Sucked.

Option 1
Keeping He Who Remains Alive and running the Scared timeline is very much Morally Wrong.

You would be potentially taking away free will in the way He who remains has been doing. Even if free will is not being impeded You are Killing Infinite amounts of people as You Prune Every new timeline that pops up.

there will be countless more people like Sylvie who are pruned simply because they accidently broke the sacred timeline.

Option 2
You Kill He Who Remains and Great and create potential Infinite amount of Variants of a Supremely Powerful villains.

You potentially plunge the Universe into another Multiverse war where you are in danger of a Even more Evil He Who Remains is the victor with unimaginable destruction potentially to come as the Variants Fight each other and anyone who gets in the way.

It's a Tough Choice either Way.

 

[Alec]

If true free will means the destruction of reality, then so be it I guess.

 

[Whitemex]

Yeah. Now we gonna get crazy one off marvel movies

 

[rjinaz]

I understand why she did what she did. Us the audience also had more information and context of the situation that Sylvie did. She really had no reason to believe He who Remains.

She shouldn't however have turned on Loki, but, it is what it is. She wanted revenge and she got it.

I'm not so sure what He Who Remains was doing was exactly benevelant or a realistic solution. I mean the dude was committing mass genocide when you really think about it.

What the dude did also prevented an outside factor, like the Avengers, from ever coming forward to stop somebody like Kang. Which, as we all know, will ultimately be what happens now in the future.

It was was a bandaid that couldn't stay on forever. He just temporarily removed the problem instead of fixing it.

So, I hate to say it, but yes, she did the right thing, but, for the wrong reasons.

 

[Halbrand]

No but I understand it

 

[antonz]

Its tough. I mean He says the whole point of the journey was to grow and change. Loki clearly does grow and change. Sylvie though in the end remains the same and actually accomplished nothing from her arc other than maybe realizing she should change but is unwilling to do so.

He does spell it out in the end. I will be back here if it all goes to multiversal war. So the TVA may in fact be a thing that cannot be avoided and the 2 Loki may in fact allow for a looser timeline that is not so damning as He who remains was.

 

[Deleted member 13798]

We're assuming that that version of Kang was telling the truth in full, but in the case that he was, no I'd not do what she does.

 

[Matrix Monkey]

Wouldn't allowing a Multiverse create more life than the war it causes would be able to destroy?

 

[jman1954goat]

We're assuming that that version of Kang was telling the truth in full.

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Yes of course He could easily be lying but just for this thread/Poll let's assume he is telling the truth about how things work.

 

[gozu]

Silvi doused people in oil and burned them alive as she watched.

She must justify all her atrocities by killing he who remains. Otherwise...she was wrong the whole time and she is a villain. A hypocrite. A serial murderer.

Loki on the other hand, has killed very few people by that time. And certainly not through torture.

The correct choice was obviously to rule the TVA in nicer way. Maybe just take the variants to Hawaii and let them live there.

 

[rjinaz]

We're assuming that that version of Kang was telling the truth in full, but in the case that he was, no I'd not do what she does.

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I also seriously doubt the two had the desire or the ability to really run things to keep Kang completely out of the picture. It might have been a few years, but I think ultimately, this happens one way or the other. I mean Sylvie didn't believe it to begin with.

 

[sprsk]

You either choose to believe him or not.

Loki made the choice to believe, Sylvie did not, and at the time, there was no way to know which was the right decision.

In the end Sylvie made the decision that was right for her, and I can't fault her for that. Who knows, the multiversal war may end up being the lesser of two evils?

Anyway, I'd kill him. Actively trying to keep this ultimate evil from being born for basically eternity is a fool's errand. If it wasn't me, it'd be someone else. And once it happens, when or where or who won't matter.

 

[Parthenios]

He Who Remains' plan to prevent the destruction of the multiverse was to destroy the multiverse. As Tony Stark said to Loki a few days prior, "Not a great plan."

 

[Deleted member 224]

It was the wrong choice.


They could have used the information Immortus gave them, taken over the TVA, and then worked on a plan to deal with Kang before branching the timeline

 

[kyle mechlachlan]

I generally side with the chaos option.

 

[Digital Dinosaur]

Consider the lifespan of a Loki - similar to an Asgardian. This means that Sylvie had spent perhaps 2000 years after escaping the TVA as a child, on the run, living in disasters. Basically every person she ever talked to or got to know as an adult was a doomed victim about to die. While she is capable of acting calm and rational, she must be suffering from inconceivable PTSD.

Anything that sets her off would summon all that hatred and rage, so there's probably no way she couldn't have killed HWR. He was the personal representative of her torment.

 

[HeySeuss]

Peter Quill agrees

 

[MadLaughter]

I think that it was the right choice for her to make NARRATIVELY. The director pointed out that she is basically similar to Loki from the first Thor movie: all pain and resentment and a need to find a way to feel better. She hasn't had that pep talk from mobius, she hasn't seen how her life ends, hasn't seen what her life choices had led to (death of mother, father, loss of Asgard).

Based on how Loki ages she presumably lived hundreds of years on the run from people trying to kill her, and the man responsible is right in front of her. And the guy doesn't care at all. How many kids has he kidnapped and pruned and deleted? They abso-LUTELY sent kinds into the void who were then killed by Alioth.

And he tried to deceive them with the whole Timekeepers thing, so he was already a known liar. And had said that he lied earlier in the conversation.

She had no reason to trust the guy that had kidnapped her as a child and hunted her her entire life. His whole argument is "If you kill me, someone worse will come along". Well to her, how could someone be worse?

 

[oofouchugh]

What else was she gonna do, she has been trying to do this her entire life.

 

[jman1954goat]

You either choose to believe him or not.

Loki made the choice to believe, Sylvie did not, and at the time, there was no way to know which was the right decision.

In the end Sylvie made the decision that was right for her, and I can't fault her for that. Who knows, the multiversal war may end up being the lesser of two evils?

Anyway, I'd kill him. Actively trying to keep this ultimate evil from being born for basically eternity is a fool's errand. If it wasn't me, it'd be someone else. And once it happens, when or where or who won't matter.

Click to shrink...

I mean even if you believe him 100% there is still a good argument for Killing him.

 

[Halbrand]

Consider the lifespan of a Loki - similar to an Asgardian. This means that Sylvie had spent perhaps 2000 years after escaping the TVA as a child, on the run, living in disasters. Basically every person she ever talked to or got to know as an adult was a doomed victim about to die. While she is capable of acting calm and rational, she must be suffering from inconceivable PTSD.

Anything that sets her off would summon all that hatred and rage, so there's probably no way she couldn't have killed HWR. He was the personal representative of her torment.

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Not disagreeing on your point but technically Loki was just over 1000 years old and Sylvie could have been any age

 

[Magic-Man]

It's a hard choice, but yeah I'd do the same thing. Even knowing the consequences ahead of time.

 

[Slayven]

Some motherfuckers just need killing

 

[nicolasacmf]

I understand her choice because it was a personal one, it's the only choice she could possibly make at the time. That said, I can also see Loki's side of things because, considering all the information they had just become privy to, anyone not that personally invested in the issue would think to formulate a plan that goes beyond "stab guy".

 

[Slayven]

We're assuming that that version of Kang was telling the truth in full, but in the case that he was, no I'd not do what she does.

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You think people would figure that out from the TVA.

 

[Imperial Bishop]

She's spent thousands of years (or more) living around death and apocalypses, being constantly on the run.

Even if he was telling the truth, revenge is the option she was aiming for and her mind was made up. That kind of trauma can't be easily remedied with a lengthy explanation.

He Who Remains also didn't even try to apologize or make amends. Calling her a murderer and a hypocrite sure as hell didn't help. It was all apart of his plan to get one of them to take his place.

 

[krazen]

What else was she gonna do, she has been trying to do this her entire life.

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Yup. It's quite a bitter pill to swallow your whole life got ruined for a 'good' reason in the span of a thirty second decision, so its easier to believe the opposite to justify your revenge

 

[BossAttack]

This not a choice that has any real meaning. Because it exists inside the MCU and because we know the good guys will eventually always win, the ONLY correct choice is to kill Kang. Sure, it'll cause some momentary disruption and agony. But in the end our heroes will prevail, free will is going to be restored, and everything will be just right.

Without this framework, then I'd say that ruling the TVA is the correct choice as the cost of getting it wrong is the end of everything.

 

[Keywork]

With the setup of the multiverses could we potentially see Incursions down the line once the FF4 get introduced?

 

[jman1954goat]

Some motherfuckers just need killing

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Agreed. the main downside is now they have to kill him again, and again, and again Etc.

I understand her choice because it was a personal one, it's the only choice she could possibly make at the time. That said, I can also see Loki's side of things because, considering all the information they had just become privy to, anyone not that personally invested in the issue would think to formulate a plan that goes beyond "stab guy".

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Yeah even you pick to kill him (which is the option I voted for) they could have talked it out just a little bit more and come up with a plan for the aftermath.


Obviously Sylvie not trusting Loki takes this option away. (can't blame her imagine trusting Loki.)

 

[Slayven]

With the setup of the multiverses could we potentially see Incursions down the line once the FF4 get introduced?

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Not any time soon. That is total relaunching a franchise event, they aren't in DC spot.

 

[rjinaz]

I understand her choice because it was a personal one, it's the only choice she could possibly make at the time. That said, I can also see Loki's side of things because, considering all the information they had just become privy to, anyone not that personally invested in the issue would think to formulate a plan that goes beyond "stab guy".

Click to shrink...

I mean to be fair, the guy that was stabbed literally gave them only two options, and that was one of them.

Of course, it just so happens to be the only thing Sylvie really wanted to do anyway.

 

[jman1954goat]

This not a choice that has any real meaning. Because it exists inside the MCU and because we know the good guys will eventually always win, the ONLY correct choice is to kill Kang. Sure, it'll cause some momentary disruption and agony. But in the end our heroes will prevail, free will is going to be restored, and everything will be just right.

Click to shrink...

But the characters don't know this.

I am asking about the correct choice just given the info the characters have. the characters are not informed they are in a marvel show.

 

[BLACK LAC]

She was frustratingly stupid here. Should have taken her own advice when she said "This isn't about you"

Don't give a damn how bad she had it, she's allowing countless missery just to satisfy her own selfish needs.. The man proved you can't kill him but here he is allowing you to.... There is no lie there

 

[GreenMamba]

He Who Remains had a body count that was absolutely incalculable. Keeping the TVA running indefinitely meant feeding whole realities to a giant cloud monster... forever.

Sure he was preventing something really bad from happening... but I have a hard time seeing a multiversal war killing more than a perpetual TVA would.

 

[Anth0ny]

She's giving us Secret Wars

thank you queen

 

[BossAttack]

But the characters don't know this.

I am asking about the correct choice just given the info the characters have. the characters are not informed they are in a marvel show.

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Eh, the characters (or at least our Loki) knows that the Avengers exist. And unfortunately, I actually do not have the knowledge that Loki has in the show. Loki has lived for over a thousand years, seen all kinds of magic, met Dr. Strange, fought the Avengers, saw Thanos, etc. He has way more knowledge about the workings of his universe and the power players in it to judge whether or not the Avengers could overcome Kang and restore free will.

So, I can't really put myself in his shoes as he has knowledge I don't have access to.

 

[rjinaz]

He Who Remains had a body count that was absolutely incalculable. Keeping the TVA running indefinitely meant feeding whole realities to a giant cloud monster... forever.

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Yep. For all the Kangs he kept at bay, think of all the heroes and great people he killed to keep this balance, a balance that only HE had any idea or say over. How many Sylvies, or Aligator Lokis, or Thors, or Tonys did he kill?

He was a mass murderer just going about things a different way than a mass murdered like Kang would go about it. In the end though I feel the death count on his part has to be way more than anything somebody like Kang could manage and even if not, I still think it's better to let things play out where there is a chance things can end differently than the death of kazillions of people.

 

[nicolasacmf]

Yeah even you pick to kill him (which is the option I voted for) they could have talked it out just a little bit more and come up with a plan for the aftermath.


Obviously Sylvie not trusting Loki takes this option away. (can't blame her imagine trusting Loki.)

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Oh, absolutely. I feel like, considering what they had gone through, the ending honestly made perfect sense for both characters.

Loki had to face the consequences of his actions from the very first episode of the series - which, btw, was fantastic... the way Mobius made Loki sit there and face some of the ugly shit he had done, and how Loki's façade starts to fall apart after that. He's actually ashamed to see himself in that reel! Sylvie didn't have a moment like that, so for her it was not only justified, but fueled by her trauma. I can't blame her one bit.

And yeah, I picked kill as well lol.

I mean to be fair, the guy that was stabbed literally gave them only two options, and that was one of them.

Of course, it just so happens to be the only thing Sylvie really wanted to do anyway.

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Yeah, he made it easy for her and hard for Loki lol

 

[Tavernade]

I understand why she did it but I wish she and Loki had mulled it over a little more. If the main issue is that another Kang will come and destroy things, the third option seems to be ruling over the TVA and 'only' resetting timelines that get evil Kangs in them. Like, if he's born on Earth, any timeline without Earth is fine.

Realistically the universe doesn't need 'any' Kangs, so you could also simplify it and just find his original ancestor, have a sacred timeline until they show up, kill them, and then let multiverse chaos come right after.

As a bonus, taking a third option and solving the problem in a better way would probably humiliate Kang if you let him live long enough to see it.

 

[Slayven]

e.

Realistically the universe doesn't need 'any' Kangs, so you could also simplify it and just find his original ancestor, have a sacred timeline until they show up, kill them, and then let multiverse chaos come right after.

Click to shrink...

Why Reed got to catch a stray?

 

[hydruxo]

I can't really fault her too much for doing it given all she went through, but he did spell out what would happen in the aftermath in great detail. The thing is, Loki meets Sylvie at a point where she's still in the middle of her revenge rampage. She's never had anyone to talk to her about what she's gone through. So Sylvie is clearly still very traumatized and untrusting of everyone, and she chose to believe He Who Remains was lying and was never going to agree with letting him stay alive. And no matter how close her and Loki got, she probably wasn't going to start fully trusting him anytime soon either so trying to negotiate something was off the table.

It's a tough decision in the end so I don't know that there's a right decision. Can't really fault her for killing him (plus he's a mass murderer anyways), and I don't know that keeping him alive would really be ideal either.

 

[rjinaz]

There is also another possibility that given enough time, Loki very well may have come to the conclusion that his death was the right call. Loki really just wanted some time to think, which Sylvie wouldn't give him.

Though He Who Remains didn't really give them much time to make a decision anyway I suppose given that the timeline was already branching in just the few moments they had.

 

[jman1954goat]

I can't really fault her too much for doing it given all she went through, but he did spell out what would happen in the aftermath in great detail. The thing is, Loki meets Sylvie at a point where she's still in the middle of her revenge rampage. She's never had anyone to talk to her about what she's gone through. So Sylvie is clearly still very traumatized and untrusting of everyone, and she chose to believe He Who Remains was lying and was never going to agree with letting him stay alive. And no matter how close her and Loki got, she probably wasn't going to start fully trusting him anytime soon either so trying to negotiate something was off the table.

It's a tough decision in the end so I don't know that there's a right decision. Can't really fault her for killing him (plus he's a mass murderer anyways), and I don't know that keeping him alive would really be ideal either.

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There absolutely is No "Good" option in this situation. Its all trying to Navigate Two very Shitty options

 

[Lucas M. Thomas]

She made the choice that makes future Marvel movies and shows more interesting. Of course, that's because it wasn't a choice at all. Sylvie doesn't have free will — she's simply another servant of the Sacred Feige.

 

[jman1954goat]

While there are no doubt more evil variants of he who remains

Logic follows there will be less evil versions as potential allies

 

[carlsojo]

Couldn't you just like murder all of the he who remains

 

[zombiejames]

Nah, she fucked up. She let revenge get in the way of doing the sensible thing.

 

[VeryHighlander]

There's very little time for Sylvie to think things over, but I think even if given the time she would've killed him anyway. First of all he provides next to zero proof to his claims other than the "script". Second, even if he had solid evidence, he still forced Sylvie into a horrible life by trying to kidnap her as a child..

She wasn't in the wrong to do it. We as viewers know that HWR isn't lying. But there's no reason whatsoever for Sylvie to believe HWR at all. You reap what you sow.

 

[Dalek]

It made sense for her character but doing so bright her no peace and she's doomed the multiverse. The good thing is that with infinite Kangs comes infinite Avengers who can stop him.