I think it could be argued as Technological stagnation. I mean once you have achieved Cross Galactic travel with lightspeed etc. What is left besides like some weird ascendance to godhood type of thing some scifi goes for?
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Do you agree with James Gunn when it comes to Knights of the Old Republic?
- Thread starter SofNascimento
- Start date
Imo 3 of the worlds in it are great fun. Talos, Nar Shaddaa, Oderon/Duxun moon, but the ruined versions of Dantooine and Korriban aren't that exciting, neither is the very long mining facility at the beginning, or the 'christmas rushed' final act. I think it has some interesting writing but it's a mixed bag overall.
I'd say it's more about the characters and the main story (up to the Jedi Council) where it shines. The gameplay is what it is, but the story and characters are a fresh take one tired SW tropes that keep getting rolled out as we saw with the Sequels.
The only reason I am even slightly interested in that universe is because of KOTOR. I hope that reboot thing pans out well and we'll have another good Star Wars RPG in our hands.
Everyone who voted Option 1 is wrong. Because this one is the best one.
But the few hours I played KOTOR I really enjoyed, should get back to it. Very solid gameplay.
Another game I tried when I heard a lot about it was Jedi Knight II - didn't enjoy that one at all what I played so far.
But the few hours I played KOTOR I really enjoyed, should get back to it. Very solid gameplay.
Another game I tried when I heard a lot about it was Jedi Knight II - didn't enjoy that one at all what I played so far.
I'd be in for a more RE2Make style remake, personally.
Gameplay needs an overhaul along with visuals. D20 Tabletop was dated from the moment it came out, the interpretation on-offer in KOTOR isn't especially compelling, and good lord some of those level designs are just the worst. I wouldn't mind another pass at a lot of the VA, too.
It's got the bones of an excellent game, but the flesh needs to be stripped and replaced with dispassionate quadanium steel.
I actually kind of like Fallen Order slightly more but KOTOR manages to do something almost no other piece of Star wars media manages to do: it's both unique in the franchise and also hight quality / good. Most stars wars media is one or the other and very rarely is it both.
KOTOR 2 is amazing but since its a lampooning of star wars I hesitate to call it the best piece of star wars.
KOTOR 2 is amazing but since its a lampooning of star wars I hesitate to call it the best piece of star wars.
I recently replayed both games and I wish I didn't because they did not age well. Revan being super popular for the fandom does not surprise me because he basically is a self insert.
Ask yourself: how did ANH and ESB age throughout the years?
Now please vote accordingly.
Ask yourself: how did ANH and ESB age throughout the years?
Now please vote accordingly.
I would agree if he was talking about KOTOR 2. Cause even though 2 struggles a bit due to it being unfinished, its story and characters are way better imo.
Either KOTOR 2, Jedi Academy, or the Rogue Squadron games.
Either KOTOR 2, Jedi Academy, or the Rogue Squadron games.
KOTOR is fun and the twist is great, but it's far from perfect. The Sith don't feel evil, they act like high-school bullies. And most characters are pretty bland (well, there HK of course. But Carth or Bastila never seemed interesting to me, and Bastila turning to the dark side came out of nowhere)
KOTOR 2 is just a lot more interesting, and has the better characters (not even just Kreia. Atton or Visas, too. And the Sith Lords may be pretty OP, but they're OP in a really fascinating way that relates to their character)
KOTOR 2 is just a lot more interesting, and has the better characters (not even just Kreia. Atton or Visas, too. And the Sith Lords may be pretty OP, but they're OP in a really fascinating way that relates to their character)
I played both KotOR games twice which is more than I usually replay games. I think the first one gets bonus props for having that insane Sand People lore just like off in a corner in case you bothered to look. I have a hard time saying anything is "the best" but I'd definitely say they're tied with some of my other favorite Star Wars media.
The original movies are up there, but yeah, it is between those and Kotor for me. The rest I honestly don't have much love for.
I feel like the people who hate KOTOR II on the grounds that it's centrist would hate it dramatically less without the (admittedly dumb, ham-fisted) Nar Shaddaa scene.
I really like it (outside of the way it treats Revan as a warrior poet genius who predicted and planned for every eventuality). It's one of the few games I've played that seriously interrogates the consequences of war and violence without bludgeoning you with gore and forcing you to commit acts of escalating cruelty.
Whether you're playing a Jedi or Sith, KOTOR II is essentially about the psychological aftereffects of an atrocity your character committed. You and a number of your party members are war criminals (to varying degrees) burdened by the guilt and trauma of pointless, cyclical imperialist conflicts. It ends by forcing you to return to the burned-out husk of a world you destroyed - where all your efforts on behalf of the Republic have only spawned new horrors.
Like, looking at it retrospectively it seems very much a game of the Iraq War era in a way that's almost on the nose.
I really like it (outside of the way it treats Revan as a warrior poet genius who predicted and planned for every eventuality). It's one of the few games I've played that seriously interrogates the consequences of war and violence without bludgeoning you with gore and forcing you to commit acts of escalating cruelty.
Whether you're playing a Jedi or Sith, KOTOR II is essentially about the psychological aftereffects of an atrocity your character committed. You and a number of your party members are war criminals (to varying degrees) burdened by the guilt and trauma of pointless, cyclical imperialist conflicts. It ends by forcing you to return to the burned-out husk of a world you destroyed - where all your efforts on behalf of the Republic have only spawned new horrors.
Like, looking at it retrospectively it seems very much a game of the Iraq War era in a way that's almost on the nose.
See what you actually wrote about the consequences of war which is actually some what introduced in the first KOTOR I actually really liked the idea of but I don't think KOTOR 2 does it right at all, and I think that's why I don't like it at all, it has such good ideas that don't at all feel fulfilled. And largely because I don't think it actually properly examines if what Revan and the Exile did were reasonable, because the game lauds the protagonists too much it ends up to me undermining the point of the game, Revan and the Exile were war criminals and it never feels like it properly examines that. Also Atton's writing with the whole "I had to kill her cus I loved her" thing is just... awful writing. It's not examining how people can be made into people who do awful crimes and redeemed, it's just kind of sickening. I feel like if you want a good character writing for someon who is trying to redeem themselves and analyses if they really can be redeemed, I'd say Blackwall is from Dragon Age Inquisition is a much better look at that idea, also cus they don't try to gloss over the bad thing he did either.
No. I'd pick other shows and movies over it. The Clone Wars, Mandalorian, Rogue One... just to name a few. Best games though (KOTOR 2 and SWTOR included), I agree with that.
I won't argue about the bad writing in that Atton line!
But the game doesn't really examine redemption in the same way as other Star Wars media because I don't think it's really interested in it. It treats what the main character did on Malachor as an atrocity that can't be fixed or healed, even if you choose to walk a better path during the game. Irrespective of whether you're remorseful about it or whether you've chosen to rationalise it, you're forced to confront what you've done in the end.
And beyond Malachor the weight of what your character did expresses itself in a number of ways: in the cave scenes on Korriban, where you relive the horrible decisions that brought you to this point; in the fact that your psychic damage from the battle utterly destroyed your connection to the force; in the way that, instead of shooting lightning or hurling rocks, your unique force ability is that you're a charismatic leader - and one who compels otherwise decent people (most notably Bao-Dur) to go against their better nature and commit horrible crimes. The parallels between you and Nihilus, who devastates worlds, drains them of life and sucks the survivors into his destructive orbit, are extremely clear.
So I don't think it lauds the Exile at all. You can choose to forgive yourself or whatever but it's treated as entirely secondary to the damage your character has done to themselves and others, which continues to ripple outwards. Which is more interesting than the whole falling/returning to the light cycle that characterises most of the saga IMO!
And beyond Malachor the weight of what your character did expresses itself in a number of ways: in the cave scenes on Korriban, where you relive the horrible decisions that brought you to this point; in the fact that your psychic damage from the battle utterly destroyed your connection to the force; in the way that, instead of shooting lightning or hurling rocks, your unique force ability is that you're a charismatic leader - and one who compels otherwise decent people (most notably Bao-Dur) to go against their better nature and commit horrible crimes. The parallels between you and Nihilus, who devastates worlds, drains them of life and sucks the survivors into his destructive orbit, are extremely clear.
So I don't think it lauds the Exile at all. You can choose to forgive yourself or whatever but it's treated as entirely secondary to the damage your character has done to themselves and others, which continues to ripple outwards. Which is more interesting than the whole falling/returning to the light cycle that characterises most of the saga IMO!
I do think there's parts of the writing is done well so I would agree with some of the stuff you mention but it still feels like there's too much that undermines it, and I think there's a hesistance to examine if Revan's and Exiles actions were actually necessary. I like some of the ideas but it feels like a game which has good points and ideas but really needed a do over or 2nd draft to really land what they were going for. Mind you, the Revan worship is worse than the Exile lauding, and it's so annoying, makes me want to hit my head against the desk.
And when I mention redemption, I don't mean the normal Star Wars were now they are light side and all's good, I mean examine can they be redeemed and what it looks like to make amends - kinda like restorative justice? As you mention all the companions are war criminals, more could have gone in to that. Like I can fully understand the parts you like as I like them too but the other stuff just turned me off more so I ended up just being disappointed probably more at what it could have been than anything else. And also while I don't think it needed the traditional Star Wars turn to the light side redemption, I felt it missed having at least a bit of hope that I think is a necessary part of Star Wars. Not that it needed to suddenly be light toned or anything just a bit of hope since it's so dark in tone throughout. Could be due to how they were rushed at the end though
It could have had the potential to be if 2 stuck the landing. It's hard to call 1.5 complete Star Wars games the best media in the franchise when the OT exists.
Revan becomes a significantly better character in KotOR 2 IMO, because that game actually delves into some of Revan's backstory, motivations, ideas, etc. While in KOTOR 1 Revan was a nothing character by design because their character had to be molded by the player. I'm always baffled by how many people who (apparently) only played the first game (or don't like the second game) and hype up Revan.
Like, Revan was nothing in KOTOR, all you (canonically) learned about Revan was that (s)he was a Jedi who fell to the dark side and became the leader of a big, evil army who wanted to find a big space weapon to build a bigger army.
People love Revan because they got to completely mold the character as they saw fit in the SW universe. They left enough vague while having a backstory, that folks were happy to create the ideal Revan in their mind. Many took issue with the later entries because it warped their perceptions of their perfectly crafted Revan and how they saw him/her. The simple background was just that, what they did after the character's "reset" is all that mattered to them.
I don't know on that last bit because that includes Outbound Flight which is both hard to get through and just a strange non star wars story in many ways (most Thrawn stuff is very enjoyable though).
i think in terms of raw time i've invested more in the x-wing/tie fighter stuff
but it's really good, if not the best then almost there
but it's really good, if not the best then almost there
This is absolutely fair enough. It's a game with a very specific, often ugly vibe and it won't work for everyone.
I think it works for me because so much Star Wars media emphasises hope when the actual overarching Star Wars narrative is about a forever war between two religious factions that typically quiets down for a couple decades here and there before starting up all over again, killing shitloads of people in the process. I loved the first KOTOR but it's a (very well done) retread of this basic conflict. In its choice to focus on the guilt and trauma that can come out of participating in that kind of war, it does push the question of making amends, seeking justice etc to the sidelines.
I think it was a good choice - some things just can't be put right - but it's also an abrasive and alienating one and I can get why it didn't work for you!
I think it works for me because so much Star Wars media emphasises hope when the actual overarching Star Wars narrative is about a forever war between two religious factions that typically quiets down for a couple decades here and there before starting up all over again, killing shitloads of people in the process. I loved the first KOTOR but it's a (very well done) retread of this basic conflict. In its choice to focus on the guilt and trauma that can come out of participating in that kind of war, it does push the question of making amends, seeking justice etc to the sidelines.
I think it was a good choice - some things just can't be put right - but it's also an abrasive and alienating one and I can get why it didn't work for you!
It's the only thing that made me really feel like I was living in star wars. I'm sure some of it is rose tinted glasses, I realize it's not a perfect game, and parts of it have aged poorly, but like him, it's my favorite piece of star wars media.
I don't agree, because i havent played it LOL.
For me the best thing Star Wars is:
(The music)
Rogue One
Mandalorian
The last Jedi
Empire
In that order, and that's it. All other SW stuff range from "meh" to "garbage" for me.
For me the best thing Star Wars is:
(The music)
Rogue One
Mandalorian
The last Jedi
Empire
In that order, and that's it. All other SW stuff range from "meh" to "garbage" for me.
If we group KOTOR 2 with the original, it's easily in the top 10. KOTOR 2 did what countless other pieces of Star Wars media have tried to do but ultimately failed, and it did it effortlessly.
That was partly due to mandates by Lucasfilm at the time, Bioware had planned to make the setting look less advanced and bigger differences but were shot down.
It's an issue I think a lo of higher ups for works like Star Wars have (Star Trek Enterprise suffered due to a lot of this as well) and I personally feel it does a disservice to the audience who I feel would accept it overall as long as the work was still good.
Last edited:
It's a good game, a bit like the TLJ, where there are interesting things going on, but something feels missing..
Disagree, it didn't nail the landing because they had to rush it, and it really shows. Fans have tried to amend this, but the levels they made aren't that fun, (HK 47 factory, the robot world) but I appreciate the effort.
It's definitely up there. I would say the ending with the Rakata/Star Forge always felt a bit over the top and meh to me, but overall it's a quintessential Star Wars experience and really for me still stands as the story that most closely captures that OT feeling. The overall story, characters and interactions with them, it really was a fantastic game that delivered an awesome experience that felt like a whole trilogy of films in one game.
KotoR2 is all the better because of it as they provide two very different approaches and takes on the Star Wars franchise as a whole, while being in the same series and same general gameplay/structure. KotoR is this very classic, almost story book, OT Star Wars experience while 2 is this much more hard deconstruction of Star Wars. I don't think 2 would be at all as powerful a game and experience had 1 not come before it. They compliment one another very well.
KotoR2 is all the better because of it as they provide two very different approaches and takes on the Star Wars franchise as a whole, while being in the same series and same general gameplay/structure. KotoR is this very classic, almost story book, OT Star Wars experience while 2 is this much more hard deconstruction of Star Wars. I don't think 2 would be at all as powerful a game and experience had 1 not come before it. They compliment one another very well.
That's me. The story of 2 is superior, but obviously 1 paved the way for 2 to be what it is.
Yeah, I get that, but then I don't get the absolute fan adoration for making Revan canon, because 'canon Revan' (at least, if we would discount KotOR2 and The Old Republic) is nothing. It's an idea of a character, but not a character in and of her/himself.
I think the combat hasn't aged well at all (even at the time it was clunky as fuck) and that's seriously holding back the greatness of the game.
Folks don't realize what they are asking for, they just love the Revan in their mind.
And to make anything canon is so questionable now as to what extent are we talking of? Technically Revan is already canon, he was meant to be in the Clone Wars and the visual guide for TROS makes mention of him. But are we making KOTOR canon also? KOTOR II? TOR? The Revan novel? Any time they ask for anyone old EU to be made canon is odd since so far they keep changing the canon. Thrawn is canon, but it's not the same Thrawn they all loved, they created a new Thrawn to fit in. They keep tweaking canon. So it's odd for any old EU to be "made canon" when it's really just making new versions of old concepts
These are curious takes to me when Kreia is very transparently a vessel for the writer's feelings on the Star Wars mythos. Both the Jedi and the Sith are established as borderline hilariously indefensible institutions by the writing of unsympathetic, shallow characters that represent them. You can tell me that Kreia's views aren't supposed to be "true" according to the story all you want, but the story fails to provide compelling counter-arguments in the form of characters or plot development, and it does this very intentionally. What the game ultimately suggests is that Kreia is wrong about her methodology but right about her analysis of the power struggle of the SW universe and the actors within it. It is not "the Jedi are right to counter the Sith but need to reform or we need an alternative institution" but rather the idea of the Jedi itself and what that represents is irredeemable.
This is why Kreia espouses her brand of centrism, which is in essence a Machiavellian ruthlessness and pragmatism. "Good things aren't possible from idealists, actually" is apparently what passes for quality writing in this series.
Kreia, and the discourse surrounding her, frustrates me in particular because I do think KOTOR 2 has a lot of good writing in it. I actually quite like the game...whenever it is NOT focusing on Kreia, who is one of the worst parts of it.
The gameplay is very dated, and it takes quite a bit of time to really get going. Even with the restoration mod it's still busted to hell and back. And it doesn't have a real ending.
Still worth it.