Every time I hear female now I cringe a bit because of what I've read here. Same for people using African American instead of black.
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Do people just not use the word "female" anymore?
- Thread starter 808s & Villainy
- Start date
And Native American. I've done a bunch of work on tribal lands and I've literally never heard someone refer to anyone that way.
Still wasn't sure about that. I know the writers I've been reading who are native use Indian but wasn't sure if it was disrespectful for non-natives to use it.
They're different situations because there really isn't an English equivalent for gendered articles, while "female"/"male" can be directly translated between all of the languages we're talking about. English speakers can't really be weirded out by, say, Portuguese gendered articles in an English discussion board because you literally can't translate those into English, haha.
Besides, gendered articles are fucking weird, yes, but they're not really about 'gender' - they're merely a limitation of some Latin-based languages that lack a neutral article such as "The". Things end up being ascribed 'genders' because our genius antecessors were fucking weirdos.
I understand the differences between English and Latin-based languages. I was merely bringing in another perspective on the subject - one that explains why a lot of non-native English speakers also frown upon the usage of "female" as described by the OP.
I haven't had a reason to test that and I haven't asked. I've only used 'members', but I've never had to refer to different tribes than the one I was talking to.
Using woman as an adjective feels as weird to me as using female as a noun. The idea that because a certain group likes to fuck it up on one front means more people should fuck it up the other way around is also weird.
Late take, probably covered numerous times already:
When someone says something about "females" the rest of the sentence is almost always some misogyny-tinged cringe. It's not even mostly incels you see do it. It's a lot of just....dudes. If that's you, TRUST ME, that shit ain't a good look.
Also, it sounds like you are talking about an animal.
Also it is less inclusive than "woman".
When someone says something about "females" the rest of the sentence is almost always some misogyny-tinged cringe. It's not even mostly incels you see do it. It's a lot of just....dudes. If that's you, TRUST ME, that shit ain't a good look.
Also, it sounds like you are talking about an animal.
Also it is less inclusive than "woman".
As a non-native English speaker, I'd use it both as an adjective and as a noun solely to refer to non-humans.
My daughter has degu mice. They had babies. 4 were females/female, 4 were males/male.
But my daughter is neither "female" nor "a female".
My daughter has degu mice. They had babies. 4 were females/female, 4 were males/male.
But my daughter is neither "female" nor "a female".
I think that's a unique case as Kamala is the first female vice president. Using woman instead of female focusses more on her identiy which is the focus in this whole thing. It just sounds more grand and big to me. Don't know if I would use it in any other context.
It's just the difference between sex and gender.
I suppose it's because my undergrad was in sociology (and some gender studies) that I understand the difference in use.
One assumes that the biological sex of women with vaginas, the other the gender attributes of being a woman.
I suppose it's because my undergrad was in sociology (and some gender studies) that I understand the difference in use.
One assumes that the biological sex of women with vaginas, the other the gender attributes of being a woman.
There is no general rule for non-native English speakers. Both your native language and the context in which you learned English influence how you use the words.
For example, my native language is Chinese. I find it perfectly natural to use male and female as adjectives for humans. This is because 男 and 女 are human specific adjectives in Chinese (we also use them for intelligent non-humans in fantasy/science fiction stories). We use 公、雄 for male animals and 母、雌 for female animals. Because 1. English only uses male and female; 2. there are non-gendered nouns for humans; and 3. there are occasions to associate a person's gender with those non-gendered nouns, I assumed there is no issue attaching male and female as adjectives to a human--until I read this thread, at least.
i don't as a noun. in certain situations it seems like the most appropriate adjective
however, it's kind of a technical term referring to biology, i'd rather refer to people in terms of gender identity
however, it's kind of a technical term referring to biology, i'd rather refer to people in terms of gender identity
My first language is French and second is Japanese. Japanese is the one I've been speaking mainly for the past 20 years.
In both languages there is a clear difference between man/woman and male/female.
The French for man is "homme", the Japanese is 男 or 男性.
The French for woman is "femme", the Japanese is 女 or 女性 although if used alone 女 is derogatory.
The French for male is "mâle", the Japanese is 雄, both only used to talk about non-humans. In Japanese 雄 can sometimes be used to ridicule someone who can't control his impulses.
The French for female is "femelle", the Japanese is 雌. Both are used only for non-humans and saying "femelle" or 雌 for a woman in either language is extremely derogatory.
(By the way, the character 公 is used too but it means "public". 母 is also used but means "mother" and is often used to speak about human beings.)
What caught me off guard when I used to teach freshman Women's Studies courses was that the students would come in using female as a noun. So I'd hear things like "females are burdened by the sexual double standard" or "Black females face more problems than white females because of the intersection of race and gender". And it wasn't an anomaly, because I taught that course for 4 years and ever year it was the same.
I just assumed that teachers are telling them to use "female" as a noun in high school nowadays.
Oh, and yes, these are classes where 99% of the students were (cis)-women and they didn't seem to have any issue using female as a noun.
I just assumed that teachers are telling them to use "female" as a noun in high school nowadays.
Oh, and yes, these are classes where 99% of the students were (cis)-women and they didn't seem to have any issue using female as a noun.
I can assure you in my native language female is exclusively used for animals and using it to refer to a human both as an adjective or a noun is an insult and belittling.
Nobody will ever say the equivalent in French outside of very specific rowdy jokes. Like, even the worst incels don't. Describing animals, sure. But humans, never (we don't really use "male" either, we prefer masculine / feminine, much more acceptable).
So, hearing it used in english always felt extremely weird to me. So i obviously don't use it myself and the less i hear it, the better.
So, hearing it used in english always felt extremely weird to me. So i obviously don't use it myself and the less i hear it, the better.
looks like era has changed its tune since the last time we discussed this topic. not that i'm complaining!
I think it's a bit more acceptable to use it than femelle, but, it's still rarely used and only in a few situations.
At the same time, it's in our national anthem 😁 (in its sixth verse)
And it's the name of a perfume:La Marseillaise said:
I don't remember if my middle school English teacher properly explained that it could only be used as an adjective (it was a long time ago), but I remember how weird it was when she explained that 'female' could be used to speak about women, and 'male' about men in English. She did remind us that we should never use them in French to speak about humans.
In international contexts, I always find this conversation very Anglocentric. That is because in other languages the relation between "woman" and "female" can be very different, such as in my native Norwegian where a single word is mostly used for both. Therefore, it can be natural when translating their thoughts over to English to use the words in a way different from what a native speaker would. Same with using "woman" and "girl", which was discussed in another thread.
Getting the intuition that native speakers have takes years of exposure in everyday life, and many English speakers may mostly be exposed to it through formal documents at work, where "female" appears as a noun. Stigmatizing the use of the word and creating negative assumptions about the user can therefore be unfair to someone with English as a second language. So it's fine if this conversation is held between native English speakers, but due to its status as a Lingua Franca we should be more flexible in certain contexts.
Getting the intuition that native speakers have takes years of exposure in everyday life, and many English speakers may mostly be exposed to it through formal documents at work, where "female" appears as a noun. Stigmatizing the use of the word and creating negative assumptions about the user can therefore be unfair to someone with English as a second language. So it's fine if this conversation is held between native English speakers, but due to its status as a Lingua Franca we should be more flexible in certain contexts.
It feels really gross to me when people refer to me as "a female." Especially when it's used like "well now the men have to get used to working with a female" or "I shouldn't have to work with a female" or "females are more emotional, men are better at this." They don't call themselves males but they won't extend non objectifying nouns to me and it feels so derogatory and scuzzy. I genuinely hate it and hope it continues to fade more.
As a noun very rarely, but certainly as an adjective. It's extremely strange how some people use 'woman' or 'women' as adjectives in a way they'd never use 'man' or 'men' as an adjective. Then again in a lot of cases where yo could use 'female' as an adjective, it's often not necessarily to mention gender/sex at all.
So as it were, woman doctor = wrong, female doctor = fine, but is it necessary to specify?
So as it were, woman doctor = wrong, female doctor = fine, but is it necessary to specify?
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He's saying that you need to include a species for it to make sense. But then you'd say the first human female president which is redundant and sounds terrible.
By omitting the species it sound like you could be referring to female of any species which is probably why incels do it. They don't want to refer to women as being part of the same species as men.
Ahhh right that makes sense. Ive certainly used female/male when describing morphological differences in animal species or in certain cases when I was discussing clinical trial results but it certainly wouldn't work as a noun to use in real life. Like "unknown female" does work but "unknown woman" works better.
It was initially the name of a mixtape, and then a tag line for a "movement" started after the rapper Nipsey Hussle was murdered, however hoteps co-opted the tag line and they have a habit of being misogynistic.
I never used it but once I realized how much women hate being called that I made sure never to use it.
I think you're being too literal in your translations. If I see 女性アーティスト, I'm not going to translate that as "woman artist". It's "female artist".
People can't tell the difference between adjectives and nouns in English, so it's all or nothing for them. It is what it is.
What would she call a groups of young girls, teen girls, women and old women? I would call them "a group of females".
Male and female can both be used as nouns and adjective. "Men" and "women" are perfectly fine nouns but inadequate when describing groups consisting of gender x of all age groups.
That's a group of women. Calling such a group "females" is reducing them to a biological function or capacity, which some simply do not have and definitely should not be defined by.
If you said that in casual conversation it'd sound very strange to me.
Women might not be the most apt descriptor but to me it's certainly better than saying "a group of females."
OP
OP
I honestly just defer to the oldest in the group so if it was just girls "A group of girls", but if there were adults mixed in "A group of women" suffices
It does feel like it's been tainted a bit, so I would probably only use it in certain specific circumstances.
English is not my first language but isn't the meaning of "women" implicitly that is's adult females?
I like "ladies". Whenever i would have to use "female" or "females", i say "lady"/"ladies" instead. So : "a group of ladies".
Sounds better and much less weird to my ears.
OP
OP
Even if it was your first language there would still be no consensus lol. English is all over the place. So I'll say that's generally the case, but not always, contextually.
And you just used "female" as a noun, which kind of illustrates the point. It should be "adult women" even though you might be thinking that's redundant
child to teen = Girl
Female adult = Woman
Groups of the above = Girls or Women
Use "female" as an adjective when you need clarity, ie: "I would prefer a female nurse if possible".
I can understand people who have a language barrier, but ultimately it's not complex.
Female adult = Woman
Groups of the above = Girls or Women
Use "female" as an adjective when you need clarity, ie: "I would prefer a female nurse if possible".
I can understand people who have a language barrier, but ultimately it's not complex.